Rising Fuel Cost -How much and how fast will it change our lives?

[antiZOG]

Fuel prices are soaring...my question is what are your thoughts, as this trend continues, in what ways will it change life in the USA, and how much and how soon? Any predictions? ..looking for any angles I may have missed, including effects on WN movement.

[odin]

Fuel prices are soaring...my question is what are your thoughts, as this trend continues, in what ways will it change life in the USA, and how much and how soon? Any predictions? ..looking for any angles I may have missed, including effects on WN movement.Look for $3/gallon gas by the end of this year. If GW attacks Iran it will hit $5/gallon a few weeks afterwards. Home heating oil prices will explode as well this winter.

How will it change life here? Less disposable income; some families barely able to hang on; possible depression (in a year or two); higher unemployment (a lot of smaller companies won't be able to stay in business).

For WN, well, there will be an angry population that could easily come to see the root cause of their problems, and react accordingly.

[n9odi]

I hope to see less SUVs and Trucks (the ones that aren't actually used for work, and no a bunch of junk in the back or towing a boat once a year doesn't count). I can't stand those mall yachts. I wouldn't mind paying double what I pay now for gas so that I don't have to share the road with them. I also hope to see less of those annoying semi trucks. Then we'll see how the jew car companies will like it when cars/trucks are useless. Too bad they had ruin the rail road system to get rid of the competition when mass transportation was just starting.

On one hand I want to keep enjoying my life right now as it is, but on the other hand I want to see the drastic changes brought on by the oil peak. Things will sure get interesting, and people will finally realize their ignorance.

Also I think that as conditions deteriorate due to lack of oil which we depend on like parasites on a host, the jews will have less control over us. I'd like to hear everyone's predictions on what jew control will be like once oil is not easily available.

[Alex Linder]

Means less travel. Gas now $2.38 here, higher than I've ever seen.

[T.Garrett]

Gasoline in NYC is already $3.00 a gallon for premium (self-serve) …well over $3.00 for full serve …

Guess I wont be driving my Ferrari around town much anymore (jk …siobhain :D )
Cheers

[JoeSixPack]

$2.60 for regular here. I'm sure it's just a coincidence these last two weeks of summer are the most heavily traveled of the year.
Gas is $2.64 in my neck of the woods (N.GA)

Hopefully, my job will survive if it hits $4-5+.

[Oy Ze Hate]

And the oil barrens still have the gall to tell us that prices are lower than the early 1980's if adjusted for inflation.

Hey campers, did you hear about the record profits at the BigPetro? That's right, stockholders, CEO's and the various office jockeys at BigPetro are really raking it in. Wonder how that could be since, as prices climb ever higher on daily basis, the oil companies report dwindling oil reserves and rising costs of productions.

Clinton, for all his faults, reigned over oil barrels which cost 10 dollars each. Bush? The nation wrecker and his jewish neo-con handlers are hosing us with oil barrels at 64 dollas each?

A 640 percent increase in a matter of years. Unbelievable, itz.

So, the oil companies stock prices are shooting to the moon and yet these rising costs at the pump are supposedly associated with rising costs in production. Sounds kind of fishy. Sounds like the only thing going up is what they charge, as opposed to what they pay to turn sweet crude into 87 octane gasoline. Eh? Or maybe I'm oversimplifying. But the record profits still stinks. More like record price-gouging.

The oil industry is in an epic time of price collusion, and this is what is causing consumers to get shafted everytime they fill up their tanks. Buck Fush! And buck the neo-cons who got us into this quagmire for Israel. GD jews. GD jews. GD jews!

I don't know what it's going to lead to but I can see a lot of people buying Honda electric hybrids and forcing all auto makers to focus their efforts on maximum efficiency. All these gas-guzzling trucks and SUV's and other American monstrosities will hopefully start disappearing into the airplane graveyards where they belong.

Look for a big increase in car-pooling, buses, rail systems, and other things people must inevitably do when gas gets above 3 dollars a gallon. But look at it this way, in super-crowded Europe they pay well over 5 dollars a gallong already. I am pissed.

NO MORE OIL INDUSTRY PRICE COLLUSION. BACK TO COMPETITION AND FAIR DEALINGS WITH THE PUBLIC. YOU'VE HAD YOUR RECORD YEAR NOW GIVE US GAS AT 1.50 OR WE'LL REVOLT.

Or not.

[odin]

Means less travel. Gas now $2.38 here, higher than I've ever seen.$2.55 today in Ohio.

[n9odi]

You can always ride a bike. Those chinks should have kept doing that instead of starting to buy cars and competing in the quest for more oil.

Anyone ever read about Stanley Meyer? His device claims to run a car on pure water. It splits water into hydrogen and oxygen which then gets injected into the engine instead of gasoline. I've seen a video of his device in action, and no doubt about it the device's efficiency of splitting water can't be compared to any other standard electrolysis methods. Lots of close minded people refuse to hear anything about it because their world is based on theories and numbers which they think will always be right and are impossible to break. Of course I can't be 100% sure that it works, but I'm more certain than people that keep repeating that it's not possible to fuel a car by water like a parrot without actually doing a bit of research into the topic. I have confidence in this guy or at least the technology he's utilizing. There are scammers that try to exploit things like this by selling stupid plans that are either free or don't work, but he's not one of them. THere's scammers in every field. He's simply working on an invention and when he's done he'll begin selling conversion kits. I've gotten 2 lawn mower engines I plan to test this out on later.

[JoeSixPack]

Meyer sounds jewy.

I tend to be real suspicious-like about "free-energy devices".

Let's see one in action, then I'll believe.

[n9odi]

That's what I'll try to do. If I can make it work I'll definitely make a well documented report about it with as much media as I can provide to make it easy for other's to replicate. I have nothing to loose except a little bit of time, and a bit of money. If I don't succeed then oh well it would be a fun experience either way. And if I do succeed that would be a very small investment for a big return. I'd then proceed to modify a car.

[Fritz Kuhn]

In Europe, where taxes are higher, gas prices have historically been double that in the US. As a result, people take more mass transportation and have smaller cars.

http://www.whig.com/311184795422523.php

"Reis said the price of gas in the United States still pales in comparison to some parts of Europe. Reis said he and his family were recently in Italy, and the price of gas figured out to between $7 and $8 of American money per gallon."

[n9odi]

I just remembered something quite important I'd like to recommend regarding gas prices.

I add 2.5-3 oz of Acetone to my 10 gallon tank and I get a huge boost in performance and mpg. Without it the most I'd get is 270 miles out of 10 gallons, now I get about 320-350 (I still haven't tested the perfect ammount). The ammount that should be added varies between 2-4 oz per 10 gallons.

There's much more on this topic at some of the following links:
http://pesn.com/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/
http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/

I won't go into the details because they are all on those links and it's too much to talk about. But I'd recommend you try it, there is 0 risk with this and it can even be used in diesel trucks.

This is not a scam like the stupid mothballs myth and other junk out there that comes from urban legends. This is an actual improvement with tons of research about it (check the links or google). Some people are afraid, but I've already done 1000+ miles on it. I'm so confident there's absolutely no risk that I'd even put it in a 100,000 dollar car if I had one.

If you people don't believe me I can even make a video of me pouring it in my tank though I don't think that would be necessary. If you live in the Florida Sarasota area then you can even come and see the difference on my shitty ford 4 cylinder lol. I even got a scangauge ( http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/72fc/ ) to see the actual difference with and without acetone.

I have a friend that also tried this in a camry 4 cyl and got even a bigger boost in performance and mileage than I did.

[odin]

I add 2.5-3 oz of Acetone to my 10 gallon tank and I get a huge boost in performance and mpg.That accelerates wear out of seals, and you'll get the same performance boost by switching to higher octane gas. I don't know how much you're spending on the acetone, but it's probably more than the extra 2 dollars or so per tank that premium gas costs.

[n9odi]

That accelerates wear out of seals, and you'll get the same performance boost by switching to higher octane gas. I don't know how much you're spending on the acetone, but it's probably more than the extra 2 dollars or so per tank that premium gas costs.
Did you even bother reading those links before commenting?

Acetone mixed with gasoline in such low amounts does not eat away the seals or any fuel line components any more than gasoline does. Do an experiment. Take 2 jars, and fill them with various seal/fuel components in them. Fill one with regular gasoline and the other with 25% acetone and 75% gasoline which is nowhere close to the ratio used for normal improvement. And let them soak for a month, see the results yourself.

This isn't some free-energy device or something that isn't tested. People drive their cars with this for well over 100,000 miles without any problems from things that get in contact with acetone.

I've tried higher octane gasoline and it does not give a boost like this. Acetone reduces the surface tension of gasoline and aids in it's evaporation. Higher octane gasoline burns differently. They are different things. You're still wasting unburned gasoline no matter which grade you choose.

I bought a gallon sized can of 100% pure Acetone for only 12 dollars at home depot. That's enough to fill up at least 40 tanks. It's quite obvious which is cheaper, that is IF higher octane was actually another means of achieving the same results in the first place.

[Proud White Guy]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/ene_coa_con

I blame it on 2 things.

1) The tree huggers that fight everytime someone wants to drill for oil.

2) This ridiculous population explosion all over the earth, namely the muds. They use gas too.

There are other factors such as China, used to export oil, they are now an importer of oil.

By the way my friends, thats how WW2 started for us. The Japs were invading China, to take its oil wells, but FDR, put econmic santions on them. Thats how Pearl Harbor got bombed. Another fact, they don't teach you in skool.

China's economy has gotten so big, mainly due to all these jackoffs, buying all the cheap shit they make from Wal-Mart, and other places. Keep buying all that cheap shit, not only are you contributing to China's expansion. You are also hastening the loss of American jobs.

This is a worldwide problem. Don't blame Whitey, we are only about 8% of the global population.

The solution would be to start drilling for more oil. The hell with the tree huggers. Better yet, fire up the ovens and thin out the herd a little, and we would not be having these problems.

I also think we should just take Iraq, make it the 51st state, and just take the fuckin oil. We are already over there, we might as well.

Iraq happens to be the 2nd largest producer of oil in the middleeast, and they are so screwed up, they are rationing oil over there.

I'm against the war, mainly because all we are doing, is protecting the jews, but since we're there. Let's just take it.

We might as well thake the oil.

[Rob Roy MacGregor]

$2.55 today in Ohio.

$2.75-$2.99 in Washington State here.

[SA Mann]

$3 a gallon is a real possibility by December. In Virginia where I live it is running around $2.38-$2.45 for regular unleaded. Towards Richmond it is $2.50 to $2.60.

One downside for us is there will be less people attending events and willing to drive around tossing out VNN papers.

It is ashame that in many areas train tracks have been ripped up. It would costs millions to put that infrastructure back.

Maybe all this stuff will wake some people up but I'm not holding my breath. Who would have thought that damn W moron would have been re-elected?

[John in Woodbridge]

It's not just your transportation, but the entire economy runs on oil. If and when the shit fits the fan the only positive I can see out of this is that it weakens ZOG a great deal.

[panskin]

In Europe, where taxes are higher, gas prices have historically been double that in the US. As a result, people take more mass transportation and have smaller cars.

http://www.whig.com/311184795422523.php

"Reis said the price of gas in the United States still pales in comparison to some parts of Europe. Reis said he and his family were recently in Italy, and the price of gas figured out to between $7 and $8 of American money per gallon."

That's because Europe has a highly developed mass transit system which the U.S. does not. Also the U.S. is massively larger. In the western U.S. people are forced to travel longer distances. I live in the country where it is a 40-50 mile trip (one way) to the nearest town . In an economically depressed area such as mine which has been over run with mexcrement because of the corporate meat packing plants which has led a majority of anglo businesses that were here to close (causing difficulties finding decent paying jobs for whites because the racist mexcrement import all their fucking cousings from mexico), wages to fall, and housing costs to soar out of proportion to what one can earn this spells major trouble. I'm now forced to make a decision of moving to a city where I can find a decent paying job or staying in my home to take care of my aged parents and being forced to live on what work I can find.

Obviously my personal habits have changed as all the little things I used to do such as go for a drive or go to town for dinner have all stopped. This is really beginning to suck. On the upside, at least I don't have to see all the mexiturd invaders or worry about getting shot driving down the street.

For the record, fuel prices are 2.60+

[Steve B]

Means less travel. Gas now $2.38 here, higher than I've ever seen.

It means quite a bit more than that, Alex. Unless one is a hermit living in a cave in northern Idaho everything will become more expensive because nearly everything you have is brought to you by truck. The food you eat, the clothes you wear, the materials that make up your house, the car you drive and hundreds of other products were shipped to Kirksville, Mo via the trucking industry. When their costs rise they pass those costs onto the consumer. I won't even go into the products that are made from oil like plastics, chemical fertilizers, rubber, pharmaceuticals, etc.

The majority of people don't realize that it is not just gas that is going up in price, it's everything!

P.S. Over 3 bucks a gallon in Cali.

[Jenab]

It means quite a bit more than that, Alex. Unless one is a hermit living in a cave in northern Idaho everything will become more expensive because nearly everything you have is brought to you by truck. The food you eat, the clothes you wear, the materials that make up your house, the car you drive and hundreds of other products were shipped to Kirksville, Mo via the trucking industry. When their costs rise they pass those costs onto the consumer. I won't even go into the products that are made from oil like plastics, chemical fertilizers, rubber, pharmaceuticals, etc.

The majority of people don't realize that it is not just gas that is going up in price, it's everything!

P.S. Over 3 bucks a gallon in Cali.
I'm a semi-hermit living on a hill in West Virginia. For the past several years, I've been anticipating fossil fuel depletion and preparing to be a full-time hermit sitting on my porch, munching homegrown apples, walnuts, potatoes and sprouted triticale, reading books and shooting an occasional trespasser, while the world around me goes to hell and people run to and fro, eating each other and grass and looking under rocks for tasty bugs. I warned them, but they didn't listen, and their blood shall be upon them. Amen.

[n9odi]

Why doesn't anyone pay attention to the acetone suggestion? Sure it's not a solution, but it does help. It's saved me at least 20 dollars so far, and give me a more pleasant driving experience.

[Vikinkur]

Well it depends..

If its 8% decrease every year, its 0.92 fucked up with the amount of years, so in ten years we will have 0.434 left.

If its 3% every years it's 0.97 fucked up with (x^"y" on your calculator) so lets take ten years again then it's 0.737 left of the ECONOMY.


The halftime is a magic 70 / the percentiage so 70/3 =23 years point 3.

And with 8% it's 70/ 8 =8 point 75 years.

that's something huh? things will cost 50% more AND we will have 50% less income in EIGHT YEARS AND NINE MONTHS IF 8 PERCENT ANUAL DECREASE OF AVIABLE OIL

(I'm not a jew. :D)



:cheers:

:D


IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE! PEAKOIL IS FINALLY HERE!

[Proud White Guy]

http://www.dieoff.org/

I still maintain, there's just to damn many mud people on the planet.

Not only are they too stupid, and irresponsible to use the technology the White Man has given them.

Their numbers are creating shotages, and raising the demand and pricing of everything. Not to mention doing ridiculous things, like burning down the rain forests.

There are over a billion, chinese, indians, and niggers. Thats over half the worlds population, and their pop is doubling at an alarming rate.

Lets say each of them has two kids, and thats a gross underestimation. We now have, 6 billion on the planet, thats 12 billion on the planet,for the next generation,then next generation will have 24 billion, the next 48 billion.

We really do need to thin out the herd, and NOW!!!!

Ths only race that has the brains to understand this, are us Whites. Most of the Whites I know only have 1,2, or 3 kids, barely replacing ourselves.

While the shitskin dummies, are poppin em out like cockroaches. Thats the problem, and they are going to destroy the planet.

[n9odi]

We really do need to thin out the herd, and NOW!!!!.
It looks like AIDS was a good start, but we need to make something better. :D

[YANKEE_JIM]

Fuel prices are soaring...my question is what are your thoughts, as this trend continues, in what ways will it change life in the USA, and how much and how soon?


July Inflation Jumps on Higher Gas Prices (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050816/D8C10IS80.html)


http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/ECONOMY.sff_NY812_20050816105051.jpg
An unidentified motorist swipes his credit card to pay for gasoline at a station in Denver Monday, Aug. 15, 2005. Consumer prices shot up 0.5 percent in July, reflecting sharply higher prices for gasoline and other energy products the COmmerce Department reported Tuesday, Aug. 16, 2005.


ITZ COMING! ;)

-Yankee Jim

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

I just remembered something quite important I'd like to recommend regarding gas prices.

I add 2.5-3 oz of Acetone to my 10 gallon tank and I get a huge boost in performance and mpg. Without it the most I'd get is 270 miles out of 10 gallons, now I get about 320-350 (I still haven't tested the perfect ammount). The ammount that should be added varies between 2-4 oz per 10 gallons.

There's much more on this topic at some of the following links:
http://pesn.com/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/
http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/

I won't go into the details because they are all on those links and it's too much to talk about. But I'd recommend you try it, there is 0 risk with this and it can even be used in diesel trucks.

This is not a scam like the stupid mothballs myth and other junk out there that comes from urban legends. This is an actual improvement with tons of research about it (check the links or google). Some people are afraid, but I've already done 1000+ miles on it. I'm so confident there's absolutely no risk that I'd even put it in a 100,000 dollar car if I had one.

If you people don't believe me I can even make a video of me pouring it in my tank though I don't think that would be necessary. If you live in the Florida Sarasota area then you can even come and see the difference on my shitty ford 4 cylinder lol. I even got a scangauge ( http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/72fc/ ) to see the actual difference with and without acetone.

I have a friend that also tried this in a camry 4 cyl and got even a bigger boost in performance and mileage than I did.

interesting topic. could you start a thread on this in the science and tech section and expand on this?

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

2.90 for premium in flyover.

I know it hurts folks but this works in our favor. If it goes up to 4-5 a gallon, White people will no longer be willing to sit out in the fucking suburbs and let the nigger have downtown. We will see a whole new approach to "urban planning" and the pressure will be on the Republicunts to shitcan the Fair Housing Act and other pro-nigger social schemes which have ruined the cities.

[Chain]

$2.49 a gallon in Greenbank, WV; $3.00 in Marlinton: $1.10 a litre in Tallinn, Estonia.

I hope it crashes the entire economy if it will finally cause Jew-mesmerized White people to wake up.

I heard a woman two days ago- "Randi Rhodes", likely a Jewess herself I believe, (EDIT- I looked it up before posting:..."Just one look, and I knew, knew, knew.." as the song goes..LOL)
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-randi-rhodes-show
Randi is Jewish. Her real name is Randi Robertson.
http://www.760thezone.com/talent/rhodes.html
http://www.am760.net/talent/hs/rhodes.gif
on the radical leftist Air America network interviewing former U.S. security expert Ray McGovern,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ray+mcgovern
http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2004/03/mcgovern_200x203.jpg
and he talked about how he and other Whites (though he didn't call them that) would refer to "the crazies" (neocons) and grouse and bitch about what looniness they'd come up with day by day. So Rhodes and he constantly threw around Wolfowitz' and Perle's names as being the crazies.
(How many people know Perle was on the board of The Jerusalem Post? Very, very few.) Rhodes and Mcgovern all but called them Zionist Jooz. I have come to believe leftists can wake up faster, better, and more finally than loony Krishtuns.

With Sheehan on the TX highway by Jorge Boosh's house and all these other signs- gas prices foremost- things are looking up for Our Movement. No pain; no gain.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

..........
With Sheehan on the TX highway by Jorge Boosh's house and all these other signs- gas prices foremost- things are looking up for Our Movement. No pain; no gain.

Right but we have to be ready to exploit conditions as they worsen. That is where important work like your roving reports are KEY. What can we do to support you Chain and VNN multimedia Chain? What will be the next Chain production? How can we leverage current success into future gains? Those are questions I want people to consider. Not just that "worse is better" but how do we posture ourselves for advancement? Keep in mind that Jews have as many ways of profiting from hardship as they do prosperity-- look at how they advanced during the Great Depression. So we need to be prepared. Semper Paratus.

[JohnAFlynn]

Look for $3/gallon gas by the end of this year. If GW attacks Iran it will hit $5/gallon a few weeks afterwards. Home heating oil prices will explode as well this winter.

How will it change life here? Less disposable income; some families barely able to hang on; possible depression (in a year or two); higher unemployment (a lot of smaller companies won't be able to stay in business).

For WN, well, there will be an angry population that could easily come to see the root cause of their problems, and react accordingly.


Also, consumer goods will severely increase in price, as most goods are transported to the various parts of the country by tractor trailers which run on diesel, which has gone up commensurately with gasoline. Most of these trucks only get about 5 or 6 miles to the gallon, so oil prices significantly impact shipping costs, as you can imagine. This will cause a chain reaction in which many employers will be essentially forced to give raises to some of their more poorly paid employees, just so they can afford gas, and the increased price of goods. I believe it could be a catalyst for hyperinflation.

[TwistedCross]

You can always ride a bike. Those chinks should have kept doing that instead of starting to buy cars and competing in the quest for more oil.

Anyone ever read about Stanley Meyer? His device claims to run a car on pure water. It splits water into hydrogen and oxygen which then gets injected into the engine instead of gasoline. I've seen a video of his device in action, and no doubt about it the device's efficiency of splitting water can't be compared to any other standard electrolysis methods. Lots of close minded people refuse to hear anything about it because their world is based on theories and numbers which they think will always be right and are impossible to break. Of course I can't be 100% sure that it works, but I'm more certain than people that keep repeating that it's not possible to fuel a car by water like a parrot without actually doing a bit of research into the topic. I have confidence in this guy or at least the technology he's utilizing. There are scammers that try to exploit things like this by selling stupid plans that are either free or don't work, but he's not one of them. THere's scammers in every field. He's simply working on an invention and when he's done he'll begin selling conversion kits. I've gotten 2 lawn mower engines I plan to test this out on later.

What you are talking about is basically a form of “cold fusion”. The wall they keep beating their heads against is this…. It takes more energy to split the H2O molecule than the energy you get out of it. So, with that in mind, the process can not be self contained yet.. YET.

In my area they did have a few busses that ran on 100% hydrogen gas for experimentation. The busses themselves were great, quiet, non-polluting and not the least bit slow. But unless the problem with getting vehicles to be self-sufficient (able to produce enough power to make their own hydrogen) then hydrogen powered vehicles are nothing more than fairy tales. It will take massive amounts of money and time to get the infra structure needed at “gas stations” to be able to fill hydrogen tanks

While writing this I had a bit of an epiphany. I was just reading about hybrid cars getting 250mpg. They do this by plugging in to the wall to store extra power and generating power off their own kinetic energy as they brake. I wonder if anyone has looked into something like this for the hydrogen-powered cars. Make a hydrogen/electric hybrid. Can also toss in a solar panel or 2 to help charge the batteries. Just by my thought train alone, I can see this could be viable for shorter commutes with a range of just a few hundred miles (until splitting a H2O molecule advances a bit) But I could just be a little behind the times on this

R&D cost for something that kills the oil industry is about zip, so we buy gasoline. In Southern Ca. where I live regular unleaded is going for over $2.80. Diesel is over $3.00. I got a good laugh when someone was complaining that their gasoline was over 2.45… I haven’t seen gas for 2.45 for ages

[JohnAFlynn]

Gasoline in NYC is already $3.00 a gallon for premium (self-serve) …well over $3.00 for full serve …

Guess I wont be driving my Ferrari around town much anymore (jk …siobhain :D )
Cheers


I haven't seen a full service station since I was a kid. . .

[YANKEE_JIM]

I haven't seen a full service station since I was a kid. . .


You obviously don't live near a large jewish population? ;)


-Yankee Jim

[Chain]

AE, we should almost "stop the presses" on TAA#3. Implications of the gas prices had ought to be at least the secondary article. We can easily tie all this in with the greater White scenarios, and our downturns in this country.

Those of us who can manage can get used vehicles such as a Toyota Echo (48 mpg) or even a Prius or even a Honda Insight (60-100 mpg with optimal conditions). Suzuki Samurais 4WD's at (I think) 1.3 or 1.6 litres are good alternatives, as is the Suzuki Sidekick 4WD's...all cheap and reliable.

I'd liquidate assets- particularly non-income generating real estate.

As far as the argument that those are Jap vehicles- forget that. Each White man must now, even more, begin to think and act for the survival of his family.

The propaganda possibilities are limitless. I'll soon call congressmen, (call for FREE- 1-877-762-8762) even though we only get their aides, they themselves make some hilarious statements and boners.

Video truth propaganda alone could be enormous. Whites will get angry and panicky over gas, and on camera- they could be asked about the neocon (war) tie-ins etc.

It's the dawn of a new day for propaganda. So get rid of your gas-guzzling SUV, buy cheap tinned fish, and enjoy the breakdown/wake up.

[JohnAFlynn]

In Palm Springs Ca. where I live regular unleaded is going for over $2.80. Diesel is over $3.00. I got a good laugh when someone was complaining that their gasoline was over 2.45… I haven’t seen gas for 2.45 for ages

$2.42 was the cheapest I saw today in my town, up a few cents from yesterday. It was $2.08 just two weeks ago.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

AE, we should almost "stop the presses" on TAA#3. Implications of the gas prices had ought to be at least the secondary article. We can easily tie all this in with the greater White scenarios, and our downturns in this country.

Those of us who can manage can get used vehicles such as a Toyota Echo (48 mpg) or even a Prius or even a Honda Insight (60-100 mpg with optimal conditions). Suzuki Samurais 4WD's at (I think) 1.3 or 1.6 litres are good alternatives, as is the Suzuki Sidekick 4WD's...all cheap and reliable.

I'd liquidate assets- particularly non-income generating real estate.

As far as the argument that those are Jap vehicles- forget that. Each White man must now, even more, begin to think and act for the survival of his family.

The propaganda possibilities are limitless. I'll soon call congressmen, (call for FREE- 1-877-762-8762) even though we only get their aides, they themselves make some hilarious statements and boners.

Video truth propaganda alone could be enormous. Whites will get angry and panicky over gas, and on camera- they could be asked about the neocon (war) tie-ins etc.

It's the dawn of a new day for propaganda. So get rid of your gas-guzzling SUV, buy cheap tinned fish, and enjoy the breakdown/wake up.

great advice. gas mileage on the vehicle is important and so is avoiding asset crash in real estate.

you know there are some important skills that are useful in places where transportation and food are expensive. riding bikes, requires both having a bike, and some experience and conditioning riding it. bike riding is an alternative for some people who may not be that far from work, even in suburbs. I have a friend in Dearborn who works at Fords and rides his bike when weather is good. But it's hard to just hop on a bike one day and get very far because if nothing else your crotch will hurt.

Also gardening. helps to have a garden before the collapse. helps to know how to grow food in your backyard. I started a garden a year ago for this very reason. much I have learned in a year and the time was enjoyed by myself and children especially.

also to have a local "cell" of good friends and family you can depend upon. Know your neighbors. Know where they work and what they do. Know about them-- you know what I mean. Some neighbors will be your friend and ally during a pinch, and some will not. Be a good neighbor yourself and know people in your neck of the woods and treat them kindly. and again, have your support network of people who can help you out within walking and biking distance! no man an island.

So big things and small things, we need to plan ahead and not just hunker down with MREs hoping victory will sail down from the sky on a white cloud. As Louis Pasteur said "chance favors the prepared mind"

[JohnAFlynn]

You obviously don't live near a large jewish population? ;)


-Yankee Jim


Come to think of it, it was when I lived in the large Jewish area of Clayton, Missouri, as a kid, that every station had full service. I never understood why someone would pay so much extra just to have somebody else fill the tank. :rolleyes:

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Yes Jews loathe anything remotely resembling hard work. They are fat bloated ticks on the back of the White race-- indeed of all the races of the world. They are the common enemy of all mankind.

[Oy Ze Hate]

Can anyone out there explain WHY the costs have gone up? Two years ago I had a station I went to, in a major city, where 87 unleaded was $1.36. Really.

Now? $2.50 all over town and plenty higher if you don't care to shop.

I don't get it. Either the oil companies are price-fixing or something happened between a year ago and now that makes oil much more expensive to refine. Well, which is it? If it's the former, then we as Americans shouldn't stand for this shit and should have the US Government subsidize the oil companies so that gas can stay around $1.75 a gallon. If if it's the latter, then the oil companies should revert to their old refining methods because those refining methods resulted in GAS THAT COST $1.36 A GALLON, NOT $2.90 TWO YEARS LATER.

If "our" government were to take all the money it has spent aggrandizing the military/industrial complex with this War in Iraq, and were to put this money towards subsidizing the oil companies, we could easily have $1.75 a gallon gas. We should not have to put up with this limitless greed. No free people should have to put up with mass price-fixing and industrial collusion for industrial profit.

The other scenario is that oil is indeed running out and we are currently in a resource war with the rapidly growing nations of East Asia. And the oil companies are forced to buy from a low supply/high demand market. They simply pass the costs on to us.

Either way, buck fush and buck the neo-cons who got us into this pointless, costly, idiotic war. I'm sure the Fed could have come up with a better way to spend 400 billion dollars. If it weren't for the ZOG, that is.

[blueskies]

I think one of the main reasons for high oil prices is that more countries are bartering. Venezuela barter they're oil with the neighboring countries for goods. Plus China’s floating currency will dampen USD purchasing power.

[blueskies]

I think one of the main reasons for high oil prices is that more countries are bartering. Venezuela barter they're oil with the neighboring countries for goods. Plus China’s floating currency will dampen USD purchasing power.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/2248301410
Venezuelan President Threatens U.S. With an Oil Embargo

Currently, Venezuela controls the largest oil reserves in South America, making it the world's fifth largest oil producer.

Current estimates say Venezuela exports almost 1.3 million barrels a day to the United States.

[YANKEE_JIM]

Can anyone out there explain WHY the costs have gone up?

The answer is simple...I'll spell it. J-E-W!

I have a new policy...blame everything on the jew...EVERYTHING! :D


-Yankee Jim

[YANKEE_JIM]

Fuel prices are soaring...my question is what are your thoughts, as this trend continues, in what ways will it change life in the USA, and how much and how soon?


Diesel Costs Overload Truckers

Aug. 16--Raymond Jacques is just a few cents away from calling it quits. The spike in diesel fuel prices over the past month has driven his freight hauling company, Road Corp LLC, to the brink of financial ruin. A few more cents could finish him off, he said.

"In the past five or six weeks, the profit margin has gone way down," he said. "I haven't even taken a check myself."

Road Corp operates five over-the-road trucks, and Jacques has seen his profit erode as the price of fuel increased dramatically in recent weeks. The national average for diesel fuel was $2.57 per gallon Monday, according to the Energy Information Administration, up 22 cents since Aug. 1.

http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=210104&source=r_technology

ITZ COMING!


-Yankee Jim

[lawrence dennis]

AE, we should almost "stop the presses" on TAA#3. Implications of the gas prices had ought to be at least the secondary article. We can easily tie all this in with the greater White scenarios, and our downturns in this country....

The propaganda possibilities are limitless....

Video truth propaganda alone could be enormous. Whites will get angry and panicky over gas, and on camera- they could be asked about the neocon (war) tie-ins etc.

It's the dawn of a new day for propaganda....National Vanguard developed an effective flyer along these lines. This was one of the few of theirs that I printed out and distributed here and there about town:

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/docs/gas_prices.pdf

New Flyer: Gas High Enough Yet? (http://nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3180)

We know the Iraq war wasn’t fought over oil — or now it would be inexpensive. We certainly know now that the war wasn’t fought over ‘weapons of mass destruction.’ Then what was the war really for?

“If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this.” — Representative Jim Moran, as quoted in the Reston Times

“Israel long since would have taken us to the weapons of mass destruction if there were any or if they had been removed. With Iraq no threat, why invade a sovereign country? The answer: President Bush’s policy to secure Israel. ...led by Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and Charles Krauthammer... Acting militarily, we have created more terrorism than we have eliminated.” — Senator Ernest Hollings, as quoted in the Charleston Post and Courier

“I think it’s the worst kept secret in Washington. That everybody — everybody I talk to in Washington has known and fully knows what their [Jewish Neo-Con] agenda was and what they were trying to do. ...because I mentioned the neo-conservatives who describe themselves as neo-conservatives, I was called anti-Semitic. The trouble is the way they saw to go about this is unilateral aggressive intervention by the United States — the take down of Iraq as a priority. And what we have become now in the United States, how we’re viewed in this region, is not an entity that’s promising positive change. We are now being viewed as the modern crusaders, as the modern colonial power in this part of the world.” — General, Anthony Zinni, Retired, recently chief of the U.S. Central Command and President Bush’s former Middle East special envoy, [i]60 Minutes interview of 21 May 2004

We agree.

The chaos caused by the unnecessary invasion of Iraq on Israel’s behalf has caused chaos and uncertainty in the Middle East—and that means higher prices for you and me, and not just for gas; for everything, eventually. As millions of Third-Worlders invade the U.S. through Mexico, our government is being run by people who are more concerned about Israel’s borders than our own. They have brought terrorism on this country because of their push for unlimited economic, diplomatic and military support for Israel.

It’s time to bring our troops home and put them to work guarding our own border.

Join with us in accomplishing this patriotic task.

[Tench]

Prices are high because of all the white yuppies in their starched shirts are making a killing trading oil futures by the ease of the internet.

Oh and Bush and his Saudi business partners are not complaining about the truckloads of cash being dumped on their doorsteps.

[lawrence dennis]

More protests to come, no doubt...

Hundreds Of Truckers Protest High Gas Prices (http://www.nbc6.net/news/4832833/detail.html)
4:12 pm EDT August 10, 2005 -- MIAMI --More than 600 truckers gathered in their big rigs Wednesday to protest the rising gas prices in South Florida, NBC 6's Hank Tester reported.

The trucks, which included tractor-trailers, dump trucks and box trucks, gathered at the intersection of Okeechobee Road and the Florida Turnpike in Miami-Dade County.

Traffic in the area was at a standstill as the trucks started a caravan headed toward Miami City Hall. The trucks traveled 20 miles to present a petition requesting a fuel surcharge break for independently owned trucks.

The truckers claim that the high cost of gas has made it impossible for them to earn a living. "The airlines are charging passengers. The steam ship lines are charging the shippers. Everyone who's got clout is getting a surcharge," said Ron Carver of the Teamsters Union. "But the truck drivers who have to buy their own fuel are going into bankruptcy because they don't have the clout to demand this. So they're here today asking Congress to pass a mandatory fuel surcharge to keep them afloat."

The drivers told NBC 6 that the shipping companies that contract them to haul to the Port of Miami pay around 85 cents per mile. With the high cost of gas, operating per mile could cost 60 cents.

"A lot of people are making money on this business -- the shipping line, the owner of the company, the marine terminal. They make a lot of money but we are poor," driver Luis Rivera said. Rivera owns his own rig and contracts with shippers who he says do not adjust per mile fees to cover the increase in gas.

For Rivera, what's left is not much of a living for he, his wife and kids. "She says that this business is really wrong," Rivera said. "We don't have any money, no possibility, no American dreams. We can do nothing."

Both Telemundo 51 and NBC 6 put in calls to local shippers who contract with the drivers. None wanted to talk to the media.

Commissioner Tomas Regaldo has promised to pass the trucker's petition on to federal lawmakers.

[YANKEE_JIM]

Prices are high because of all the white yuppies in their starched shirts are making a killing trading oil futures by the ease of the internet.



At-the-pump diesel prices jump 16 cents on average nationwide


WASHINGTON — Average at-the-pump diesel prices nationwide soared to $2.567 a gallon — a jump of 16 cents — during the seven-day period ended Aug. 15, according to the Energy Information Administration (EIA) in Washington.


That’s 74.2 cents more a gallon than truckers were paying at this time a year ago. The latest price explosion has everyone in the trucking industry wondering not if, but when, diesel will join California in eclipsing the dreaded $3-a-gallon plateau.

http://www.thetrucker.com/showstory.aspx?id=10029


ITZ COMING!

-Yankee Jim

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Prices are high because of all the white yuppies in their starched shirts are making a killing trading oil futures by the ease of the internet..

That is total bullshit.

[Derrick Beukeboom]

Prices are high because of all the white yuppies in their starched shirts are making a killing trading oil futures by the ease of the internet.

Oh and Bush and his Saudi business partners are not complaining about the truckloads of cash being dumped on their doorsteps.

I was at a Shell a couple of weeks ago and me and the guy in the next pump started talking. of course the high price of gasoline came up and he said clearly that I should buy gas futures...he said he is making good money and even if the price goes up, he has to pay higher prices for everything, but he comes out ahead because of his futures....
he told me to look into it.

[Tench]

Not only is it total bullshit, the depleted in a nanosecond $5 or $10K accounts traded by "white yuppies in their starched shirts" read: average Whites with a modicum of savings, are largely what enable the bigshots, jew and gentile, to predate: bottom feeding, contrarian theory, all kinds of strategies that a $5 or $10 K margin cannot possibly support.

A commodities broker told me this long ago. Your aunt's car payments for a year largely fuel this beast. Remember, there's millions like her, that 5 or 10 grand multiplied thousands of times every day.

A little money (or a lot if you're trading 10K when you only have 20K in savings) and a desire to trade futures spells disaster for the average White.

Do you live in an Apartment?

Because if you are an average homeowner, you dont have a meeger amount of savings these days.

The housing bubble has unleashed a flood of free credit.

People are refinacing and second mortgaging their homes and taking out over $100,000 and $200,000 loans on the inflated value and writing it off on taxes.

There is an orgy of spending and speculation by White americans going on out there.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Do you live in an Apartment? Because if you are an average homeowner, you dont have a meeger amount of savings these days. The housing bubble has unleashed a flood of free credit. People are refinacing and second mortgaging their homes and taking out over $100,000 and $200,000 loans on the inflated value and writing it off on taxes. There is an orgy of spending and speculation by White americans going on out there.

1-- credit is almost never free. home equity loans still bear interest. interest on a 100K is plenty to pay.

2-- most people that have borrowed the equity on their home are not investing it or speculating, they are spending it.

As for the little guy speculating, not so much as he did back during the net bubble of 98 or so. But now the froth is in housing.

I'm not sure we disagree here, because I'm not sure what you're saying. But hell if it's yuppies that are bidding up the price of oil. It's not going to serve Dubya either. Come next election, the Republicunts will get hammered.

[Tench]

No, we own, but I thought you were talking about trading futures? :confused:

Thats where the yuppies are getting the risk capital to speculate (gamble) on the oil futures market causing the price to skyrocket.

Credit is flowing unlike it ever has in the history of the world. When the tap is turned off its going to be a hard landing.

Ive seen mestizoes who look like they are 3 months out of the jungles of central america driving 1 year old used Cadillac Escalades with pearlized paint jobs and spinner wheels, my god, it is a sight to behold.

The U.S. is a dying country, having its last meal before going to the electric chair.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Thats where the yuppies are getting the risk capital to speculate (gamble) on the oil futures market causing the price to skyrocket.

........

Do you have any empirical proof of that whatsoever? Not that yuppies are borrowing on inflated real estate values-- I grant that. But, that they are playing futures in any significant amounts. Oh, and please attach links to your credible sources.

[Tench]

1-- credit is almost never free. home equity loans still bear interest. interest on a 100K is plenty to pay.


A $100,000 2nd mortgage will only cost between $500 and $600 a month. If a homeowner refinaced and the 1st has dropped the payment by an equal amount, then taking out $100k is FREE because the interest is subsidized by writing it off on federal income taxes.

Like I said, there is an orgy going on out there which has never been seen before.

[Augustus Sutter]

While writing this I had a bit of an epiphany. I was just reading about hybrid cars getting 250mpg. They do this by plugging in to the wall to store extra power and generating power off their own kinetic energy as they brake. I wonder if anyone has looked into something like this for the hydrogen-powered cars. Make a hydrogen/electric hybrid. Can also toss in a solar panel or 2 to help charge the batteries. Just by my thought train alone, I can see this could be viable for shorter commutes with a range of just a few hundred miles (until splitting a H2O molecule advances a bit) But I could just be a little behind the times on this



I've read up on this and it makes for a great headline, but it is not what it appears. What this guy did was put 16 batteries in the trunk and modify the hybrid Prius to run on the electric motor exclusively till the batteries run dry. So, he only burns fuel at that rate of 250 mpg till the batteries run down which is after around 60 miles, then it uses fuel at a typical Prius rate of 48 mpg or so. It sounds great. If we could get 250 mpg for a whole tank of gas we would only fill up 4 or 5 times a year. The fuel crisis could be put to bed, at least for now.

The Hydrogen economy is a farce. If dumb-dumb Bush is enamored with the idea, as he is said to be; it must be unworkable. First off, making hydrogen from methane or water is a bad idea. It's a net energy loss. Secondly, fuel cells use platinum, and that is a scarce commodity which would need constant replacing because fuel cells don't have a long life-span.The prototype Hydrogen cars do use electric motors. Fuel cells store energy with Hydrogen and use it to generate electricity.

In my opinion if there is any hope of keeping the automobile alive it will be with electric cars. The two engineers who were behind the EV1 at GM are working on an EV battery that will have a range of 400 miles and an 80% recharge in less than 1 hour. They say they have a prototype battery capable of this. Maybe a battery such as this and a higher RPM electric motor wed to a small gas engine could produce 250 mpg and give you a 3000 mile range on a tank of gas. Then again, if you have a 100 hp or so electric motor that can go 400 miles you could do without the gas engine.

I think these high gas prices will slowly push the U.S economy down a hole from which it will not recover. The first thing to POP will be this ridiculous housing bubble. Higher prices for food and everything else will reduce consumption and lead to job losses. Housing will plummet as it did in the Great Depression.

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

...The Hydrogen economy is a farce...
Vehicles were developed to burn hydrogen in place of gasoline. The infeasability lies in the production of hydrogen which must be extracted from water. Once this is solved, fossil fuel for automotive use will be history. Solar energy could lower the cost of production:
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm
http://www.autointell.de/News-deutsch-2001/Januar-2001/Januar-24-01-p1.htm

[FadeTheButcher]

Means less travel. Gas now $2.38 here, higher than I've ever seen.It just hit $2.59 here today. Less than a month ago I could get gas for $1.99.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

A $100,000 2nd mortgage will only cost between $500 and $600 a month. If a homeowner refinaced and the 1st has dropped the payment by an equal amount, then taking out $100k is FREE because the interest is subsidized by writing it off on federal income taxes.

Like I said, there is an orgy going on out there which has never been seen before.

Deductions are not dollar for dollar reductions in taxes are they? So it's not "FREE."

[Mike Mazzone of Palatine]

Vehicles were developed to burn hydrogen in place of gasoline. The infeasability lies in the production of hydrogen which must be extracted from water. Once this is solved, fossil fuel for automotive use will be history. Solar energy could lower the cost of production:
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm
http://www.autointell.de/News-deutsch-2001/Januar-2001/Januar-24-01-p1.htm
Oil does not come from fossils, it is scientifically proven to be abiotic.

http://www.gasresources.net/Hi-p-VI(H-C-Genesis).pdf

There's plenty of other problems with hydrogen fuel replacing oil than just the extraction from water. Having enough rare platinum for the fuel cells to replace all the cars on a mass scale is one, although there has been some research into developing iron compound based fuel cells.

Until hydrogen fuel cells and hydrogen power become a cheaper source of energy than gas for fueling cars, we won't see hydrogen replacing oil for cars.

[FadeTheButcher]

There's plenty of other problems with hydrogen fuel replacing oil than just the extraction from water. Yeah. For starters, hyrdogen is an energy carrier, not a source of energy in its own right.

[Augustus Sutter]

Vehicles were developed to burn hydrogen in place of gasoline. The infeasability lies in the production of hydrogen which must be extracted from water. Once this is solved, fossil fuel for automotive use will be history. Solar energy could lower the cost of production:
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm
http://www.autointell.de/News-deutsch-2001/Januar-2001/Januar-24-01-p1.htm


What you linked to was compressed liquid hydrogen being used in a modified ICE.
I was talking about fuel cell technology which uses hydrogen fuel cells to drive electric motors. Currently, most hydrogen is generated from Methane. They will never be able to use the sun to generate enough Hydrogen to replace hydrocarbon fuels. The Hydrogen economy is a farce.

[odin]

Deductions are not dollar for dollar reductions in taxes are they? So it's not "FREE."Yeah, a deduction just means you don't pay taxes on THAT portion of your income. A 100k deduction might save you 8 to 20k.

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

What you linked to was compressed liquid hydrogen being used in a modified ICE.
What's wrong with that? Isn't this method more efficient than to use fuel cell technilogy?
...Currently, most hydrogen is generated from Methane. They will never be able to use the sun to generate enough Hydrogen to replace hydrocarbon fuels.Methane can be burned in internal combustion engines, leaving behind less of the hazardous bi-products normaly left behind vehicles which run on fossil fuels.
The construction of sun energy farms, in the desert, would put a dent into the fossil fuel business, when combined with other energy generating options
The Hydrogen economy is a farce.

[Jenab]

What you are talking about is basically a form of “cold fusion”. The wall they keep beating their heads against is this…. It takes more energy to split the H2O molecule than the energy you get out of it. So, with that in mind, the process can not be self contained yet.. YET.
NEVER. Nobody will ever "invent" a way to violate the laws of physics, and two of the most basic laws is the Conservation of Energy and the Law of Entropy - the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.

What you're talking about isn't "cold fusion." You're talking about electrolysis: the electrical dissociation of the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen, with a later explosive recombination inside an engine to produce mechanical torque. These are chemical reactions, and, yes, more energy must go in than can come out. As long as you can acquire energy from somewhere (fossil fuels or sunlight) and convert it to electricity to do the electrolysis, you can produce hydrogen for fuel cells. Yes, you can do it with sunlight and solar panels, but remember that ALL the energy that will eventually be used by the hydrogen-powered vehicles plus some extra to allow for the inevitable conversion losses, must originally be present in the sunlight.

I once calculated that a solar panel array with a total area the size of the state of Utah could produce enough fuel-cell hydrogen to operate America's cars and trucks.

On the other hand, "cold fusion" is the idea - almost certainly false and probably a hoax - that protons can be made to quantum tunnel past their mutual electric potential barriers to form helium nuclei in significant numbers at "room temperature." Normally, protons must be moving very fast with respect to each other to overcome their Coulomb repulsion, and this means very high temperatures: millions of degrees, as near the center of a star.

Fusion isn't a chemical process; it's a nuclear one. Fusion and electrolysis are two different things.

Jerry Abbott

[Oy Ze Hate]

What about hemp oil? I've heard that if a few percent points of the US landmass were planted with hemp, we'd have complete energy independence in no time flat.

Hemp is the answer to all our energy problems. There would be major costs involved, obviously, in getting this new industry up and running, but imagine all the employment opportunities for hemp farming and hemp manufacturing? And it's infinitely renewable, cheap, easy on the environment, and all that good stuff.

Hemp oil engines the way of the Aryan future? I read about a man who travelled round the country with an engine that ran on discarded restaurant grease. Anything flammable will do. There may be a big drop in HP with non-gasoline combustion engines, but so what? Who needs 250 hp engines except the occassional enthusiast able to afford gas when it climbs up and above $3 a gallon.

This three dollar threshold is the one where most people polled believe they would have to change their driving habits drastically.

The ZOG currently has hemp banned. That in itself should tell you plenty about it's myriad virtues.

Hemp oil. Biofuels. Get your google on. The oil is running out.

[Jenab]

Either way, buck fush and buck the neo-cons who got us into this pointless, costly, idiotic war. I'm sure the Fed could have come up with a better way to spend 400 billion dollars. If it weren't for the ZOG, that is.
The Federal Reserve Board is much more a part of ZOG than George Bush is. There are people who believe that the US Government is ZOG, and the Fed is part of the US Government. They're wrong. There are people who believe that the US Government is ZOG, but the Fed is a non-governmental attachment to it - they're wrong, too.

In fact, the US Government is the attachment. ZOG is the Jew-dominated system of international high finance, of which the Federal Reserve System is the shepherd organization in the United States. In the UK, the corresponding organization is the Bank of England. These high finance Zoggites have an elite club called The Bilderberg Group, whose annual secret meetings are the real policy-making sessions for the governments of most, perhaps all, of the industrialized countries.

Jerry Abbott

[Oy Ze Hate]

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws."

---King of the Jews, Mayer Amschel Rothschild

[Jenab]

Oil does not come from fossils, it is scientifically proven to be abiotic.
That's total BS. Oil is a fossil fuel; it is not abiotic. Your "scientific proof" is a mistake or a hoax.

Methane can exist to a certain depth in the Earth's crust, but not deeper. As the temperature and pressure build, methane will dissociate and combine with oxygen in the lithosphere, forming CO2 and H2O. That's why volcanic eruptions vent CO2 and H2O in massive quantities. They do not vent methane in massive quantities. If methane could exist in the mantle, it would be outgassed via vulcanism. It isn't outgassed. It doesn't exist in the mantle. It doesn't exist because any methane that might have been down there got dissociated.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

What about hemp oil? I've heard that if a few percent points of the US landmass were planted with hemp, we'd have complete energy independence in no time flat.

Hemp is the answer to all our energy problems. There would be major costs involved, obviously, in getting this new industry up and running, but imagine all the employment opportunities for hemp farming and hemp manufacturing? And it's infinitely renewable, cheap, easy on the environment, and all that good stuff.
It might be one way to get high, but it's not going to fly any airplanes. All the farmland in Minnesota could produce enough oil to keep the power on in a single large city. The rest of the state would be in the dark. And, remember, we will need that farmland for growing food. The loss of tractor fuel, artificial fertilizer and pesticide will reduce the agricultural yield per acre to a quarter, or less, of what it was before Peak Oil. People will be burning fuel, in the form of glucose, in their bodies to farm up enough food to metabolize into more glucose, so they can go out and do it again, and again...

I guess that in time, people will adjust to all that hard work and find time for cultural doings once more. But there will be a period during which all will be scramble to keep fed.

Jerry Abbott

[Mike Mazzone of Palatine]

That's total BS. Oil is a fossil fuel; it is not abiotic. Your "scientific proof" is a mistake or a hoax.
Nope. The "Dinosaur Goo" theory is total BS.

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/peak_oil/peak_oil_is_a_known_fraud.htm

...

CONSIDERATIONS ABOUT RECENT PREDICTIONS OF IMPENDING SHORTAGES OF PETROLEUM EVALUATED FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF MODERN PETROLEUM SCIENCE

For almost a century, various predictions have been made that the human race was imminently going to run out of available petroleum. The passing of time has proven all those predictions to have been utterly wrong. It is pointed out here how all such predictions have depended fundamentally upon an archaic hypothesis from the 18th century that petroleum somehow (miraculously) evolved from biological detritus, and was accordingly limited in abundance. That hypothesis has been replaced during the past forty years by the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of abyssal, abiotic petroleum origins which has established that petroleum is a primordial material erupted from great depth. Therefore, petroleum abundances are limited by little more than the quantities of its constituents as were incorporated into the Earth at the time of its formation; and its availability depends upon technological development and exploration competence

...

What about hemp oil?

...

Hemp oil. Biofuels. Get your google on. The oil is running out.

My favorite site is http://www.hempcar.org/ but don't buy into the "running out of oil" myth.

[n9odi]

NEVER. Nobody will ever "invent" a way to violate the laws of physics, and two of the most basic laws is the Conservation of Energy and the Law of Entropy - the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.

What you're talking about isn't "cold fusion." You're talking about electrolysis: the electrical dissociation of the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen, with a later explosive recombination inside an engine to produce mechanical torque. These are chemical reactions, and, yes, more energy must go in than can come out. As long as you can acquire energy from somewhere (fossil fuels or sunlight) and convert it to electricity to do the electrolysis, you can produce hydrogen for fuel cells. Yes, you can do it with sunlight and solar panels, but remember that ALL the energy that will eventually be used by the hydrogen-powered vehicles plus some extra to allow for the inevitable conversion losses, must originally be present in the sunlight.

I once calculated that a solar panel array with a total area the size of the state of Utah could produce enough fuel-cell hydrogen to operate America's cars and trucks.

On the other hand, "cold fusion" is the idea - almost certainly false and probably a hoax - that protons can be made to quantum tunnel past their mutual electric potential barriers to form helium nuclei in significant numbers at "room temperature." Normally, protons must be moving very fast with respect to each other to overcome their Coulomb repulsion, and this means very high temperatures: millions of degrees, as near the center of a star.

Fusion isn't a chemical process; it's a nuclear one. Fusion and electrolysis are two different things.

Jerry Abbott

I fully agree. We should ban all experimentation that attempts to break the laws of physics which will exist forever because we know everything about the universe there is to know.

We shouldn't waste time on developing alternative and sometimes controversial technology. Oil will never end, our planet is made out of it. Lets just get back to driving our SUVs, and further improving the combustion engine as long as we can.

Long live the laws of physics and combustion engines powered by oil. Change = bad.

[Mike Mazzone of Palatine]

It's already changing lives in Alabama.

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050818/panic.shtml

Panic at the pumps
Rumors of pending trucker strike prompt rush on area gas stations


By Holly Hollman
DAILY Staff Writer
hhollman@decaturdaily.com · 340-2445

It spread faster than cold germs in a kindergarten class and caused as much panic in North Alabama as threats of an ice storm.


http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050818/panic.jpg
DAILY Photo by Dan Henry
Sixteen-year-old Butch Mott, right, is part of the crunch at the West Limestone Exxon station, which had unusually long lines Wednesday after a rumor started that the station would not receive another shipment of gasoline until the end of the month.
Rumors erupted Wednesday that truckers would strike, sending many Tennessee Valley residents to the gas pump and causing a fuel shortage in the area.


There was never any truth to the rumors, according to officials with petroleum and trucking associations.

"People are panic-buying," said Arleen Alexander, executive vice president of the Petroleum and Convenience Marketers of Alabama, a trade association representing the petroleum marketing industry.

"A rumor in Northwest Alabama about a gasoline shortage due to a truckers' strike is just that, a rumor," Alexander said.

She said independent truckers in some states are going on strike to protest the federal highway funding bill signed recently by President Bush.

"It does not affect gasoline transporters at all," Alexander said. "I talked to one location that usually sells about 1,000 gallons a day, and it had already sold 4,000 gallons."

If you were among those rushing to the pumps, you could have contributed to a localized shortage.

"It can cause a shortage at a location because these people have specific schedules for gas delivery, and those have to be scheduled way in advance," Alexander said.

A spokesman for the Alabama Trucking Association, the state's main voice for truckers, said his organization heard rumors all day but never located any organized effort to bring about a strike.

"This association does not endorse a strike and is not involved in any way with any movement to bring about a strike," association spokesman Ford Boswell said. "Nobody seems to have any information on it."

Boswell said his organization had heard the rumors, which he said seemed to originate in the Shoals area.

Running to the pumps

An employee at a Florence grocery store said the rumor sent customers and workers to the pumps. Where the rumor originated, the employee wasn't sure.

Amy Garrett, a clerk at Discount Food Mart on Helton Drive in Florence, said she had been at work for two hours and the store's 12 pumps stayed busy.

"I haven't left my spot at the cash register since I got here at 2 this afternoon," she said.

Station calls

Athens City Clerk John Hamilton said City Hall employees got calls that a Shoals radio station mentioned the rumor that truckers would strike, Florence would be out of gas on Wednesday and Athens would be out of gas in one or two days.

"People's friends and their mamas have been calling people here all day about this," Hamilton said Wednesday afternoon.

Hamilton said as a precaution, he told departments, including police and fire, to fill up with gas.

"It's incredible," said the owner of Citgo on Alabama 157 in Moulton, who did not want to give her name.

"We have eight regular pumps and three diesels, and they are staying full," she said. "I know that people are saying this is just a rumor. Rumor or not, they (oil companies) are trying to shut the panic down, but it's too late. This place is a madhouse."

Independent truckers

Boswell speculated that independent truckers who feel the financial pinch when gas prices are high might be the source of the rumors.

"These are they guys who take out their own credit card, not a company credit card, to pay at the gas pump," Boswell said.

Bill Dewberry of Kentucky is one such truck driver. Although he is not currently participating in a strike, he said he would be happy to do so in an effort to lower gas prices.

"I'll shut it down whenever," said Dewberry, who said he had just spent $362 at the pump.

"What's the reason for it going up? It isn't like we've got a gas shortage or anything. It's just the oil companies wanting more money," he said.

Organized strike

Dewberry said an organized strike involving enough truckers would see results.

"Three or four days (of truck drivers striking) would hurt this country because truckers move most of the freight around here," Dewberry said.

On the Web site Alabama GasPrices.com, the message board contained posts about a strike. On Aug. 15, someone wrote the following:

"I would like to see trucks in every state come to a halt! If 1 percent of the independent truckers parked even for a 24-hour period nationally, companies awaiting shipments would be in a terrible fix. It wouldn't take long for the government to intervene and put a stop to the inflated fuel prices. One percent of all independent trucks is a heck-of-a-lot of rigs! All it would take is for word to spread by CB and cell phones to get this organized ... It's either park or go belly-up trying to make a living!"

For gas station owners, the hysteria kept pumps pumping and cash registers opening.

More than 30 cars lined up at Cowboys on Sixth Avenue at about 5 p.m. Wednesday, and they kept coming.

Mary Catherine Stewart of Decatur said she heard a strike would drive the price of gas up by 30 cents a gallon today.

Angie Cagle of Cullman said she heard the price of gas would shoot up to $4 a gallon because of the strike.

While some doubted the rumors, they took the approach of Louis Lozano of Decatur. "You never know, though," he said. "Just in case."

Gas shortage

Gas shortage rumors did help create a small gas shortage for at least one gas station.

Demita Harris, manager of the Circle C on U.S. 31 South, said the station ran out of regular unleaded gas and ran low on mid- and high-grade gasoline Wednesday afternoon.

"I heard about the so-called strike thing, heard it was a rumor, and the next thing I knew, my alarm was going off, telling me I'm out of gas," she said.

The rumors concerned Harris, who said she expected to receive a shipment of gas Wednesday but didn't.

"We should have had gas delivery already," she said.

14 cars deep

Bobby McLemore, owner of Bob's Quick Mart at Lucas Ferry Road and Brownsferry Street in Athens, saw 14 cars waiting in line at his pumps at 3:30 p.m. He said business had been busy since 10:30 a.m.

At Jiffy's at U.S. 31 and Hobbs Street in Athens, a clerk said she had been working since 2 p.m. and "every pump was full, and people are waiting in line." The store has 10 pumps.

A Moulton Shell clerk said his store filled its 8,000-gallon tank Tuesday morning, and it was almost empty by 4 p.m. Wednesday.

"I've been busy all day," he said. "Everybody is up here trying to get some gas. We've never run out before."

Alexander said buyers should ignore the rumors.

"Gasoline customers need to relax and resume their normal buying habits," she said.

Staff writers M.J. Ellington, Clyde Stancil and Seth Burkett contributed to this story

[Jenab]

I fully agree. We should ban all experimentation that attempts to break the laws of physics which will exist forever because we know everything about the universe there is to know. We shouldn't waste time on developing alternative and sometimes controversial technology. Oil will never end, our planet is made out of it. Lets just get back to driving our SUVs, and further improving the combustion engine as long as we can. Long live the laws of physics and combustion engines powered by oil. Change = bad.
Let me make a comparison. Suppose you're in a prison and surrounded by 40' high steel and concrete walls. The walls are inconvenient to you, and you wish that they weren't there. While wishing that it weren't there, you assume that it isn't there. Heck, what do the "theories" of masons and architects have to do with reality, anyway?

So you simply stride forward on the assumption that the wall is some sort of illusion, and WHAM, you have a busted nose. You back off, but immediately you figure that the problem was that you weren't using enough resolve in your imagination, so you more determinedly assume that the wall is illusory and step forward again. WHAM, cracked skull. You can stride as many times as you please, or for as long as you survive, into that concrete wall. It's staying solid, and you're not getting past it.

A lot of people (who aren't the equivalent of masons and architects) pretend that the solution to their problems is merely a matter of cleverly figuring out the right magic spell, the correct prayer, or the proper attitude. With such a spell, prayer or attitude, they believe they can turn one fish into enough food for five thousand people. This sort of wishful thinking is so seductive that, within a lot of people, a conceit grows that they know more about, say, the basic laws of nature than the physicists do. The guy who can't even write a Schrodinger equation, much less solve one, thinks he's empowered to lecture folks to whom such a chore is simpler than the crossword puzzle on your newspaper's comic page.

If there's a reason for hope, if there's a clever trick that has not been found so far, then the odds are 99.999% (or better) that it will be discovered first by someone who has made the study of nature his occupation for a major part of his life. The instance of a layman overturning an established body of knowledge with a new idea that works out is much, much rarer than a nigger with an IQ over 140.

In other words, save the sarcasm for moments when it will be more effective in pointing out an irony that actually exists, instead of wasting it in trying to point out ironies that you have merely imagined.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

Nope. The "Dinosaur Goo" theory is total BS.
Nope. You're wrong. The "Dinosaur Goo" (note the disparaging name) theory is correct. The abiotic theory is wrong. Methane isn't outgassed by volcanic eruptions, as it would be if methane were a major solute in magma. The main gases vented are carbon dioxide and water vapor. Methane will react with oxygen bearing rocks at the temperatures and pressures of the mantle, and the results will be CO2 and H2O. You have been bamboozled by pseudoscience.

CONSIDERATIONS ABOUT RECENT PREDICTIONS OF IMPENDING SHORTAGES OF PETROLEUM EVALUATED FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF MODERN PETROLEUM SCIENCE. For almost a century, various predictions have been made that the human race was imminently going to run out of available petroleum. The passing of time has proven all those predictions to have been utterly wrong.
The phrase "...evaluated from the perspective of modern petroleum science" is misleading. Modern petroleum science accepts the biological origin of oil. The charlatans promote the abiotic oil theory.

Most of the predictions regarding fossil fuel depletion did not prove false; they proved true. For example, the prediction of M. King Hubbert was that the per capita peak of global oil production would occur in 1979 -- and it did. But more relevantly, the "various predictions" about fossil fuel depletion, almost all of them, put the absolute peak of global oil production in the first quarter of the 21st century, about where we are now.

None of those "various predictions" held that Peak Oil was going to occur the week after the prediction was made, though that's what your source appears to be insinuating. No matter what the prediction actually said, if it doesn't happen within a few weeks at most, it must have been a false prediction -- that's what your source suggests to the reader. And that means your source is trying to deceive the readers.

Jerry Abbott

[JohnAFlynn]

Yeah, a deduction just means you don't pay taxes on THAT portion of your income. A 100k deduction might save you 8 to 20k.

It's not even a $100K deduction, it's just a deduction for INTEREST you pay on that $100K.

[TwistedCross]

I stand corrected. I used the wrong term for the splitting of H2O. It is not a form of cold fusion but is electrolysis.

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

Car batteries produce hydrogen, while getting charged

[n9odi]

Let me make a comparison. Suppose you're in a prison and surrounded by 40' high steel and concrete walls. The walls are inconvenient to you, and you wish that they weren't there. While wishing that it weren't there, you assume that it isn't there. Heck, what do the "theories" of masons and architects have to do with reality, anyway?

So you simply stride forward on the assumption that the wall is some sort of illusion, and WHAM, you have a busted nose. You back off, but immediately you figure that the problem was that you weren't using enough resolve in your imagination, so you more determinedly assume that the wall is illusory and step forward again. WHAM, cracked skull. You can stride as many times as you please, or for as long as you survive, into that concrete wall. It's staying solid, and you're not getting past it.

A lot of people (who aren't the equivalent of masons and architects) pretend that the solution to their problems is merely a matter of cleverly figuring out the right magic spell, the correct prayer, or the proper attitude. With such a spell, prayer or attitude, they believe they can turn one fish into enough food for five thousand people. This sort of wishful thinking is so seductive that, within a lot of people, a conceit grows that they know more about, say, the basic laws of nature than the physicists do. The guy who can't even write a Schrodinger equation, much less solve one, thinks he's empowered to lecture folks to whom such a chore is simpler than the crossword puzzle on your newspaper's comic page.

If there's a reason for hope, if there's a clever trick that has not been found so far, then the odds are 99.999% (or better) that it will be discovered first by someone who has made the study of nature his occupation for a major part of his life. The instance of a layman overturning an established body of knowledge with a new idea that works out is much, much rarer than a nigger with an IQ over 140.

In other words, save the sarcasm for moments when it will be more effective in pointing out an irony that actually exists, instead of wasting it in trying to point out ironies that you have merely imagined.

Jerry Abbott

Analogies accomplish and explain nothing. You haven't experimented with every single one of these inventions. You assume that you know everything, and when that knowledge is challenged you dismiss the possibility by applying your beliefs to it.

Having absolutely no experience in or knowledge of the field you like to criticise, you are in no position to say they violate the laws of physics. You may get more energy out of them than you put in, but how do you know the energy is coming from nowhere? You aren't god nor do you know everything there is to know about our universe.

Read my signature. Nikola Tesla is a perfect example of how conventional science only limits ones potential by telling them what they can and cannot do. He focused on his inventions instead of the opinions of the scientific community.

[Mike]

I like this this idea of trying to change urban planning.

I started reading this thread cringing at the thought of the millennialist predictions I'd read. I don't like that sort of thing because I think it's inaccurate. Sure, it doesn't hurt to be prepared for difficult times but overpreparing for the unlikely is a waste of resources that should be spent on the world as it really is.

Truth is, the system's not likely to collapse for a while, even if gas hits $10/gal. There is a lot of fat to be trimmed before people literally start starving. In the meantime, realistic plans for turning lemons into lemonade are advised.

2.90 for premium in flyover.

I know it hurts folks but this works in our favor. If it goes up to 4-5 a gallon, White people will no longer be willing to sit out in the fucking suburbs and let the nigger have downtown. We will see a whole new approach to "urban planning" and the pressure will be on the Republicunts to shitcan the Fair Housing Act and other pro-nigger social schemes which have ruined the cities.

[FadeTheButcher]

The phrase "...evaluated from the perspective of modern petroleum science" is misleading. Modern petroleum science accepts the biological origin of oil. The charlatans promote the abiotic oil theory.That's what the JEW wants you to believe. :/

[Mike Mazzone of Palatine]

That's what the JEW wants you to believe. :/
Exactly.

http://www.freemarketnews.com/nview.php?nseq=443

BIG OIL: ‘ABIOTIC ENERGY? NEVER HEARD OF IT’

Jun 09, 2005 - FreeMarketNews.com

by staff reports
Oil is certainly a popular and useful commodity, but it may be among the world’s most manipulated as well. The big American oil companies are among the very biggest contributors to the US environmental movement, offering up billions to organizations that in return lobby vigorously to ensure that Big Oil has no possibility of mounting any effective exploration for oil and gas in the US, absent a fullblown energy crisis.

Of course, Big Oil will claim that its contributions to environmental groups are a necessary part of proactive public relations and allow large, messy companies like Exxon and Mobil to claim a certain “good neighbor” status. Nonetheless, the suspicion remains that Big Oil is not at all averse to what amounts to a virtual environmental ban on drilling and extracting energy products in the US. It allows them to trot out statistics showing that show US oil fields are shrinking even as demand rises.

Any citizen of the West who lives long enough will experience at least three or four energy panics in which all aspects of the media will be employed to sound the death knell for “carbon-based” power sources while advancing inevitable alternatives including solar, water, geothermal and, of course, wind. Publishers go to work rewriting grade-school environmental study books; Congress passes hundreds of millions of subsidies to promote alternative energy; oil and gas prices spike; and yet another generation is introduced to Big Oil’s scarcity economics – a lesson that the industry hopes will resonate sympathetically whenever prices are manipulated higher.

Then there is the concept of “abiotic” oil – the idea that petroleum is actually produced deep within the earth and extruded to the surface, rather than formed by the decomposition of plants and animals. How to test the theory, which has been around for at least several decades or longer? According to an article in What We Now Know, drilling into some of the older wells that were capped years ago due to declining output could provide clues. If additional oil – above what might have been expected – is found in these dry wells, then issue of abiotic oil might well bear further scrutiny.

And what of Big Oil? A geochemist for Texaco explains, “That type of experiment is too expensive in the present economic climate.” Big Oil has millions for environmental groups which have effectively eradicated US energy exploration companies – but not for investigating plausible alternative theories of energy production. Let a hundred symposia on “Peak Oil” bloom!

David H. Smith is FMNN’s newsbriefs coordinator

[Mechanic]

The Federal Reserve Board is much more a part of ZOG than George Bush is. There are people who believe that the US Government is ZOG, and the Fed is part of the US Government. They're wrong. There are people who believe that the US Government is ZOG, but the Fed is a non-governmental attachment to it - they're wrong, too.

In fact, the US Government is the attachment. ZOG is the Jew-dominated system of international high finance, of which the Federal Reserve System is the shepherd organization in the United States. In the UK, the corresponding organization is the Bank of England. These high finance Zoggites have an elite club called The Bilderberg Group, whose annual secret meetings are the real policy-making sessions for the governments of most, perhaps all, of the industrialized countries.

Jerry Abbott

May I take a moment to thank you for your contributions to this forum.
Truely a beacon.

[lawrence dennis]

Nope. The "Dinosaur Goo" theory is total BS.

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/peak_oil/peak_oil_is_a_known_fraud.htm

...*Sigh* This same silly source pops up again.

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=229482#post229482
This site doesn't look very trustworthy, as you can see from: http://www.the7thfire.com/index2.htm Also, examine my posts in this thread: http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=21918

[Jenab]

Analogies accomplish and explain nothing. You haven't experimented with every single one of these inventions. You assume that you know everything, and when that knowledge is challenged you dismiss the possibility by applying your beliefs to it.

Having absolutely no experience in or knowledge of the field you like to criticise, you are in no position to say they violate the laws of physics.
I worked professionally as a physicist for about eight years, first with the US Air Force at the Foreign Technology Division at Wright-Patterson AFB, near Dayton, Ohio, from 1982-1986. After that, I worked for about four more years with a defense contractor in Huntsville, Alabama. My usual areas of applied physics were sensor design, sensor data analysis (radar, IR, visual), spectral data analysis, optics, and orbital trajectory analysis.

My analogy showed what I intended it to show. While I haven't experimented with a "cold fusion" device, I am reasonably confident that I know enough about electromagnetism and quantum mechanics to have an INFORMED opinion about the matter. If your opinion is just as well informed as mine is, we might have some reason to pursue the discussion further.

You may get more energy out of them than you put in, but how do you know the energy is coming from nowhere? You aren't god nor do you know everything there is to know about our universe.
If you get more out of a "cold fusion" device than you put in, the energy is coming from somewhere. Did you check the temperature of the water? Maybe you've drawn heat from warm water. Did you check the water for salt concentration? Maybe you got energy from an acid/base reaction from stuff that an unscrupulous demonstrator slipped into the water. One thing I'll bet you, though, is that you're not getting energy from hydrogen fusion.

Jerry Abbott

[John in Woodbridge]

In fact, the US Government is the attachment. ZOG is the Jew-dominated system of international high finance, of which the Federal Reserve System is the shepherd organization in the United States. In the UK, the corresponding organization is the Bank of England. These high finance Zoggites have an elite club called The Bilderberg Group, whose annual secret meetings are the real policy-making sessions for the governments of most, perhaps all, of the industrialized countries.

Jerry Abbott

The Bilderberg group, an elite coterie of Western thinkers and power-brokers, has been accused of fixing the fate of the world behind closed doors. As the organisation marks its 50th anniversary, rumours are more rife than ever.
Given its reputation as perhaps the most powerful organisation in the world, the Bilderberg group doesn't go a bundle on its switchboard operations.

Telephone inquiries are met with an impersonal female voice - the Dutch equivalent of the BT Callminder woman - reciting back the number and inviting callers to "leave a message after the tone".

Anyone who accidentally dialled the number would probably think they had stumbled on just another residential answer machine.

Leiden in Holland, the inauspicious base of the Bilderberg group
But behind this ultra-modest façade lies one of the most controversial and hotly-debated alliances of our times.

On Thursday the Bilderberg group marks its 50th anniversary with the start of its yearly meeting.

For four days some of the West's chief political movers, business leaders, bankers, industrialists and strategic thinkers will hunker down in a five-star hotel in northern Italy to talk about global issues.

What sets Bilderberg apart from other high-powered get-togethers, such as the annual World Economic Forum (WEF), is its mystique.

Not a word of what is said at Bilderberg meetings can be breathed outside. No reporters are invited in and while confidential minutes of meetings are taken, names are not noted.

The shadowy aura extends further - the anonymous answerphone message, for example; the fact that conference venues are kept secret. The group, which includes luminaries such as Henry Kissinger and former UK chancellor Kenneth Clarke, does not even have a website.

This year Bilderberg has announced a list of attendees
They include BP chief John Browne, US Senator John Edwards, World Bank president James Wolfensohn and Mrs Bill Gates

In the void created by such aloofness, an extraordinary conspiracy theory has grown up around the group that alleges the fate of the world is largely decided by Bilderberg.

In Yugoslavia, leading Serbs have blamed Bilderberg for triggering the war which led to the downfall of Slobodan Milosevic. The Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, the London nail-bomber David Copeland and Osama Bin Laden are all said to have bought into the theory that Bilderberg pulls the strings with which national governments dance.

And while hardline right-wingers and libertarians accuse Bilderberg of being a liberal Zionist plot, leftists such as activist Tony Gosling are equally critical.

A former journalist, Mr Gosling runs a campaign against the group from his home in Bristol, UK.

"My main problem is the secrecy. When so many people with so much power get together in one place I think we are owed an explanation of what is going on.

Timothy McVeigh was among those who believed the conspiracy theory
Mr Gosling seizes on a quote from Will Hutton, the British economist and a former Bilderberg delegate, who likened it to the annual WEF gathering where "the consensus established is the backdrop against which policy is made worldwide".

"One of the first places I heard about the determination of US forces to attack Iraq was from leaks that came out of the 2002 Bilderberg meeting," says Mr Gosling.

But "privacy, rather than secrecy", is key to such a meeting says Financial Times journalist Martin Wolf, who has been invited several times in a non-reporting role.

"The idea that such meetings cannot be held in private is fundamentally totalitarian," he says. "It's not an executive body; no decisions are taken there."

As an up-and-coming statesmen in the 1950s, Denis Healey, who went on to become a Labour chancellor, was one of the four founding members of Bilderberg (which was named after the hotel in Holland where the first meeting was held in 1954).

His response to claims that Bilderberg exerts a shadowy hand on the global tiller is met with characteristic bluntness. "Crap!"

"There's absolutely nothing in it. We never sought to reach a consensus on the big issues at Bilderberg. It's simply a place for discussion," says Lord Healey.

Formed in the spirit of post-war trans-Atlantic co-operation, the idea behind Bilderberg was that future wars could be prevented by bringing power-brokers together in an informal setting away from prying eyes.

"Bilderberg is the most useful international group I ever attended. The confidentiality enabled people to speak honestly without fear of repercussions.

"In my experience the most useful meetings are those when one is free to speak openly and honestly. It's not unusual at all. Cabinet meetings in all countries are held behind closed doors and the minutes are not published."

That activists have seized on Bilderberg is no surprise to Alasdair Spark, an expert in conspiracy theories.

"The idea that a shadowy clique is running the world is nothing new. For hundreds of years people have believed the world is governed by a cabal of Jews.

"Shouldn't we expect that the rich and powerful organise things in their own interests. It's called capitalism."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3773019.stm

[n9odi]

I haven't experimented with a "cold fusion" device...
If you get more out of a "cold fusion" device than you put in...
I wasn't even talking about cold fusion, nowhere did I mention that in my post. If you think that cold fusion is the only free energy claim out there then you've only seen the tip of the iceburg.

[King_Tiger]

The United States needs a Maglev system. :(

[Jenab]

I wasn't even talking about cold fusion, nowhere did I mention that in my post. If you think that cold fusion is the only free energy claim out there then you've only seen the tip of the iceburg.
Oh, I see. You were asserting in a general way that the laws of thermodynamics are incorrect. My mistake. So, then: which "free energy" claims do you believe are correct? Do you have any reason to suppose that any of them are?

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

The Bilderberg group, an elite coterie of Western thinkers and power-brokers, has been accused of fixing the fate of the world behind closed doors. As the organisation marks its 50th anniversary, rumours are more rife than ever. Given its reputation as perhaps the most powerful organisation in the world, the Bilderberg group doesn't go a bundle on its switchboard operations.

Telephone inquiries are met with an impersonal female voice - the Dutch equivalent of the BT Callminder woman - reciting back the number and inviting callers to "leave a message after the tone". Anyone who accidentally dialled the number would probably think they had stumbled on just another residential answer machine.

Leiden in Holland, the inauspicious base of the Bilderberg group
But behind this ultra-modest façade lies one of the most controversial and hotly-debated alliances of our times.

On Thursday the Bilderberg group marks its 50th anniversary with the start of its yearly meeting. For four days some of the West's chief political movers, business leaders, bankers, industrialists and strategic thinkers will hunker down in a five-star hotel in northern Italy to talk about global issues.

What sets Bilderberg apart from other high-powered get-togethers, such as the annual World Economic Forum (WEF), is its mystique. Not a word of what is said at Bilderberg meetings can be breathed outside. No reporters are invited in and while confidential minutes of meetings are taken, names are not noted.
If Bilderberg were nothing but a social gathering, for discussions having no conspiratorial impact on the affairs of the world and on the lives of the billions of people who aren't invited to the meetings, then the prohibition against participants speaking of what was said there would not exist. This is not simply "privacy." You expect privacy at a party, in the sense that you don't want uninvited guests crashing in. But you don't go so far as to forbid your guests from talking about what they said while partying.

Likewise for the confidential minutes. When the public interest is involved, or when a good case can be made that it is, a court can subpoena the minutes of your private club as evidence. Have the Bilderberg Group's meeting minutes ever been subpoenaed? If not, why not? Is this group "too powerful" to be made subject to the public interest standard to which lesser groups are held?

The shadowy aura extends further - the anonymous answerphone message, for example; the fact that conference venues are kept secret. The group, which includes luminaries such as Henry Kissinger and former UK chancellor Kenneth Clarke, does not even have a website. This year Bilderberg has announced a list of attendees They include BP chief John Browne, US Senator John Edwards, World Bank president James Wolfensohn and Mrs Bill Gates. In the void created by such aloofness, an extraordinary conspiracy theory has grown up around the group that alleges the fate of the world is largely decided by Bilderberg.
The conspiracy theory may be extraordinary, but that's understandable because of the extraordinary power wielded by Bilderberg's members. So much secrecy (as already demonstrated, it isn't merely privacy) practiced for so long (fifty years) must imply a reason. The members of the group prevent their doings from becoming general knowledge because they fear that the general public would not like what they learned. The conspiracy theory is most certainly the most reasonable supposition to make.

But "privacy, rather than secrecy", is key to such a meeting says Financial Times journalist Martin Wolf, who has been invited several times in a non-reporting role.

"The idea that such meetings cannot be held in private is fundamentally totalitarian," he says. "It's not an executive body; no decisions are taken there."
Such bullcrap. As I said, privacy does not extend to having a hush rule on topics of conversation. Secrecy does. And whereas Bilderberg isn't "an executive body," many of its meetings' attendees do have vast executive powers, or tremendous political or financial leverage over the executive officers, in both public and private sectors, of many countries. When an apologist for Bilderberg starts making excuses that don't really excuse anything, it increases the plausibility of the conspiracy allegations.

As an up-and-coming statesmen in the 1950s, Denis Healey, who went on to become a Labour chancellor, was one of the four founding members of Bilderberg (which was named after the hotel in Holland where the first meeting was held in 1954). His response to claims that Bilderberg exerts a shadowy hand on the global tiller is met with characteristic bluntness. "Crap! There's absolutely nothing in it. We never sought to reach a consensus on the big issues at Bilderberg. It's simply a place for discussion," says Lord Healey.
Consensus really isn't the only thing a meeting of conspirators might achieve. Another class of result is exemplified by the case of troops getting their marching orders. But in either case, the very fact that Bilderberg has held closed meetings of the most powerful people for fifty years is prima facie evidence that what is said there does, indeed, impact the "big issues," and when Denis Healey's saying "Crap!" only lets you know what Denis Healey is full of.

Formed in the spirit of post-war trans-Atlantic co-operation, the idea behind Bilderberg was that future wars could be prevented by bringing power-brokers together in an informal setting away from prying eyes.
Yes, in a world where evil is dominant and good people are passive, beaten, or cowed, war is generally prevented when Evil is given everything it wants and thus has nothing over which to fight. That's how I see Bilderberg, too.

"Bilderberg is the most useful international group I ever attended. The confidentiality enabled people to speak honestly without fear of repercussions. In my experience the most useful meetings are those when one is free to speak openly and honestly. It's not unusual at all. Cabinet meetings in all countries are held behind closed doors and the minutes are not published."
So now Bilderberg is likened to an executive committee, namely the cabinet of the president or prime minister of a parliamentary democracy.

The "confidentiality" of Bilderberg exists for the same reason criminals wear masks. If they didn't, they might be recognized, found, and punished for their crimes. Just so, Bilderberg meetings practice secrecy (not merely privacy) in order to keep participants safe from the just reprisals by those whose interests are harmed, after the meeting, by the actions of the conspirators.

That activists have seized on Bilderberg is no surprise to Alasdair Spark, an expert in conspiracy theories. "The idea that a shadowy clique is running the world is nothing new. For hundreds of years people have believed the world is governed by a cabal of Jews.
And that belief is a correct belief. Bilderberg is an organization through which that cabal of Jews, such as the Rothschilds, acts. Even within Bilderberg, there is a hierarchy. There are the invitees, not all of whom are Jews. The more regular and upper echelon a Bilderberg participant is, the more likely he is to be a Jew.

"Shouldn't we expect that the rich and powerful organise things in their own interests. It's called capitalism."
Well, I'm not a Marxist. But death to capitalism, and, if necessary, death to the capitalists.

Jerry Abbott

[prozak]

In Europe, where taxes are higher, gas prices have historically been double that in the US. As a result, people take more mass transportation and have smaller cars.

The USA running out of cheap gasoline is a boon to whites. It makes living here harder. I suggest we go back to golf carts and mass transit. Cars have brought nothing but white flight and other distractions.

[prozak]

Well, I'm not a Marxist. But death to capitalism, and, if necessary, death to the capitalists.

Agreed. Capitalism is a rabble-loving order that replaces traditional society. We want the latter. Thus, death to the former.

"DEATH TO THE JEWS." - Alex Linder

"DEATH TO THE UNDERMEN." - Vijay Prozak

[Jenab]

The USA running out of cheap gasoline is a boon to whites. It makes living here harder. I suggest we go back to golf carts and mass transit. Cars have brought nothing but white flight and other distractions.
More like horses and buggies. The cars will run until the government forbids their use in order to reserve gasoline for the police and the military. The cops and the soldiers will burn gas until there isn't even enough left for your golf cart or your mass transit.

I'll have to ask April Gaede to teach me how to ride a horse. I never learned. Or maybe I'll just walk everywhere I go, wearing my backpack with my tent, bedroll, food and water. And that little shovel you use in the woods to dig a hole when you can't find a potty. I wonder if I can afford a mule...

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

In fifty years, you'd think that at least one Bilderberg meeting had been successfully spied on. Have any reliable spies made their intelligence generally available? You'd also expect that fifty years' worth of meetings would produce a trickle of random relevant remarks that could be strung together for a partial revelation of meeting agenda, focus, or general disposition. Has a collection of such remarks been made?

Jerry Abbott

[n9odi]

I'd prefer a bicycle. I used to bike a lot as a kid and I went 20 miles without problems in about 2 hours or something. I can't remember exactly, but it's a great mode of transportation. One of those mountain bikes will take you everywhere. Though I'm not sure where you'll get parts to fix it if yours breaks down.

[Jenab]

Rising motor fuels aren't the only primary effects of fossil fuel depletion. Another matter for concern is the rise in heating oil, propane, etc. And of course electricity, too, since most electrical power generators burn fossil fuels to make that 60 Hz AC current.

Those of us fortunate enough to live in or near woodlands can harvest wood - at least axe breakable sticks - take it home, and burn them for heat in our wood stoves. If you're not one of us (and for crying out loud, why not?), then you'll have to dress warmly to get through the winter chill.

Clothes can be expensive, and that's why I'm glad that there's a place between my home and Hillsboro that runs a perpetual garage sale, where you can get name brand shirts or pants, even dress suits or leisurewear, for 25 cents to a dollar per item. I just brought back a 33 gallon trash bag full of stuff, including some souvineer outfits from Snowshoe mountain resort, and I paid only five dollars for the whole bag. The sales lady didn't even want to count my stuff. A single Snowshoe shirt probably retails at over $30.

Hillsboro is neat that way. Not many Jews, either.

Jerry Abbott

[n9odi]

Unlike you guys though, we can't take and burn wood to cool our homes in Florida. Living without AC here sure would suck lol.

[Jenab]

Summer in WV usually means not hotter than 90 degrees F. Winters get down to -5 to -10 degrees for a couple weeks each winter.

It occasionally gets cold in Florida, too. I went to high school in southern Georgia, and I remember hearing news that points south of Jacksonville were having temperatures near zero.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

I'd prefer a bicycle. I used to bike a lot as a kid and I went 20 miles without problems in about 2 hours or something. I can't remember exactly, but it's a great mode of transportation. One of those mountain bikes will take you everywhere. Though I'm not sure where you'll get parts to fix it if yours breaks down.
In 1978, I rode my bicycle from Waycross GA to Savannah, via Blackshear, Bristol, Glenville and Pembroke. It's about 100 miles, and it took me about eight hours, including soda pop breaks. My lousy high school class failed to come up with anything really cool for a graduation trip - a 20 mile excursion into the Okeefenokee Swamp, a place I'd been to a dozen times already, was the best they could do. So I stiffed the togetherness bit and did my own graduation trip to see my Grandma.

Jerry Abbott

[n9odi]

The only problem is, if you're at a point where cars are no longer possible to use for transportation, chases are you'll not find any bicycle parts anywhere. And bycicles can't get as much mileage as cars, I'd guess maybe 10,000 miles if you're lucky. Eventually joints will need lubrication, the rims will start to bend and lose spokes, inner tubes will pop, tires will wear out and etc.

[n9odi]

So, then: which "free energy" claims do you believe are correct? Do you have any reason to suppose that any of them are?

I'll have to start a thread on that in the science section once I get some free time to find some of my favorites.

[brutus]

You can bet your ass,
A jew's behind this high gas

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/jaynareynolds/jewgas.jpg

[n9odi]

You should start a web page with those comics, funny stuff. :)

[Todd in FL]

The main problem is not which alternative fuel will solve the price of energy...

Our problem is the fucking carbuerator!

All it does is DUMP fuel on the manifold to no end. In order for the piston to fire it only takes a spray of gas... not a stream like the current carbuerators are constructed to do.

I'm not talking about everybody buying a kit from the back of a survival magazine either. The carbuerator has to be reinvented to save on gas. If that happens then we could all stop spending so much for gas because we would get more MPG. If that's the case then consumption would be reduced and oil supplies would go up making oil cheaper.

Case closed.

[Steve B]

The main problem is not which alternative fuel will solve the price of energy...

Our problem is the fucking carbuerator!

All it does is DUMP fuel on the manifold to no end. In order for the piston to fire it only takes a spray of gas... not a stream like the current carbuerators are constructed to do.

I'm not talking about everybody buying a kit from the back of a survival magazine either. The carbuerator has to be reinvented to save on gas. If that happens then we could all stop spending so much for gas because we would get more MPG. If that's the case then consumption would be reduced and oil supplies would go up making oil cheaper.

Case closed.

I agree! Somebody needs to invent something that uses an electronic system that increases performance and fuel economy and provides the correct air/fuel mixture based on the engine's demand! Something that sprays fuel either directly into the cylinders or into the intake manifold just ahead of the cylinders and would in fact be system that would make the carbuerator obsolete!

Heck, they could call it fuel injection!

[Tench]

The main problem is not which alternative fuel will solve the price of energy...

Our problem is the fucking carbuerator!

All it does is DUMP fuel on the manifold to no end. In order for the piston to fire it only takes a spray of gas... not a stream like the current carbuerators are constructed to do.

I'm not talking about everybody buying a kit from the back of a survival magazine either. The carbuerator has to be reinvented to save on gas. If that happens then we could all stop spending so much for gas because we would get more MPG. If that's the case then consumption would be reduced and oil supplies would go up making oil cheaper.

Case closed.


The Poppet Valve is the modern internal combustion engine's biggest and longest lived weakness.

[Augustus Sutter]

The main problem is not which alternative fuel will solve the price of energy...

Our problem is the fucking carbuerator!

All it does is DUMP fuel on the manifold to no end. In order for the piston to fire it only takes a spray of gas... not a stream like the current carbuerators are constructed to do.

I'm not talking about everybody buying a kit from the back of a survival magazine either. The carbuerator has to be reinvented to save on gas. If that happens then we could all stop spending so much for gas because we would get more MPG. If that's the case then consumption would be reduced and oil supplies would go up making oil cheaper.

Case closed.


I don't believe there is a car in production today or probably even in the last 10-15 years that uses a carbuerator.

[Todd in FL]

I don't believe there is a car in production today or probably even in the last 10-15 years that uses a carbuerator.

I would venture to say that half of the cars on the road are older than 15 years old. That is still a huge consumption of gas.

Besides that, even fuel injected systems dump way too much on the block. It's not like MPG is exponentially better w/ injectors versus carbuerators.

[YANKEE_JIM]

Diesel-fuel prices rock state schools

Bob Golfen
The Arizona Republic
Aug. 21, 2005 12:00 AM

Price hikes for diesel fuel are rocking school districts across the state as school-bus operations put a dent in tight budgets.

Diesel, which fuels nearly all the buses that transport students in Arizona, has almost doubled in price during the past two years. In the recent round of climbing pump prices, diesel fuel has soared past expensive premium gasoline.

Average fuel prices in Phoenix last week hit $2.55 for regular gas, $2.80 for premium and $2.83 for diesel.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0821gasprices.html

:eek:


-Yankee Jim

[YANKEE_JIM]

Man dies trying to stop gas theft

FORT PAYNE, Alabama (AP) -- A gas station owner was run over and killed when he tried to stop a driver from leaving without paying for $52 worth of gasoline, police said.

The driver had not been apprehended Sunday, and police Chief David Walker said the case was being investigated as a robbery-homicide.

Witnesses told police that Husain Caddi, owner of Fort Payne Texaco, "grabbed onto the vehicle" Friday when the driver began to drive off.

Caddi was dragged across the parking lot and onto a highway, where he fell to the pavement and was run over by the late model sport utility vehicle's rear wheel, Walker said.

"Other vehicles were leaving the station's lot and there was a great deal of traffic on the roadway near the station at the time," Walker said.

Caddi, 54, later died at a hospital, Walker said.

Police said the driver was in his 20s or 30s.

Gas prices have surged to a nationwide average of $2.55 a gallon.

http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Man+dies+trying+to+stop+gas+theft+-+Aug+22%2C+2005&expire=09%2F21%2F2005&urlID=15231751&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2005%2FUS%2F08%2F22%2Fgas.theft.ap%2Findex.html%3Fsection%3Dcnn_latest&partnerID=2006


-Yankee Jim

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

this WILL be the death knell for desegregation via busing-- if it keeps up.

[Chain]

Poor Cadillac Husain. And it looks like he was half-Italian too!
http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=3745092&nav=0hBEdYN8
http://waff.images.worldnow.com/images/3745092_BG2.JPG

http://waff.images.worldnow.com/images/3745092_BG1.JPG

http://waff.images.worldnow.com/images/3745092_BG3.JPG

[Peter_Mills]

Fuel prices are soaring...my question is what are your thoughts, as this trend continues, in what ways will it change life in the USA, and how much and how soon? Any predictions? ..looking for any angles I may have missed, including effects on WN movement.


Average Americans driving short distances in somewhat fuel efficient vehicles should be fine, its shipping that will suffer and correspondingly raise prices on goods they move.

Airfare should also spike too.

[n9odi]

Why didn't Tony have a gun? He could have shot at his tires. And even if the driver continued driving he would get caught later as he wouldn't get very far. At least that would make stealing the 50 dollars of gas not worth it. Trying to hang on to a truck is stupid.

[Todd in FL]

Why didn't Tony have a gun? He could have shot at his tires. And even if the driver continued driving he would get caught later as he wouldn't get very far. At least that would make stealing the 50 dollars of gas not worth it. Trying to hang on to a truck is stupid.


Are you smoking crack?

If a store owner opens fire on a car speeding away he will do A LOT of time behind bars.

Who cares anyway? He was a towel head gas station owner. Poetic justice for towel heads in the oil industry.

[Mechanic]

I would venture to say that half of the cars on the road are older than 15 years old. That is still a huge consumption of gas.

Besides that, even fuel injected systems dump way too much on the block. It's not like MPG is exponentially better w/ injectors versus carbuerators.

Easy way out of the fuel crunch,and simultaneously help the enviroment.
A new Harley fl-standard gets 47hwy,36 city.
My rigid HD gets about 35hwy,28 city.
Plus cars suck. :D

[Mike]

Does anyone have the real insider scoop on why arabs/persians/pakis/hindis have basically taken over the convenience store and gas station business? A friend of mine who delivers beer and liquor for a living tells me they are now taking over liquor stores. I have heard they get cheap loans, but I have not seen any solid evidence.

Poor Cadillac Husain. And it looks like he was half-Italian too!

I doubt he was half Italian. Most likely he assumed a Western nickname to blend in easier.

According to police chief David Walker, 54-year-old Husain "Tony" Caddi died from his injuries shortly after being transported to Baptist Medical Center-DeKalb Friday.

Here's the link: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45906

[n9odi]

Easy way out of the fuel crunch,and simultaneously help the enviroment.
A new Harley fl-standard gets 47hwy,36 city.
My rigid HD gets about 35hwy,28 city.
Plus cars suck. :D
I get to drive as much as you do per gallon of gas on my regular 4 cyl car thanks to acetone as a fuel additive (check the science forum). Plus it's much safer, and can carry more than 2 people.

Are you smoking crack?

If a store owner opens fire on a car speeding away he will do A LOT of time behind bars.

Who cares anyway? He was a towel head gas station owner. Poetic justice for towel heads in the oil industry.
As far as tony goes,

If the guy was worried about getting away so much that he killed Tony, then why would he stop and file a police report after stealing gas and getting shot at? Plus if Tony was desperate enough to risk his life for it, then legal problems would be the last thing on his mind. AND if there wasn't enough witnesses to even report a license plate number, who would have reported gun shots at a thief? Who's the one smoking crack now? Don't let the jew anti gun pussy ways get to your head. Plus I'm not the one raving about carburators being the cause of this whole mess.

[Todd in FL]

AND if there wasn't enough witnesses to even report a license plate number, who would have reported gun shots at a thief?


Even so the idea is illegal. We can't risk talking like this here.

Kudos on the acetone idea... I'll use it asap. The carburetor idea is true and if the usa had been concious enough about it back 40 years ago we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

Peak Oil is a scam. There is enough oil around the world to make gas prices half of what they are now but the jews don't want us drilling elsewhere or buying elsewhere cuz it would draw attention away from Israel.

[n9odi]

Even so the idea is illegal. We can't risk talking like this here.

Kudos on the acetone idea... I'll use it asap. The carburetor idea is true and if the usa had been conscious enough about it back 40 years ago we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

Peak Oil is a scam. There is enough oil around the world to make gas prices half of what they are now but the jews don't want us drilling elsewhere or buying elsewhere cuz it would draw attention away from Israel.
If it's illegal to talk about shooting thieves, then I'd be in jail a long time ago. There's nothing illegal about it. We're not conspiring, we're just discussing the alternatives that could have been used in his situation.

As for peak oil, it may or may not be true. However, one thing certain is we should just do our best to improve our situation by focusing on alternative technologies (not that hydrogen bullshit) and improving our daily lives as much as we can with things like acetone. The worst we can do is let it halt our progress and take away hope.

[Jenab]

Peak Oil is a scam. There is enough oil around the world to make gas prices half of what they are now but the jews don't want us drilling elsewhere or buying elsewhere cuz it would draw attention away from Israel.
Nope. Peak Oil is definitely not a scam. It's merely the global extension of a pattern that has already come and gone in many countries that formerly were major oil producers, including the United States. Just as particular countries each have had, or will have, their "peak oil" moment, likewise the entire world has reached, or will reach, peak oil.

Certainly, there's still lots of oil in the world... in the ground. Peak Oil is the moment at which half of the world's original oil deposits have been taken from the ground.

But whereas the last half is just as copious as the first half was, there are important differences between the two halves.

The first half of the oil is much easier to extract than the last half. The first half gushes. The last half must be pumped or pressured with sea water, or both. And as the remaining oil of the last half dwindles, the energy required to obtain it increases...until the moment is reached when as much energy is required to get a barrel of oil as can be recovered by burning a barrel of oil.

When that moment comes, there's still oil in the ground! But unless God lends a hand and violates the laws of thermodynamics with suitable miracles, there won't be any point in trying to get that remaining oil. Any attempt to do so will burn more oil than you will recover.

Jerry Abbott

[Todd in FL]

The first half of the oil is much easier to extract than the last half.

My contention is that there are still more deposits that, being untapped, would gush just as freely.

¿No?

[Proud White Guy]

I believe there is a finite supply of everything.

We have too damn many mud people taking up space on the planet. They consume a lot of oil too.

If we lost half the turd world monkeys.We would have a plentiful supply of oil.

How much of this stuff do you think we have?

You want to talk about oil, and oil products, think about it. Oil is a petrochemical that is very rich in Carbon. Carbon is used in virtually everything you touch.

Our cars burn it, but don't forget, it is used in virtually all plastics. Look around,the keyboard your using is made of plastic, so are a lot of the parts used to build your cars.

Boats, most are made from fiberglass, an oil product.

Clothing, a lot of those polyester blends your wearing are oil products.

Computers, mostly plastic, again an oil product.

Furniture, mainly wood, but pressed wood is a bunch of sawdust held together by some form of an epoxy resin, again an oil product.

Paint, do you want to protect your car, or house against the elements, again paint is also made from oil, or petroleum distilates.

That barbeque you want to have with friends and family, guess what, the charcoal lighter, petroleum distilates.

Even the charcoal itself,is pure carbon, and where do you think that comes from? Yep you guessed it, petroleum distilates.

How about the truck that delivered your goods to the local store, that you buy your groceries from? Diesels, guess what thats a petroleum distillate too.

How about that airplane trip back to mom and dad's for vacation? jets burn kerosene. OOps again petroleum distillates.

Lets take a look at non carbon materials, such as metals. How do they get shaped? Wouldn't be by an energy source of somekind would it.

Lets take coal, or shale these are still a derivaitives of oil. We use a lot of that to provide the electricity we use to be online. We need this source of energy to make things light and heat our homes.

Even the insecticides, used to prevent our crop from being eaten by all the bugs, more oil products.

We are crackheads, completely addicted to this black oily substance, and it permeates every part of our lives.

I personaly think, we could use to lose about half the global population. You know the useless assholes like Lawyers, Bankers, Jews, Niggers, and Mexicoons,Indians, Chinese, and all would be right with the world.

I was reading about Hydrogen, as an alternative fuel source, and thinking, that might be a good idea, only to discover the Hydrogen they are using for these alternative vehicles is made from, guess what. Oil? WTF?

I am still convinced we have too god damn many people walking around, consuming oil, directly or indirectly.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

I don't believe there is a car in production today or probably even in the last 10-15 years that uses a carbuerator.
Crack Niggers and bong-smokers still use them

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

...Besides that, even fuel injected systems dump way too much on the block. It's not like MPG is exponentially better w/ injectors versus carbuerators.
Injection systems are designed to supply the exact air to fuel mixture for all conditions.
There isn't any magic for lowering fuel consumption.
Other factors must be dealt with:
Weight reduction
Aerodynamics
Tire type dynamics, including profile (rolling friction)
Drivers' habits
Tailoring vehicle use in a manner to where you would be using the vehicle when absolutely necessary, while planning your use.
For example:
Doing your shopping in bulk, when possible.
Running erands within a near proximity to running others

[Jenab]

My contention is that there are still more deposits that, being untapped, would gush just as freely.

¿No?
No. The big, easy deposits were found first (because they were big) and they were exploited first (because they were easy). Put yourself in the place of an oil tycoon, in competition with other oil tycoons for the Earth's oil resources.

You can either harvest the oil in this great big juicy plum of an elephant oil field, or you can go after the hard-to-work, littler fields instead. But if you give a pass to the plummy elephant oil field, your competitor will grab it, and his production costs will be less than yours. He can out-compete you for the customer's business. All the oil producers know which oil fields are easiest, and they compete for them. It's a capitalist thing.

Only after the easy ones are gone do they go after progressively harder to exploit resources.

Furthermore, nobody will hold big oil fields in reserve while exploiting small ones. Anybody who did so would only put himself at a competitive disadvantage. And rather than provide reasons to do something contrary to market incentives, politics only reinforces the market motive to produce from the easy oil fields first. Politically, there's no telling when a government might muscle in and nationalize your refinery, revoke your license or raise your leasing fees. The safest profit is the profit that's already in your bank account. Your expected future profit is much more speculative because it's still at risk.

So, no, there are no more Saudi Arabias in the world. They've all been found. They've all been exploited.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

There is, however, Titan. A shame it's a billion miles away.

Titan's diameter is 3200 miles, meaning it's radius is 2,575,000 meters.
It's surface area is 83.32 trillion square meters.

If only one percent of Titan is covered by petroleum (or a similarly usable equivalent hydrocarbon) to a depth of only one meter, the volume of the stuff would be 833.2 billion cubic meters.

There are 6.29 barrels (of oil) in a cubic meter, so 833.2 billion cubic meters is the same as 5.24 trillion barrels.

That's between two and three times the amount of oil believed to have been in the Earth's crust before the Industrial Revolution.

Yes, what a shame it is that Mankind pissed away its chance to use some of its terrestrial oil supply to secure access to a much larger supply of energy resources on other planets. The masses had to have their air conditioners and SUV's didn't they? The hungry had to be fed, didn't they? Heh.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

Please have a look at this image of Titan (Saturn's moon) taken by the Cassini space probe.

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/moons/images/PIA06222-br500.jpg

You are looking, in part, at a sea of complex hydrocarbons, similar to crude oil.

Titan's diameter is 3200 miles, meaning it's radius is 2,575,000 meters. It's surface area is 83.32 trillion square meters.

If only one percent of Titan is covered by oil (or a similarly usable equivalent hydrocarbon) to a depth of only one meter, the volume of the stuff would be 833.2 billion cubic meters.

There are 6.29 barrels (of oil) in a cubic meter, so 833.2 billion cubic meters is the same as 5.24 trillion barrels.

That's between two and three times the amount of oil believed to have been in the Earth's crust before the Industrial Revolution.

Titan makes Iraq and Saudi Arabia seem rather insignificant, does it not? Why pay the costs of war when there's this greater prize to be taken without war? Before long, Mankind will have so reduced the terrestrial energy resources that the door to extra-terrestrial energy resources will be permanently shut and locked to us.

Besides that, we have three states on the border with Mexico that have declared a state of emergency due to a crime wave caused by illegal immigrants. Pull the soldiers out of Iraq and send them to New Mexico, Arizona, southern California, and western Texas where they are needed NOW to repel an actual invasion of our country. We presently offer the invaders so little resistance that they do not find it practical or necessary to carry weapons with them. When they need guns, they get them on the black market after they've arrived.

Mr. President, if you can't do the job right, then resign and let me do it. Or somebody who knows how to lead a country instead of getting yanked every which way by Zionist neocons.

[n9odi]

By the time we have the technology that will enable us to cheaply transport that much oil back and forth, we won't need it any more. So who cares about Titan.

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

All that oil there would just fit into a pipeline from Titan to Earth, with nothing left over.
For there to be oil, there must have been abundant life there :confused:

[Mike]

There is, however, Titan. A shame it's a billion miles away.

Titan's diameter is 3200 miles, meaning it's radius is 2,575,000 meters.
It's surface area is 83.32 trillion square meters.

If only one percent of Titan is covered by petroleum (or a similarly usable equivalent hydrocarbon) to a depth of only one meter, the volume of the stuff would be 833.2 billion cubic meters.

There are 6.29 barrels (of oil) in a cubic meter, so 833.2 billion cubic meters is the same as 5.24 trillion barrels.Interestingly, Titan was recently explored by both an orbiter and a landing craft. The findings are that the oceans of methane once believed to exist are not there. However, there are still large reserves of some sort of hydrocarbons believed to exist. If so, does this lend support to the abiotic origins theory of oil?

As far as the getting oil from Titan, I hope you realize that the amount of energy required to move it off the world would far exceed the amount of energy you would get out of it later.

[Jenab]

Interestingly, Titan was recently explored by both an orbiter and a landing craft. The findings are that the oceans of methane once believed to exist are not there. However, there are still large reserves of some sort of hydrocarbons believed to exist. If so, does this lend support to the abiotic origins theory of oil?
No, it doesn't. What Palentine Creator espouses is the idea that primordial methane exists in Earth's mantle and combines with itself to produce the combination of hydrocarbons we call crude oil. While there is such a thing as primordial methane, it isn't found today in Earth's mantle. The pressure and temperature of the mantle would have caused any primordial methane to form carbon dioxide and water vapor. In fact, CO2 and H2O are two of the major constituants of volcanic gas, the third being sulfur dioxide. Minor constituants are stuff like hydrogen sulfide. Methane does not occur in volcanic gas in any appreciable concentration.

However, primordial methane does exist in the atmospheres of the outer planets. Titan's atmosphere is primarily: nitrogen, argon and methane. What happened on Titan was a kind of anaerobic photochemistry in which methane was combined into more complex organic molecules, including hydrocarbons. So Titan's surface acquired a load of liquid stuff that would be burnable in the presence of oxygen, by a different means than the biological-input process that occurred on Earth.

As far as the getting oil from Titan, I hope you realize that the amount of energy required to move it off the world would far exceed the amount of energy you would get out of it later.
You're probably wrong about that.

I'll assume that the hydrocarbons on Titan have the same density as crude oil does, on the average. That is: 887 kilograms per cubic meter.

The chemical energy contained by a barrel of oil is 6.12E+9 Joules. There are 6.29 barrels in a cubic meter, meaning that there are 3.85E+10 Joules of chemical energy in a cubic meter of oil.

Titan's escape speed is 2.64 km/sec. The energy necessary to boost a cubic meter of oil into a free orbit around Saturn is 3.09E+9 Joules. The energy needed to boost the oil into a circular orbit around Titan is only about half that, or about 1.6E+9 Joules.

Power can be transmitted through space by laser, though there's still some spread in the beam cross section. Titan is probably more than sufficient to provide power for a human colonization project in the vicinity of the Saturn System.

It's even possible that Titan's hydrocarbons would be helpful to those remaining on Earth. If an escape from Saturn orbit were made with the help of Titan's orbital motion, if the transfer orbit to Earth were of the minimum energy kind, and if the cargo vessel were apprehended near enough to Earth that its Earth-relative speed was roughly commensurate to the orbital speed at that distance, then there might be considerable energy profit left over.

Titan goes around Saturn at an average speed of 5.57 km/sec. This can be subtracted from the delta vee needed for a Saturn to Earth transfer because the launch from Titan can be timed to take advantage of the moon's existing motion in approximately the proper direction. (Saturn's sun-relative orbital speed averages 9.64 km/sec, prograde.)

I haven't examined Saturn to Earth transfer orbits in detail, but it looks like the Saturn departure won't be a problem. The transfer orbit's orbital speed at its aphelion is only 4.2 km/sec, prograde. If you look at those speeds and think a minute, you'd realize that if Saturn were to disappear at the right moment, Titan itself would enter an elongated elliptical orbit with its perihelion being about 1 AU from the sun.

The capture of a cargo vessel in Earth orbit requires the shedding of much kinetic energy without causing damage. The sun relative perihelion speed in the transfer orbit is a bit over 40 km/sec, which means that the Earth relative speed is 10.2 km/s, since Earth will be going around the sun in the same direction as the arriving cargo vessel.

If the catcher is in low earth orbit, and in the right part of that orbit when the catch is made, then its own orbital speed can be subtracted. A catcher in LEO would be moving around Earth at 7.8 km/sec.

So, under ideal astrodynamic circumstances, the arriving cargo would need to be slowed by 2.4 km/sec, which is 2.55E+9 Joules per cubic meter of cargo. This is 6.6% as much energy as I assumed was in the transported hydrocarbons.

There is also the 2.64 km/sec required to escape from Titan, which is another 3.09E+9 Joules per cubic meter of cargo. This is 8% as much energy as I assumed was in the transported hydrocarbons.

So far the energy cost is only 14.6% of the gross.

Saturn's escape speed from Titan's orbital distance is 7.88 km/sec. Titan's orbital motion provides 5.58 km/sec of this speed, meaning that another boost of 2.3 km/sec will be required, which will cost 2.35E+9 Joules of energy, bringing the transportation cost up to 20.7% as much energy as is contained in a cubic meter of oil.

Beyond that, there will be course adjustments, which might involve a post-Saturn-escape delta vee of 2.44 km/sec for insertion into the transfer orbit, plus some lesser maneuvers to make sure the cargo vessel reaches the exact arrival position at exactly the right time. And the weight of the cargo vessels will add to the energy cost. I'm thinking that the final energy cost of getting hydrocarbons from Saturn might be equal to ~ 30% of the gross energy contained in the hydrocarbons.

The Titan to Earth transit time would be a bit more than six years. Departure windows for the minimum energy transfer would occur at intervals of about 393 days.

It's not at all clear that this isn't worth doing.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

The energy cost of maneuvering away from Saturn can be calculated from the difference between the kinetic energy, relative to Saturn, per unit mass of an object in Titan's orbit and the kinetic energy needed for Saturn escape from the distance of Titan's orbit. See the post above for details (in red).

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

The....kinetic energy needed for Saturn escape...
That's a long time coming. There's no need to even calculate that one, before we manage to escape Earth 1st

[YANKEE_JIM]

Look for $3/gallon gas by the end of this year. If GW attacks Iran it will hit $5/gallon a few weeks afterwards. Home heating oil prices will explode as well this winter.

How will it change life here? Less disposable income; some families barely able to hang on; possible depression (in a year or two); higher unemployment (a lot of smaller companies won't be able to stay in business).



U.S. oil surges $4 to record above $70 on hurricane (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2005082819160002930866&dt=20050828191600&w=RTR&coview=)


-Yankee Jim

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

That lynch mob who's ready to visit their local gas station, to hang the last person on the chain of responsibility, would be better served when pointed in the direction of the stock exchange.
Thinner ropes would be sufficient for accomodating pencil-necked traders who never did an honest day's work

[Mike Mazzone of Palatine]

For those of you who still believe that abiotic oil is an invalid argument against "peak oil" (often written as "PEAK OIL" in all caps by fanatics on the web), I suggest you read the abstract and full text "The evolution of multicomponent systems at high pressures: VI. The thermodynamic stability of the hydrogen–carbon system: The genesis of hydrocarbons and the origin of petroleum" by J. F. Kenney of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America.

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/99/17/10976

...

Abstract

The spontaneous genesis of hydrocarbons that comprise natural petroleum have been analyzed by chemical thermodynamic-stability theory. The constraints imposed on chemical evolution by the second law of thermodynamics are briefly reviewed, and the effective prohibition of transformation, in the regime of temperatures and pressures characteristic of the near-surface crust of the Earth, of biological molecules into hydrocarbon molecules heavier than methane is recognized. For the theoretical analysis of this phenomenon, a general, first-principles equation of state has been developed by extending scaled particle theory and by using the technique of the factored partition function of the simplified perturbed hard-chain theory. The chemical potentials and the respective thermodynamic Affinity have been calculated for typical components of the H–C system over a range of pressures between 1 and 100 kbar (1 kbar = 100 MPa) and at temperatures consistent with those of the depths of the Earth at such pressures. The theoretical analyses establish that the normal alkanes, the homologous hydrocarbon group of lowest chemical potential, evolve only at pressures greater than 30 kbar, excepting only the lightest, methane. The pressure of 30 kbar corresponds to depths of 100 km. For experimental verification of the predictions of the theoretical analysis, a special high-pressure apparatus has been designed that permits investigations at pressures to 50 kbar and temperatures to 1,500°C and also allows rapid cooling while maintaining high pressures. The high-pressure genesis of petroleum hydrocarbons has been demonstrated using only the reagents solid iron oxide, FeO, and marble, CaCO3, 99.9% pure and wet with triple-distilled water.

Abbreviations: STP, standard temperature and pressure • SPT, scaled particle theory • SPHCT, simplified perturbed hard-chain theory

Natural petroleum is a hydrogen–carbon (H–C) system, in distinctly nonequilibrium states, composed of mixtures of highly reduced hydrocarbon molecules, all of very high chemical potential and most in the liquid phase. As such, the phenomenon of the terrestrial existence of natural petroleum in the near-surface crust of the Earth has presented several challenges, most of which have remained unresolved until recently. The primary scientific problem of petroleum has been the existence and genesis of the individual hydrocarbon molecules themselves: how, and under what thermodynamic conditions, can such highly reduced molecules of high chemical potential evolve?

The scientific problem of the genesis of hydrocarbons of natural petroleum, and consequentially of the origin of natural petroleum deposits, regrettably has been one too much neglected by competent physicists and chemists; the subject has been obscured by diverse, unscientific hypotheses, typically connected with the rococo hypothesis (1) that highly reduced hydrocarbon molecules of high chemical potentials might somehow evolve from highly oxidized biotic molecules of low chemical potential. The scientific problem of the spontaneous evolution of the hydrocarbon molecules comprising natural petroleum is one of chemical thermodynamic-stability theory. This problem does not involve the properties of rocks where petroleum might be found or of microorganisms observed in crude oil.

This paper is organized into five parts. The first section reviews briefly the formalism of modern thermodynamic-stability theory, the theoretical framework for the analysis of the genesis of hydrocarbons and the H–C system, as similarly for any system.

The second section examines, applying the constraints of thermodynamics, the notion that hydrocarbons might evolve spontaneously from biological molecules. Here are described the spectra of chemical potentials of hydrocarbon molecules, particularly the naturally occurring ones present in petroleum. Interpretation of the significance of the relative differences between the chemical potentials of the hydrocarbon system and those of biological molecules, applying the dictates of thermodynamic-stability theory, disposes of any hypothesis of an origin for hydrocarbon molecules from biological matter, excepting only the lightest, methane.

In the third section is described a first-principles, statistical mechanical formalism, developed from an extended representation of scaled particle theory (SPT) appropriate for mixtures of aspherical hard-body molecules combined with a mean-field representation of the long-range, attractive component of the intermolecular potential.

In the fourth section, the thermodynamic Affinity developed using this formalism establishes that the hydrocarbon molecules peculiar to natural petroleum are high-pressure polymorphs of the H–C system, similarly as diamond and lonsdaleite are to graphite for the elemental carbon system, and evolve only in thermodynamic regimes of pressures greater than 25–50 kbar (1 kbar = 100 MPa).

The fifth section reports the experimental results obtained using equipment specially designed to test the predictions of the previous sections. Application of pressures to 50 kbar and temperatures to 1,500°C upon solid (and obviously abiotic) CaCO3 and FeO wet with triple-distilled water, all in the absence of any initial hydrocarbon or biotic molecules, evolves the suite of petroleum fluids: methane, ethane, propane, butane, pentane, hexane, branched isomers of those compounds, and the lightest of the n-alkene series.

...

These people can hardly be called charlatans.

http://www.pnas.org/misc/about.shtml

About PNAS

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America

PNAS is one of the world's most-cited multidisciplinary scientific serials. Since its establishment in 1914, it continues to publish cutting-edge research reports, commentaries, reviews, perspectives, colloquium papers, and actions of the Academy. Coverage in PNAS spans the biological, physical, and social sciences. PNAS is published weekly in print, and daily online in PNAS Early Edition. The PNAS impact factor is 10.5 for 2004. PNAS is available by subscription.

PNAS is abstracted and/or indexed in: Index Medicus, PubMed Central, Current Contents, Medline, SPIN, JSTOR, ISI Web of Science, and BIOSIS.

[Jenab]

For the theoretical analysis of this phenomenon, a general, first-principles equation of state has been developed by extending scaled particle theory and by using the technique of the factored partition function of the simplified perturbed hard-chain theory. The chemical potentials and the respective thermodynamic Affinity have been calculated for typical components of the H–C system over a range of pressures between 1 and 100 kbar (1 kbar = 100 MPa) and at temperatures consistent with those of the depths of the Earth at such pressures. The theoretical analyses establish that the normal alkanes, the homologous hydrocarbon group of lowest chemical potential, evolve only at pressures greater than 30 kbar, excepting only the lightest, methane. The pressure of 30 kbar corresponds to depths of 100 km. For experimental verification of the predictions of the theoretical analysis, a special high-pressure apparatus has been designed that permits investigations at pressures to 50 kbar and temperatures to 1,500°C and also allows rapid cooling while maintaining high pressures. The high-pressure genesis of petroleum hydrocarbons has been demonstrated using only the reagents solid iron oxide, FeO, and marble, CaCO3, 99.9% pure and wet with triple-distilled water...
That might be possible. But what about the reverse (i.e., hydrocarbon oxidizing) reactions? They'd happen, too.

Look also at what the Earth actually outgasses. It isn't methane. It isn't ethane. It isn't butane or propane. It's carbon dioxide, water vapor, sulfur dioxide, and hydrogen sulfide.

If paraffins were accumulating from abiotic formulation in the mantle, then they'd exist anywhere there was calcite and iron...which is just about everywhere. There would be no volcano that did not outgas these hydrocarbons. And yet the reverse is true: there is no volcano, so far as I know, for which hydrocarbons comprise a significant part of the vented gas.

What you have in this paper is a theory based on what someone said has occurred in a laboratory. Theories don't stand on the neatness of their math; they must be tested by experiment before anybody sensible will trust them. So how does one test whether the mantle contains lots of abiotic alkanes? You'd obviously test the hypothesis by observing which gases evolve from mantle material when it is brought to where it can be studied; that is, you study volcanos.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

If the catcher is in low earth orbit, and in the right part of that orbit when the catch is made, then its own orbital speed can be subtracted. A catcher in LEO would be moving around Earth at 7.8 km/sec.
I found an error in my thinking. The Earth's gravity will nullify the orbital speed advantage of a LEO catch by increasing the speed of the incoming cargo vessel before the catch was made. The arrival would have to dissipate 10.2 km/sec in speed, and that maneuver alone would involve three times the chemical energy contained in the transported "oil." So transferring Titan's hydrocarbons to Earth in bulk is not feasible.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

I found an error in my thinking. The Earth's gravity will nullify the orbital speed advantage of a LEO catch by increasing the speed of the incoming cargo vessel before the catch was made. The arrival would have to dissipate 10.2 km/sec in speed, and that maneuver alone would involve three times the chemical energy contained in the transported "oil." So transferring Titan's hydrocarbons to Earth in bulk is not feasible.
I found an error in my identification of error. What adds is energy, and the velocities are derived from that.

When the catch is made, the cargo vessel will be moving at 15.1 km/sec, relative to Earth, and 7.3 km/sec relative to the catcher. But the energy needed to make the catch is still greater than the energy contained in the "oil," though now by only about fifty percent. So the bottom line is unchanged: it's still not feasible.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

In case nobody's noticed yet, what I've been doing up to now with the celestial mechanics can be described as "stumbling around." :D

There is a valid elliptical transfer orbit from Saturn to Earth with a departure on 16 October 2008 and an arrival on 5 September 2014, an ellipse with aphelion at departure.

Saturn's orbital elements are:
semimajor axis, 9.55491 AU
eccentricity, 0.05551
inclination, 2.489 degrees
longitude of ascending node, 113.666 degrees
argument of perihelion, 339.391 degrees
time of perihelion passage, JD 2452832.9 = 12 July 2003 at 9h 36m UT

The time of departure: JD 2454755.5 = 16 October 2008 at 0h 0m UT

Earth's orbital elements are:
semimajor axis, 1.000000 AU
eccentricity, 0.016710
inclination, 0.0 degrees
longitude of ascending node, 0.0 degrees
argument of perihelion, 102.94719 degrees
time of perihelion passage, JD 2453009.3 = 4 January 2004 at 19:12 UT

The time of arrival: JD 2456905.6 = 5 September 2014 at 2h 24m UT

The elements of the transfer orbit are:
semimajor axis, 5.178257 AU
eccentricity, 0.805321
inclination, 50.56564 degrees
longitude of ascending node, 161.52564 degrees
argument of perihelion, 182.44836 degrees

The transfer orbit is an ellipse with aphelion at departure. The transit time is 2150.1 days. The transit change in true anomaly is 177.55164 degrees.

The transfer orbit's angular momentum (per unit mass) vector is
hx = +1.471152E+15 m^2 sec^-1
hy = +4.403359E+15 m^2 sec^-1
hz = +3.818150E+15 m^2 sec^-1

The departure velocity (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
V1x = -690.2 m/s
V1y = -2645.3 m/s
V1z = +3316.7 m/s

The departure delta vee (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
dV1x = +2643.0 m/s
dV1y = +6614.8 m/s
dV1z = +3022.4 m/s
dV1 (magnitude) = 7.738 km/sec

The arrival velocity (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
V2x = +7299.0 m/s
V2y = +24344.0 m/s
V2z = -30772.2 m/s

The arrival delta vee (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
dV2x = +1655.3 m/s
dV2y = +3898.2 m/s
dV2z = +30772.2 m/s
dV2 (magnitude) = 31.062 km/sec

The change in velocity needed to match velocity with Earth at arrival is quite a bit more than I'd thought it was.

Oh - I know why. This is a highly inclined transfer orbit. Most of the acceleration is needed to change the orbital plane. Phooey. I'll have to hunt for a better transfer orbit.

Still stumbling around! :mad:

Jerry Abbott

[Augustus Sutter]

In case nobody's noticed yet, what I've been doing up to now with the celestial mechanics can be described as "stumbling around." :D

There is a valid elliptical transfer orbit from Saturn to Earth with a departure on 16 October 2008 and an arrival on 5 September 2014, an ellipse with aphelion at departure.

Saturn's orbital elements are:
semimajor axis, 9.55491 AU
eccentricity, 0.05551
inclination, 2.489 degrees
longitude of ascending node, 113.666 degrees
argument of perihelion, 339.391 degrees
time of perihelion passage, JD 2452832.9 = 12 July 2003 at 9h 36m UT

The time of departure: JD 2454755.5 = 16 October 2008 at 0h 0m UT

Earth's orbital elements are:
semimajor axis, 1.000000 AU
eccentricity, 0.016710
inclination, 0.0 degrees
longitude of ascending node, 0.0 degrees
argument of perihelion, 102.94719 degrees
time of perihelion passage, JD 2453009.3 = 4 January 2004 at 19:12 UT

The time of arrival: JD 2456905.6 = 5 September 2014 at 2h 24m UT

The elements of the transfer orbit are:
semimajor axis, 5.178257 AU
eccentricity, 0.805321
inclination, 50.56564 degrees
longitude of ascending node, 161.52564 degrees
argument of perihelion, 182.44836 degrees

The transfer orbit is an ellipse with aphelion at departure. The transit time is 2150.1 days. The transit change in true anomaly is 177.55164 degrees.

The transfer orbit's angular momentum (per unit mass) vector is
hx = +1.471152E+15 m^2 sec^-1
hy = +4.403359E+15 m^2 sec^-1
hz = +3.818150E+15 m^2 sec^-1

The departure velocity (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
V1x = -690.2 m/s
V1y = -2645.3 m/s
V1z = +3316.7 m/s

The departure delta vee (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
dV1x = +2643.0 m/s
dV1y = +6614.8 m/s
dV1z = +3022.4 m/s
dV1 (magnitude) = 7.738 km/sec

The arrival velocity (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
V2x = +7299.0 m/s
V2y = +24344.0 m/s
V2z = -30772.2 m/s

The arrival delta vee (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
dV2x = +1655.3 m/s
dV2y = +3898.2 m/s
dV2z = +30772.2 m/s
dV2 (magnitude) = 31.062 km/sec

The change in velocity needed to match velocity with Earth at arrival is quite a bit more than I'd thought it was.

Oh - I know why. This is a highly inclined transfer orbit. Most of the acceleration is needed to change the orbital plane. Phooey. I'll have to hunt for a better transfer orbit.

Still stumbling around! :mad:

Jerry Abbott


You are obviously an amateur. I could have told you that! Next time just ask!

[John in Woodbridge]

In case nobody's noticed yet, what I've been doing up to now with the celestial mechanics can be described as "stumbling around." :D

There is a valid elliptical transfer orbit from Saturn to Earth with a departure on 16 October 2008 and an arrival on 5 September 2014, an ellipse with aphelion at departure.

Saturn's orbital elements are:
semimajor axis, 9.55491 AU
eccentricity, 0.05551
inclination, 2.489 degrees
longitude of ascending node, 113.666 degrees
argument of perihelion, 339.391 degrees
time of perihelion passage, JD 2452832.9 = 12 July 2003 at 9h 36m UT

The time of departure: JD 2454755.5 = 16 October 2008 at 0h 0m UT

Earth's orbital elements are:
semimajor axis, 1.000000 AU
eccentricity, 0.016710
inclination, 0.0 degrees
longitude of ascending node, 0.0 degrees
argument of perihelion, 102.94719 degrees
time of perihelion passage, JD 2453009.3 = 4 January 2004 at 19:12 UT

The time of arrival: JD 2456905.6 = 5 September 2014 at 2h 24m UT

The elements of the transfer orbit are:
semimajor axis, 5.178257 AU
eccentricity, 0.805321
inclination, 50.56564 degrees
longitude of ascending node, 161.52564 degrees
argument of perihelion, 182.44836 degrees

The transfer orbit is an ellipse with aphelion at departure. The transit time is 2150.1 days. The transit change in true anomaly is 177.55164 degrees.

The transfer orbit's angular momentum (per unit mass) vector is
hx = +1.471152E+15 m^2 sec^-1
hy = +4.403359E+15 m^2 sec^-1
hz = +3.818150E+15 m^2 sec^-1

The departure velocity (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
V1x = -690.2 m/s
V1y = -2645.3 m/s
V1z = +3316.7 m/s

The departure delta vee (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
dV1x = +2643.0 m/s
dV1y = +6614.8 m/s
dV1z = +3022.4 m/s
dV1 (magnitude) = 7.738 km/sec

The arrival velocity (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
V2x = +7299.0 m/s
V2y = +24344.0 m/s
V2z = -30772.2 m/s

The arrival delta vee (sun relative, heliocentric ecliptic coordinates) is
dV2x = +1655.3 m/s
dV2y = +3898.2 m/s
dV2z = +30772.2 m/s
dV2 (magnitude) = 31.062 km/sec

The change in velocity needed to match velocity with Earth at arrival is quite a bit more than I'd thought it was.

Oh - I know why. This is a highly inclined transfer orbit. Most of the acceleration is needed to change the orbital plane. Phooey. I'll have to hunt for a better transfer orbit.

Still stumbling around! :mad:

Jerry Abbott

Looks a lot like my last tax return. lol

[blueskies]

http://marketwatch.nytimes.com/custom/nyt-com/html-story.asp?guid=%7BE6ED94D2%2DA78F%2D4F71%2DB34A%2DF7475EBA1DC7%7D&siteid=NYT&dist=NYT
By Myra P. Saefong, MarketWatch
Last Update: 3:42 PM ET Aug 30, 2005

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Unleaded-gasoline futures jumped more than 20% Tuesday to an all-time closing high as traders assessed damage in the Gulf of Mexico from Hurricane Katrina.

One analyst characterized trading in the spot market as "pure panic."

Supply concerns also boosted crude futures to a new record of $70.85 a barrel, while natural-gas prices rallied nearly 5%.

There is clear desperation among physical players actually looking for wet barrels of gasoline, and their desperation is leading to eye-popping premiums above gasoline futures," said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service.

"The panic is greater than anything I have seen since the Iranian Revolution," he said. In most places, gasoline prices will be "north of $3 a gallon," he said. Read the full story on gasoline.

Unleaded gasoline for September delivery traded as high as $2.50 a gallon on the New York Mercantile Exchange. It closed at $2.4745, up 41.39 cents, or 20.1%.

At the retail level, the average price for a gallon of regular unleaded stood at $2.604 Tuesday, according to AAA's Daily Fuel Gauge Report. That's slightly below the record $2.614 on Aug. 22 but 39% above the $1.874 of a year ago.

At the same time, crude for October delivery climbed to an intraday high of $70.85 a barrel before closing at $69.81, up $2.61, or 3.9%.

September heating-oil futures added 116.71 cents, or 8.8%, to close at $2.0759 a gallon -- an all-time high.

And October natural gas rallied to $11.659 per million British thermal units, up 52 cents.

"The crude price is not really justified, given current high inventories and the likely small (on a global scale) impact on production," said Michael Lynch, president of Strategic Energy & Economic Research.

"But the lost gasoline production of about 5-10 million barrels will hit an already stressed U.S. market, keeping prices elevated for weeks," he said.

Even so, if there is no major damage in the Gulf, oil prices should return to the mid-$60s levels," he said, adding that U.S. inventories are "much higher than last year and any short-term loss will be easily offset from storage."

Gauging the damage

Katrina has been downgraded to a tropical depression, but not before making its mark in the Gulf, which accounts for about 25 percent of total U.S. oil and natural-gas production. See full story on the oil industry damage.

Katrina forced the evacuation of 735 oil and natural-gas rigs and platforms in the Gulf of Mexico, according to the Minerals Management Service on Tuesday.

The evacuations halted the movement of more than 1.4 million barrels a day of oil production, or 95.2% of the region's regular output. Daily natural-gas production dropped by 8.8 billion cubic feet of gas, or 88% of production in the Gulf, the MMS said. See full story.

"The effects of Hurricane Katrina are no where close to worst possible case scenarios that were being presented [Monday] morning," said Michael Fitzpatrick, an analyst at Fimat USA. But "the damage is extensive, and clean up and repair will, at best, take quite a while," he said in a note to clients.

Agbeli Ameko, a managing partner at First Enercast Financial said that with damage data coming in "piece by piece," it'll "take a week to begin to really get our arms around the full extent of the potential total shut-ins and system-wide damage."

Either way, "oil and natural-gas prices will remain high given the magnitude of the near-term impact and the potential for long-term damages, plus the potential for additional, unexpected supply disruptions in such a low spare capacity environment," said CreditSights analyst Brian Gibbons.

Gasoline supply expected to fall again

Adding further support to prices Tuesday, most traders are betting that an upcoming government report will reveal a decline in gasoline inventories for the ninth week in a row.

The Energy Department will release its weekly update covering the week ended August 26 on Wednesday morning. Gasoline inventories have been declining since the week ended July 1.

Analysts at Wachovia Corp. predict that motor gasoline supplies fell 2.7 million barrels for the week ended August 26. Fimat USA sees a decline of 1.75 million, with Platts' estimate just under that.

Crude stocks, however, likely climbed 1.5 million, according to Wachovia, and by 2 million, according to Fimat. Platts' estimate called for a decline of 800,000 barrels.

Distillates likely climbed, with Wachovia expecting a 1 million-barrel climb and Fimat looking or a 1.3 million-barrel increase. Platts said the rise in likely closer to 1.4 million.

Natural-gas supply outlook

A weekly update on natural-gas supplies will be released from the Energy Department on Thursday.

That report will likely show a 69 billion-cubic-foot rise in the commodity's inventories for the week ended August 26, according to First Enercast.

"This week's average injection report is to be overshadowed by shut-in production left behind from Hurricane Katrina," said Ameko.

"Next week's report is expected to be roughly 25% lower than average due to lost production from this storm," he said.

On the other hand, "precipitation over the eastern half of the U.S. as a result of this storm is expected to provide relief from summer heat and dampen electric loads and demand on natural gas," he added.

The Coast Guard reports that seven damaged rigs are drifting in the Gulf, according to Jason Schenker, an economist at Wachovia, so prices may still rise further, especially for natural gas.

"In coming weeks, as natural gas injections shrink and the potential for inventory draws increases, we could see prices move even higher," he said.

SPR, OPEC to the rescue

High energy prices have already prompted President Bush to talk about releasing oil from the nation's Strategic Petroleum Reserve and OPEC to mull an output increase.

"The White House is apparently relenting on their national security assessment of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve and will make loans from the reserve," said Fitzpatrick.

The problem, however, is that "the oil might have nowhere to go if the refineries don't have power for several days," he said.

Indeed, an SPR release "may only mitigate crude prices from rising towards $80 per barrel," said Jason Schenker, an economist at Wachovia Corp.

The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries has "indicated that they might step forward with a 500,000-barrel-per-day increase in production," Fitzpatrick said. The cartel's next meeting isn't until Sept. 19.

Oil shares climbed along with the energy futures, with the Philadelphia Oil Service Index ($OSX) up 2.1%. See Energy Stocks.

Meanwhile, strength in the U.S. dollar sent gold futures to their lowest level in a month. See Metals Stocks.

As for the Reuters/Jefferies CRB Index, the broad measure of commodity-futures markets stood at 331.1 points, up 2.4%, on the New York Board of Trade -- after tapping a fresh record of 333.5 earlier.

Myra P. Saefong is a reporter for MarketWatch in San Francisco.

[Jenab]

OK, I've gone through the math yet again. Even with the best Saturn-to-Earth transfer orbit, even after pondering the use of aerobreaking, and even if we were to assume that the so-far rocket fuel were massless (but still provided thrust), it still isn't economical to use Titan hydrocarbons on Earth. It does cost more to get (specifically, to slow the cargo vessel down at the Earth end so Earth's gravity can capture it) than can be recovered by burning the fuel.

My biggest error in examining this problem was neglecting the energy cost of accelerating the rocket fuel that has not so far been burned. When this cost is added, there's just no hope of making an energy profit on a transfer orbit deal.

Further aerobraking would involve the extra cost of bringing the ablative heatshield all the way from Saturn, because the only other alternative is installing one in transit (and paying the energy cost of the intercept rocket).

So, nope! Won't work. No way. I've officially examined this problem to death.

However, Titan makes a dandy source of hydrocarbon fuel for a Saturn colony. The bottleneck element is free oxygen, of which there isn't much. Some might be electrolyzable from water ice. Otherwise, it would have to be manufactured biologically in Silent Running type forest domes, with big foil mirrors to kick in extra sunlight. Note that cryogenics won't pose much difficulty for storing liquid oxygen in this location. Note also that when you solve the oxygen problem this way, you solve the food problem at the same time.

Jerry Abbott

[T.Garrett]

It's $3.60 plus a gallon out on Long Island, a little less in the city. :D

I hear its gonna go up drastically in the near future. Gulf of Mexico oil production has been stopped completely, and it accounts for a third of all the petrochemical products used in the US. Much of the oil companies assets who operate in the gulf have been damaged or destroyed as well so we have no way of knowing when production will ..if ever ...be at the levels it was before the storm.

On top of that, Mississippi commercial river traffic to the Port of New Orleans (the largest port in the US) has been cut off. There are conflicting stories about the physical condition of the port and the jewsmedia is blatantly covering up the catastrophic damage to infrastructure along the Gulf coast by giving us heartwarming stories about the noble nigger surviving Katrina in the Big Easy. :D

Fuel is gonna be mighty expensive in the US before winter, Bush (or whoever pulls his puppet strings) should be thinking of civil revolt here and not over in in Iraq and be making arrangements to bring those troops home now or reinstate the draft. Theyre gonna have to do something along those lines real soon I think.
Cheers

[Kievsky]

I haven't seen these gas prices yet, but if it's true, I'm going to start riding my bicycle the 20 miles to work and back.

Of course people like me foresaw this and were screaming WTF, while the majority of retards proudly sported their SUV's and flaunted their gluttony.

I don't think this is the kick-off of the Long Emergency, but it is a foretaste. This is going to be an interesting autumn.

[Augustus Sutter]

$3.20 a gallon for regular in upstate NY today, how much near you?


Not so bad yet in PA. $2.70-$2.80 around me.

[blueskies]

Gulf oil, gas output posts slim gain

Huge hurdles to restoring production, pipelines

By Jim Jelter, MarketWatch
Last Update: 8:04 PM ET Aug 31, 2005

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) - Modest signs of recovery emerged Wednesday in the crippled Gulf of Mexico oil patch, with the federal government reporting a slight increase in oil and gas production on fields pummeled by Hurricane Katrina.

But the overall picture remained clouded, with offshore operators pointing to huge obstacles hindering their efforts to survey offshore rigs and return crew to production platforms.

The Minerals Management Service, in its daily tally, said about 1.37 million barrels, or 91.5%, of the Gulf's daily oil production remained shut two days after the storm, down from 95.2% Tuesday.

At the same time, the daily volume of natural gas production shut fell to 8.35 billion cubic feet, or 83.5%, down from 88% a day ago.

Oil and gas wells in the Gulf of Mexico account for about 25% of the nation's energy production.

A total of 561 oil and natural-gas rigs and platforms are unmanned, the report said, down from 735 on Tuesday, the MMS reported.

Chevron, one of the biggest offshore operators in the Gulf, said it was still gathering information from its fields and was unable to provide an overall assessment of how they had fared in the hurricane's 170-mph winds.

"Today, they are doing more fly-overs of our facilities to take a closer look or get a different angle. But we don't have an overall picture yet. We are not going to be rushed to judge what the impact to our facilities has been," Chevron Corp. (CVX) spokesman Mickey Driver said, adding that the process is slow and laborious.

"Even flying is a problem. Range becomes an issue. We can't use airports in Louisiana," he said, adding that helicopters simply don't have enough fuel capacity to survey the farthest offshore rigs when forced to fly from Florida or Texas airports.

The need to restore production quickly is being acutely felt at U.S. refineries, which depend on the Gulf of Mexico for about 25% of the nation's fuel supply.

Most refineries along the Louisiana and Mississippi coast remain shut due to flooding and a lack of electricity. See full story.

But refiners farther inland and in neighboring Texas are clamoring for supply, with several throttling back operations for a lack of crude, adding even more pressure to the nation's already hard-pressed gasoline supply chain.

Emergency supplies

To help relieve the situation, the Secretary of Energy Samuel Bodman said the administration approved tapping supplies from the nation's Strategic Petroleum Reserve. See full story.

While the government has not yet announced of how much oil would be released or which refiners would receive it, the annoucement was enough to knock crude oil prices down from record highs. See full story.

Also helping bring crude prices down a notch was news that the Louisiana Offshore Oil Port, entry point for 10% of the nation's crude oil imports, escaped serious storm damage and, despite a still spotty electrical supply, was in the process of resuming deliveries.

The deepwater port, about 20 miles off the coast, typically receives about a million barrels of oil a day.

But there were still plenty of disconcerting reports from around the Gulf that all was not well.

The U.S. Coast Guard in Louisiana confirmed that 6 drilling rigs parted their moorings during the storm: Two were still adrift, one sunk, one washed up on a beach, and two were still missing.

The grounded rig, Diamond Offshore Drilling's (DO) Ocean Warwick, was found badly damaged on Dauphin Island off the coast of Alabama. The company had reported it missing on Tuesday.

And areial photos of Shell Oil's (RD) huge Mars deepwater oil field showed significant damage to the platform's topsides. The platform, about 116 miles offshore, has a 220,000 bpd production capacity.

Pipeline bottlenecks

Meanwhile, the supply lines ashore were snarled by the shutdown of Colonial Pipeline, the main fuel artery between Texas and Gulf Coast refineries and the populous Northeast.

The giant pipeline system, which carries up to 95 million gallons of gasoline and other refined petroleum products a day, was shut when Katrina's floodwaters doused electricity to key pump stations in Louisiana and Mississippi.

Loss of the Colonial line was a major driver in the gasoline market, which saw unleaded futures hit all-time highs Wednesday in New York.

Power problems also shut the Plantation pipeline, a 3,100-mile system that carries up to 20 million gallons of gasoline, jet fuel and heating oil a day to distributors across eight southern states from Louisiana to Virginia.

Jim Jelter is Industrials Editor for MarketWatch in San Francisco.

[Mike]

I appreciate the interesting report of your findings. I never made so thorough an analysis as you, but as a casual space program enthusiast I knew that getting anything into (or down from) space is enormously expensive, not to mention perilous. I also knew that moving anything from lower to higher orbit can be thought of as largely a matter of changing velocity. Likewise, moving things to a lower orbit is also a matter of changing velocity. Changing velocity in space requires some sort of propulsion apparatus and lots of fuel. Hence I do not foresee any time when moving bulk raw materials between worlds, except perhaps the most valuable such as platinum or other rare metals, will be economically profitable. Still it's nice to know someone worked out the numbers. It was an interesting thought experiment.

OK, I've gone through the math yet again. Even with the best Saturn-to-Earth transfer orbit, even after pondering the use of aerobreaking, and even if we were to assume that the so-far rocket fuel were massless (but still provided thrust), it still isn't economical to use Titan hydrocarbons on Earth. It does cost more to get (specifically, to slow the cargo vessel down at the Earth end so Earth's gravity can capture it) than can be recovered by burning the fuel.

My biggest error in examining this problem was neglecting the energy cost of accelerating the rocket fuel that has not so far been burned. When this cost is added, there's just no hope of making an energy profit on a transfer orbit deal.

Further aerobraking would involve the extra cost of bringing the ablative heatshield all the way from Saturn, because the only other alternative is installing one in transit (and paying the energy cost of the intercept rocket).

So, nope! Won't work. No way. I've officially examined this problem to death.

However, Titan makes a dandy source of hydrocarbon fuel for a Saturn colony. The bottleneck element is free oxygen, of which there isn't much. Some might be electrolyzable from water ice. Otherwise, it would have to be manufactured biologically in Silent Running type forest domes, with big foil mirrors to kick in extra sunlight. Note that cryogenics won't pose much difficulty for storing liquid oxygen in this location. Note also that when you solve the oxygen problem this way, you solve the food problem at the same time.

Jerry Abbott

[brutus]

RE: SA Mann

One downside for us is there will be less people attending events and willing to drive around tossing out VNN papers.

If there’s a will, there’s a way!

[Chain]

http://www.zaman.com/2005/09/01/wolfgang_b.jpg
http://www.zaman.com/?bl=economy&alt=&hn=23576
Germany Blames US for Soaring Oil Prices
By Economy News Desk
Published: Thursday, September 01, 2005

Germany has accuses the US and "hedge" funds, which cause speculations from one country to another, for the high oil prices which now exceed $70.

The US is partly responsible for the high oil prices as it has not expanded its refinery capacity for a long time, said German Economy Minister Wolfgang Clement in a statement to German radio. High oil prices were not due to the oil companies but due to the US administration's economy policy, he said, and he hopes the US administration would change its attitude and take action to increase its oil refinery capacity. Indicating that Hurricane Katrina hitting US oil production facilities and refineries would deteriorate the situation, Clement said America would demand more oil from Europe and further increase pressure on oil prices.

Clement also accused the "hedge" funds of the high oil prices. Speculations created by these funds is influential in increasing oil prices according to the German minister, estimating that the share of hedge funds speculations was around 18 percent on the barrel price of oil, reaching $70. Clement called for international observation for hedge funds speculations.

The term "hedge" fund is used for the activity of rich investors who take their money of hundreds of thousands of dollars from one market to another in order to accumulate interests with extraordinary profits. The most famous example of the investment companies dealing with these types of funds are the companies owned by famous American business tycoon Jew George Soros.

US open strategic reserves
In the meantime, US Energy Secretary Sam Bodman said the White House will open the strategic oil reserves for use in order to balance energy production shortages caused by the Hurricane Katrina, one of the most violent hurricanes in the US history. After Bodman's statement, the per barrel price of US light crude oil dropped below $70, and the barrel of Brent type crude dropped below $67. A US Energy Department representative said the oil flow might begin towards refineries in the Gulf of Mexico Thursday. The US administration holds nearly 700 million barrels of oil stocks in Texas and Louisiana underground salt caves for use in case of any shortage in oil supply. The reserves at issue are not meant to be used to affect world oil prices, but in case of any natural disaster or war.

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

"...Germany Blames US for Soaring Oil Prices
By Economy News Desk..." (Indirect quote)
Germany has an illigitimate government expressing opinions that don't necessarilly co-incide with that of those constituents they pretend to represent

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

Little do most people know is that before the break up of Chrysler from Mercedes, certain Chrysler models were powered by Mercedes.
The following Chrysler is built in Austria and uses a Mercedes state of the art diesel which is as fast as a gasoline powered vehicle. In case you know anybody who is concerned about the rising cost of fuel, you can inform that person about the possibility of diesel conversion using factory parts. The engine itself can be obtained from a Mercedes-Benz in a salvage yard. The mounting can be ordered from Chrysler (they must supply replacement parts for at least 10 years, according to law). They have access to data regarding European models. All mounts and brackets can be found there. The fuel lines can be fabricated. The fuel tank can be obtained from an american vehicle which is diesel equipped:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/Tuerkenjaeger/diesconv.jpg