The best side arm

[heaven above]

I prefer something like the Beretta. Reasonably small. Fairly accurate to shoot. Almost no kickback . OK for short range. Small calibre, yes. But fairly effective.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

LOL OK stop kidding around now. 1911 .45 cal, hands down the choice of shooters.

beretta makes nice guns yes but they arent small, lol unless youre talking about the 32 tomcat which is a nice hideout

beretta makes a good shotgun...

if you have to carry 9mm, and you can choose, why not carry glock 17? natural pointer, I can hose down targets like gardener with that bitch in competition! light as shit, never fucks up, no goofy safeties, hell, its like like a revolver for all its simplicity of function.

for a med size piece that I can lawfully conceal, sometimes I favor a ppk frame whether it's my feg or my makarov. I'd not drop the coin for a walther, sorry.

[Sean Martin]

It depends on who you are and what season it is. In the winter you can carry a bigger gun because you have a coat and can conceal it better. Also people will be wearing more layers of clothing so you will need more knockdown power.

Another factor is where you are and what your laws are. If you live where guns are illegal then you don’t want to lug around a Desert Eagle, you would want something very compact. They just made a new 45 acp that is very compact and accurate, I forgot the name but it is the main story in last weeks shotgun news.

You must have something that fits your hand.

Also if you are a female a smaller caliber would be preferred.

I myself broke my right hand once, so I carry something that I can shoot multiple times. In the winter I carry a S&W 45 acp revolver, and in the summer a S&W 9mm because of it’s compact size.

My 45 is slim and with my shoulder holster it fits right under the lightest jacket without any detection.

If nothing else you can get a reliable Mackarov or Tokarov (Russian pistols) very reasonably priced around $100 and easy concealable.

[Proud White Guy]

I agree with Antiochs. 45 caliber is the only way to go,and you need at least that much power to penetrate a niggers thick head.

If your are going to go with a 9mm,shoot the body,it lessens the chance of a bullet bouncin off Leroys thick head,and hurting you

[Billy Roper]

I carry a Glock model 20 10 mm. The 10 mm was going to be adopted by the Famous But Incompetent, but their female agents kept getting their dainty wrists cracked from the recoil. So, they went with the .40 instead. This means I carry heavier firepower than Fart, Belch, and Itch.

Unlike the .45, I can carry 17 rounds with a 15 rd. clip and +2 extender, and one in the pipe, with comparable knock-down power. It's not much larger than a standard .45 frame.

Dr. Pierce carried a Glock .45.

-Billy

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

I carry a Glock model 20 10 mm. The 10 mm was going to be adopted by the Famous But Incompetent, but their female agents kept getting their dainty wrists cracked from the recoil. So, they went with the .40 instead. This means I carry heavier firepower than Fart, Belch, and Itch.

Unlike the .45, I can carry 17 rounds with a 15 rd. clip and +2 extender, and one in the pipe, with comparable knock-down power. It's not much larger than a standard .45 frame.

Dr. Pierce carried a Glock .45.

-Billy

oh, yeah, 10mm is great if you dont mind the cost of the ammo. Remember Don Johnson and his famous "Bren Ten?" That was before the Glock. Col Cooper was big on the 10mm as a substitute for the 45. but .40 seems to have caught on instead, I think because of certain manufacturing and reloading similarities to the 9x19 cartridge not shared by the 10mm.

[heaven above]

Aren't you from England? Did you shoot in the military? What caliber are we talking about anyway? .380 auto, 9mm?

Beretta's are good guns alright but very pricey. Paying for the name.


Yep, I am ex-British Forces :cool:

[heaven above]

Hell you guys like the big weapons !

A .45 or bigger is too much in my opinion. I believe they developed the .44 magnum to stop car engines, and not to kill people.

A tiny above .22, with some speed, will suffice.

Headshots ? We were always told to do the body shots.

[Bragi]

Just give me a Desert Eagle. Big gun, but I'm a big man. The Deagle sends niggers to Yhwh post haste with extreme prejudice.

http://www.o25o.com/_images/random/desert%20eagle.jpg

[Steve B]

oh, yeah, 10mm is great if you dont mind the cost of the ammo.

That plus if the shit ever hit the fan the 10mm ammo might be hard to come by.

AE, if you're a model 1911 man like I am check out Wilson Combat. The best .45 custom handguns bar none!
http://www.wilsoncombat.com/images/product/wsg-a-tt.jpg

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/index_pistol.htm

[Sean Martin]

Just give me a Desert Eagle. Big gun, but I'm a big man. The Deagle sends niggers to Yhwh post haste with extreme prejudice.

http://www.o25o.com/_images/random/desert%20eagle.jpg
You would say something like that. A big bulky gun that is not half what it is cracked up to be. You have probably never shot a gun in your life.

Do you just sit around the house invading thread with your stupidity?

Take your Jew gun and give me German technology (Glock) any day.

[Australianrage]

The best pistol calibre, in my opinion, is .45 ACP.
The best launch platforms for the round are the Colt 1911, or the Ruger in .45.
.45 ACP has twice the impact energy of 9mm. A torso hit within 25 metres of the muzzle is not survivable.
My personal preference is for the Ruger, because it is smaller than the Colt.
The Colt has a better safety system, but the Ruger's system is pretty good too.
All that you have to do with the Ruger is chamber the first round, then use the decocking level to ease the springs. After that, it can be holstered safely.
The first shot is double action. After that, it is like any other semi-automatic pistol.
For those who insist on a large magazine capacity, guys, get a grip.
A pistol is a last resort weapon of self defence. It is NOT an offensive weapon.
If you need more than two shots to get the job done you either (a) need more target practice, or (b) are in seriously deep shit because you are outnumbered.
If you are so outnumbered that you need 17 shots before you change magazines, you are going to be dead long before you get to the bottom of the magazine.
Been there, done that fellas.

[Jenab]

That plus if the shit ever hit the fan the 10mm ammo might be hard to come by.
That's why my favorite pistol is my .357 magnum revolver. It's big enough to satisfy most customers, and you can put .38 cartridges into it if you don't have the regular ammo. I can shoot this pistol with good accuracy, like the time I bagged a bobcat from across my goat pasture. He never knew what hit him: one second he was watching my rooster and planning on having chicken for dinner, the next second his soul was in kitty heaven.

I also have a .22 Ruger mark 2 target pistol, semiauto. I figure that even if a .22 bullet doesn't kill him, it'll make a Bad Guy wish he'd left me alone and beg me not to send the next one right between his eyes. And .22 cartridges are still really cheap, so you can buy them by the thousands.

Did anybody notice a similarity in statements?

"If by the instrument of governmental power, a people is led towards it's destruction, then rebellion is not only the right of every member of such a people, it is his duty." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

"When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." - Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independence

Two great minds. Of course they'd think alike on the essentials.

Jerry Abbott

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Hell you guys like the big weapons !
..............
Headshots ? We were always told to do the body shots.

aim center mass front sight picture and squeeze

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

...............
Take your Jew gun and give me German technology (Glock) any day.

I think the Desert Eagle is manufactured by IMI! oops, wrong gun for a WN!

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

That plus if the shit ever hit the fan the 10mm ammo might be hard to come by.
......

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/index_pistol.htm

yes those are top notch!

when I get my shekels saved up I'm getting the kimber custom TLE/II. and a surefire flashlight. I need something for low light.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

The best pistol calibre, in my opinion, is .45 ACP.
The best launch platforms for the round are the Colt 1911..........For those who insist on a large magazine capacity, guys, get a grip. A pistol is a last resort weapon of self defence. It is NOT an offensive weapon.
If you need more than two shots to get the job done you either (a) need more target practice, or (b) are in seriously deep shit because you are outnumbered. If you are so outnumbered that you need 17 shots before you change magazines, you are going to be dead long before you get to the bottom of the magazine.
Been there, done that fellas.

WORDS OF WISDOM! THANK YOU.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

.......
I also have a .22 Ruger mark 2 target pistol, semiauto. I figure that even if a .22 bullet doesn't kill him, it'll make a Bad Guy wish he'd left me alone and beg me not to send the next one right between his eyes. And .22 cartridges are still really cheap, so you can buy them by the thousands.
.....

Jerry Abbott

With a muzzle can? Like Oskar Jaeger? LOL

[Napoleon]

It really depends on what situation you plan to find yourself. If you plan to kill someone rather than make someone run away, go with .45 ACP. The knockdown power is unbeatable. If you want lots of rounds to fire off like firecrackers, then go with 9mm or a .22., but don't expect the same results on your target. Overall, Glock is a great brand, so is Colt, S&W, and Sig Saeur. Firearms are like everything else, you get what you pay for.

[Sean Martin]

If you plan to kill someone rather than make someone run away, go with .45 ACP. The knockdown power is unbeatable.

I have shot all these mentioned and believe me the 45 acp has nothing on the 10 mm much less the 44 mag or the 44 special or even the 41 mag.

But I would take a good 7.62x25 Russian any day. Good hollow points you have speed, unreal knockdown power, and the penetration with the size and almost the weight of the 9mm and it is an accurate round to.

But more mainstream is the 40 s&w, it is about the same as the 7.62 but not as fast nor is it as accurate.



Firearms are like everything else, you get what you pay for.
That is the golden rule of firearms, if you buy a $99.00 Hi-point 9mm don't expect Glock quality. ;)

[heaven above]

Now I believe that either Hechler and Koch, or Gloch, and even maybe both, are owned by British bods, whatever that means. To be British in the UK means today, you are a 'wog'. So whether or not those gun companies are owned by white British people, I do not know.

Nevertheless, I find that most new weapons are inaccurate.

The ethos nowadays seems to be to wound people, rather than kill. Now that would be fine in a military situation. But not in a 'one to one' defensive scenario.

[wolfgar]

heaven above
Now I believe that either Hechler and Koch, or Gloch, and even maybe both, are owned by British bods, whatever that means. To be British in the UK means today, you are a 'wog'. So whether or not those gun companies are owned by white British people, I do not know.

Nevretheless, I find that most new weapons are inaccurate.

The ethos nowadays seems to be to wound people, rather than kill. Now that would be fine in a military situation. But not in a 'one to one' defensive scenario.


Hechler and Koch is currently owned by three Germans and one Brit who is not a Paki or East Indian. Glock is Austrian owned, Gaston Glock probably still has most shares I'd imagine as that company's been around longer than the Glock 17 pistol which came out in the early 80's.

Now Khar Firearms & Thompson Auto-Ordinance are owned by Reverend Sun Yung Moon's son, they are Moonie companies which contribute thousands if not hundreds of thousands to the Republican party in the US.

[diabloblanco92]

Aren't you from England? Did you shoot in the military? What caliber are we talking about anyway? .380 auto, 9mm?

Beretta's are good guns alright but very pricey. Paying for the name.

The Browning Beratta .380 semi-auto matic is a fine weapon. It can accept hollow point rounds, and comes with a 13 shot magazine. This is a great load and gun arrangement for home defense. Not only are those hollow points manstoopers, but any missed round will relatively harmlessly disintegrate
I dont care for shotguns accept with a rifled slug load because the pellets they scatter all around, and will not be appreciated by pets, small children, etc, not to mention the property damage.
The traditional 22 has a terrible tendency to richochet and very little stopping power.
But get your BB with a 13 round magazine of hollow points, and maby a few extra clips, and you will be ready nto send any pack of Nigger or Spic home invaders to Satan, where they belong
Yeah, its pricey, but if there is anything you dony want to buy based on price its your shooting irons

diablo

[heaven above]

It really depends on what situation you plan to find yourself. If you plan to kill someone rather than make someone run away, go with .45 ACP. The knockdown power is unbeatable. If you want lots of rounds to fire off like firecrackers, then go with 9mm or a .22., but don't expect the same results on your target. Overall, Glock is a great brand, so is Colt, S&W, and Sig Saeur. Firearms are like everything else, you get what you pay for.


The AK 47 is a damned cheap weapon to produce, but effective.

[Sean Martin]

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/nyte-sytes.jpg

[Sean Martin]

In reality there is no best side arm. Different situations call for different weapons. In the city you would want to carry a small weapon because of over penetration. In the country you would want to carry a revolver because they handle shot-shells good (a must for snakes).

Things to consider
Gender
Hand Size
Immediate Need (dogs, people, gangs ect)
Season (Thicker clothes call for larger weapons)
How well the weapon conceals (I wear mine in a holster on my belt so this doesn’t matter to those in cities with strict gun laws the smaller the better)
Actual strength (if you are not a brute you can’t handle a large weapon)
Financial abilities
Location (home or on the street)
Local and state laws
Whether or not you have a CCW (Concealed Carry Weapons Permit)
All of these things are important factors

View the web-site below and it will give you a list of the most popular guns and their prices, choose the one that suits your hands, and personal needs.

http://www.horstheld.com/0-factory.htm

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

I have shot all these mentioned and believe me the 45 acp has nothing on the 10 mm much less the 44 mag or the 44 special or even the 41 mag.

But I would take a good 7.62x25 Russian any day. Good hollow points you have speed, unreal knockdown power, and the penetration with the size and almost the weight of the 9mm and it is an accurate round to.
But more mainstream is the 40 s&w, it is about the same as the 7.62 but not as fast nor is it as accurate.


I will have to seriously part company over this and say, it is possibly the most erroneous thing you have said on this board so far. Rather than taking it from me, or from you, readers should take it from the experts. Col Cooper says, .45 is the best hands down, because it is the fattest and it has proven itself time and time again. Reducing downwards, he prefers the 10MM. 10MM is better than 40SW because the bullets are generally the same but it has more oomph. Ceteris paribus, 10MM is better.

Obviously hollowpoint is better than roundball for self defense, in any caliber. Here is why. Penetration and knockdown power are inversely proportional. Penetration is gained when the shape of the projectile is streamline and thus disperses LITTLE energy throughout the target, like a "corelokt" hunting rifle bullet. Knockdown power is gained when a projectile mushrooms and disintegrates thus dispersing MUCH energy throughout the target. But a mushrooming disintegrating projectile does NOT penetrate well.

What's more is that there are few rounds commercially available in 7.62 Kurz that are hollowpoint. Maybe Fiocchi. Most ammo is surplus roundball. I have a CZ 52 in this caliber which has a heavy duty cam locking slide mechanism, and thus can take the very hot 7.62 Czech. But .30 caliber is not a good self defense round regardless of how fast.

If I have to be restricted to a .38 cal I would prefer a .357 round above all others, 125 gr JHP, but 9mm is tolerable. I think the best performers are said to be 124 gr JHP.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

The Browning Beratta .380 semi-auto matic is a fine weapon. It can accept hollow point rounds, and comes with a 13 shot magazine. This is a great load and gun arrangement for home defense. Not only are those hollow points manstoopers, but any missed round will relatively harmlessly disintegrate
I dont care for shotguns accept with a rifled slug load because the pellets they scatter all around, and will not be appreciated by pets, small children, etc, not to mention the property damage.
The traditional 22 has a terrible tendency to richochet and very little stopping power.
But get your BB with a 13 round magazine of hollow points, and maby a few extra clips, and you will be ready nto send any pack of Nigger or Spic home invaders to Satan, where they belong
Yeah, its pricey, but if there is anything you dony want to buy based on price its your shooting irons

diablo

that's a fucking pimp gun. buy yourself a good tooth too. LOL With that silly assed tip up barrell. That is ok for girls and elderly people but most WN are men who are not so limp wristed we cant rack a slide. Why spend $500 for this overpriced paperweight when there is a good version of the Walther PPK/S made by FEG in Hungary for $200 in the same caliber. Hell, a Russian Makarov would be better in 9x18 for $175. the only guns I would prefer made in Italy are shotguns.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

The Browning Beratta .380 semi-auto matic is a fine weapon. It can accept hollow point rounds, and comes with a 13 shot magazine. This is a great load and gun arrangement for home defense. Not only are those hollow points manstoopers, but any missed round will relatively harmlessly disintegrate........
diablo

.380 Man-STOOPERS maybe, but man-STOPPERS, NOT.

[Sean Martin]

I will have to seriously part company over this and say, it is possibly the most erroneous thing you have said on this board so far. Rather than taking it from me, or from you, readers should take it from the experts. Col Cooper says, .45 is the best hands down, because it is the fattest and it has proven itself time and time again. Reducing downwards, he prefers the 10MM.
I know from experience. Think about it for a second I am a white redneck that has lived in Ky and now WVA. I have shot about every kind of gun you can imagine and all my friends carry guns, if there is one thing I know it is guns. I have shot both the 45 and the 10mm and believe me there is no comparison.

Col Cooper also says the best way to carry his 45 is with the hammer back and the safety on, would you carry a gun that way? While that is how I carry a 10mm (on the 45 frame) not very many people would take that advice. Col Cooper while being the expert, is not above being wrong. I have a tape where he broke his #1 rule by picking a gun up and dry firing it without checking to see if it was loaded.

He is an old timer that is a hard-core traditionalist. He grew up with the 45 acp and rejects any change. I don’t know how you feel about guns, or how many you have shot so you may have had different experiences than I have had. But trust me when I say there is absolutely no comparison between the 45 and 10 mm. I have owned both and shot both and have no hard feelings against either, but the 45 didn’t have half the penetration of the 10 mm.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

LOL Sean I have been around the block or two, from when my dad taught me to shoot a 22 to summer camp in boy scouts spending half the day at the range to when he taught me to shoot a shotgun to the day I turned 21 and went out and bought a glock; between then and now I have done countless firearms educational/ participatory events, including gun shows, indoor ranges, outdoor ranges, machine gun shoots, plink-fests, DCM clinics, hi-powered rifle matches, gun club bullshit and IDPA and IPSC. In fact this weekend I am doing my second 3 gun match of the year. I, and every one of the fifty odd fellows who will show up, will most likely be shooting .45s. Maybe somebody will bring a glock 9 or maybe a few oldtimers will bring wheelguns although they usually shoot 45 too. Maybe somebody will bring a 40. But 90% will be .45. .45 is the shit, hands down.

As for cockd n locked, I dont carry that way no. But I am not a professional shootist nor am I in a walk of life nor a job that tolerates open carry of a firearm and you really cant hardly conceal a 45 cockd n lockd anyways.

But if I were a pro, carrying as part of my work, and cocked and locked was permitted, sure, hell yes I'd carry that way.

The reason that is bad and cops are not allowed to carry that way anymore is that they are not pros, they are barely competent with firearms in the usual case, and when they draw they like all other untrained persons, naturally put their finger in the trigger guard. If you are trained to use handguns properly, one indexes the finger until the target is acquired and then as the front sight pictures comes into focus the finger enters the trigger guard and squeezes the trigger for a surpise break. When you're done -- with whatever-- and you want to make safe, the finger is immediately taken out of the trigger guard and reindexed as being holstered or unloaded. But if you dont do this, you're liable to have an accidental discharge with a single action arm like the 1911. That is why the Germans developed the P-38 and why all cops now are required to carry DA/SA setups or glocks which are like DAO. 1911 is still the best.

Now training yourself to do that with handguns requires practice, and upkeep practice too. Most people dont have the time or motivation including cops. Usually it is only amateur shooters who put the time in, or those few LE or milpers that actually are called on to shoot rather than shuffle papers or push buttons.

Cooper was the rare combination of enthusiast and professional shootist and person with abundant real life experience shooting and being shot at by bad guys to be aptly called the "gunner's guru" and I would not second guess him when it comes to effectiveness of particular rounds.

[Intrepid]

I just picked one of these up last year, a Cz 75 Compact. Really a nice little well designed gun, I'm surprised they're not more popular.

http://www.waffenhaus-schneider.ch/Bilder/Waffen/CZ_75_Compact.jpg

[Sean Martin]

But 90% will be .45. .45 is the sh--, hands down.
The 45 is an outdated weapon, you know since it was invented that more weapons were invented that were more efficient and had more power. I am just using logic even if I didn’t know anything about guns I would know that.
But if I were a pro, carrying as part of my work, and cocked and locked was permitted, sure, hell yes I'd carry that way.
That is how I carry a gun, but if you are going to carry cocked and locked I would recommend a Glock, or a drop hammer safety S&W. Follow the 4 rules and accidents won’t happen.
The reason that is bad and cops are not allowed to carry that way anymore is that they are not pros,
Absolutely agreed just watch those California shootouts and anyone can see that. Sometimes I ask myself if they are taught how not to be able to shoot.
1911 is still the best.
You are sharp enough to know that the 1911 is a dated weapon. For competition it is the widest used but not a carry. It is heavy and bulky, only shoots 8 times (I know that is all you need) and has a single stack magazine. There is CCW S&W’s out now that has the 45 beaten hands down. Although in this area there are a lot of people that carry a 45 on a 1911 frame (the wal-mart guy I mentioned in another thread carries a firestorm 45) But anyone that does reloading or gel shooting knows that from a ballistics standpoint there is no comparison between the 45 acp and many modern rounds. I am not saying the 45 is junk but it is dated and there is better out there.

Cooper was the rare combination of enthusiast and professional shootist and person with abundant real life experience shooting and being shot at by bad guys to be aptly called the "gunner's guru" and I would not second guess him when it comes to effectiveness of particular rounds.
I like Cooper and have seen every tape that I know exists of him, but he is old and a traditionalist and not friendly with new ideas or later innovations.

I don’t know your age and I am not being smart aleck but I take it that you are some years older than I am by your weapons conversation.

[heaven above]

From my military experience the .45 is a little too big. I have fired the .45 Webley revolver, an officers side arm. The Browning 9mm was OK and a fair clip of rounds in there.

But not having been an officer my personal weapon was either the 9mm smg or the old 7.62 SLR a 'real mans' weapon. We used to come off the ranges with bruises on our shoulders. :eek:

The AR15 was like a toy gun compared to the SLR. The accuracy of the AR15 was bloody awful too, the foresight was as big as your thumb, and all plasticky.

Now I haven't fired the M60, but handled it, and it looks the business. :cool:

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

The 45 is an outdated weapon, you know since it was invented that more weapons were invented that were more efficient and had more power. I am just using logic even if I didn’t know anything about guns I would know that.

so youre saying quantity beats quality? odd position for a WN


That is how I carry a gun, but if you are going to carry cocked and locked I would recommend a Glock, or a drop hammer safety S&W. Follow the 4 rules and accidents won’t happen.

You arent understanding me, that's ok. There is a big difference by a person who is a regular shooter of handguns and one who is not. A cop for example may not be a regular shooter of handguns even if he straps one on day after day. Ditto most military and most front line combat personnel as well. The Germans recognized this, and combined the safety feature of a heavy double action pull on the first round which one has in a revolver, with the firepower of an automatic in the P-38.

The problem with the DA-SA arrangement is the difference in trigger pull. Fast instinctive reactions demand a uniform trigger pull. That is the problem with the P-38 and the CZ series for that matter and all the rest. For example I shot this weekend with a geezer shooting a revolver with a bobbed hammer. He only shoots DA. DAO is what a handgun set up like that is called.

A glock is another innovation because it is essentially DAO. A nine or ten pound pull each stroke. So it's always the same. SW copied Glock and introduced a whole range of DAO handguns including the Sigma which nakedly copied Glock in many other ways. SW are dickheads IMO.

Glock is also simpler than SW knockoffs because it lacks the external safety, other than on the trigger itself, a very odd innovation.


You are sharp enough to know that the 1911 is a dated weapon. For competition it is the widest used but not a carry. It is heavy and bulky, only shoots 8 times (I know that is all you need) and has a single stack magazine. There is CCW S&W’s out now that has the 45 beaten hands down. Although in this area there are a lot of people that carry a 45 on a 1911 frame (the wal-mart guy I mentioned in another thread carries a firestorm 45) But anyone that does reloading or gel shooting knows that from a ballistics standpoint there is no comparison between the 45 acp and many modern rounds. I am not saying the 45 is junk but it is dated and there is better out there.



What, you can get single stack 10 rd mags. Plus, have you ever heard of Para Ordnance? Look that up.

Reloaders? Every 45 shooting geezer I know is a reloader. Nobody reloads 9s. WTF is a gel shooter? I dont shoot gel I should targets. LOL

You want to talk about geezers, half the 50 or so guys at the match this weekend were 45 or older. They dont like the 1911-45 setup because they are old farts they like 45s because they hit bad guys and knock them down. They dont perforate or bounce off. They hit and hit hard, I hear getting nailed with a 45 HP is like getting kicked in the chest by a fucking mule or a goddamned flying ashtray. They use 1911s for a ton of reasons and not just because ole fart Coop says so. Anyways, I'm done explaining this. btw, I used a glock because my 1911 has a broken mag catch. LOL The glock has every automatic design beaten in one very important dimension: reliability.

Did say something about SW again? Oh yeah, they're the fuckwads who publically approved of gun control legislation a couple years ago. yeah, that's a great outfit.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Filipino friend of mine said he was in Manila, I believe, when he witnessed a Filipino policeman crack someone he was trying to arrest over the head with a plastic (is there another kind?) Glock, and it broke apart.

The cop then got his ass kicked.

well he should have used the slide and not the frame, LOL

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

I'd much rather be "kicked in the chest by a fucking mule or a goddamned flying ashtray" than shot with a .45 HP anywhere in my body.

Why are you wasting time with this guy? Sean's motto should be taken from David Byrne, "Stop making sense."

letting the days go by, water flowing underground!

same as it ever was!

[Sean Martin]

Reloaders? Every 45 shooting geezer I know is a reloader. Nobody reloads 9s. WTF is a gel shooter? I dont shoot gel I should targets. LOL

So you reload or just your friends? I can’t imagine someone that reloads and doesn’t shoot into Gel at least once to see what load does the most damage and has the most impact.

Plinking at paper doesn’t show force or damage or even velocity.

Come on AE surely you know more about guns than this.

[Steve B]

So you reload or just your friends? I can?t imagine someone that reloads and doesn?t shoot into Gel at least once to see what load does the most damage and has the most impact.

Plinking at paper doesn?t show force or damage or even velocity.

Come on AE surely you know more about guns than this.




http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

"With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth. The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation.

"Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed."


That being said, in a handgun, I'll take a .45 model 1911 anyday. Glock in a .45 cal would be my second choice only since I can't carry around of of these!

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~shatada/870MarineMagnum.jpg
Remington 870 Marine Magnum 12ga 23/4 - 3 inch shells.

[wolfgar]

The DA-SA isn't so much an issue for CZ series as they can also be carried "cocked and locked".

[Sean Martin]

While the 45 is a good arm it is far from the best and that is what I have been trying to tell people. I don’t deny that it’s ballistics are good, but to carry that big bulky thing around is not very probable unless you are going to carry it on a side holster in the open, I have a shoulder holster but they are not as comfortable as they seem.

A carry gun is something that needs to be light and compact, and someone that has which is the best sidearm to carry doesn’t need something as big as a 45, until they are more experienced.

Now I see a lot of people talking and there has been some good conversation, but the thing I am curious about is who that has given input carries a gun everyday?

Unless you are a police officer a huge heave, and bulky gun like the 45 is out, you need something compact and concealable.

If you are going to go big why not go for a 44 mag, or one of those kinds of guns?

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

So you reload or just your friends? I can?t imagine someone that reloads and doesn?t shoot into Gel at least once to see what load does the most damage and has the most impact. Plinking at paper doesn?t show force or damage or even velocity. Come on AE surely you know more about guns than this.

No my reloading buddies dont fuck with gel because they all know what you are trying to debate here which is that 45 acp hollowpoints are the best self defense rounds. Gel is for gun mag writers. Everybody I know who reloads reloads because they shoot ungodly amounts of ammo and couldnt afford it otherwise. They're not wildcatting or some shit. Again, gel is a thing people do for articles or department tests to compare new rounds. I dont need to reinvent the wheel.

I dont "plink" at paper I shoot IDPA targets in IDSP and IPSC competition. That is to test and develop practical accurracy. Go on back and read more Col Cooper if you want to know the hows and whys.

I wouldnt advise anybody who does carry every day to say so here. It just so happens that a self defense weapon is never far away from me unless I am in a secure facility in which case it doesnt matter. More than that I leave to the imagination. LOL

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

that being said, the gun you have when you need it is always better than the ideal gun that you dont have when you do need it. I had an old shooting buddy, who died at work with a bullet in his head, a carry license in his wallet, and a 45 in his car.

and that bullet was a 22!

[COTW]

What would de considered a fair price for a .45 ACP? Would new or used make much of a difference? If so what should I look for?

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

What would de considered a fair price for a .45 ACP? Would new or used make much of a difference? If so what should I look for?

if youre going to shoot alot get a 1911. springfields are good, to be had under 1000. I like kimber, wilson combat are excellent. but those are more like 2000.

glock, if you dont have time to shoot much, will be safer. and less expensive.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Post Office?

hmm, no he was working for an HVAC contractor in a shitty part of town in Gary or Hammond or therebouts. irony increases: in these noginfested crime capitals, the perp was said to be a White guy.

"unsolved mystery" it remained, last I heard.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

yep its a shithole

when I was a kid reading LOTR about Mordor, I would just imagine Gary, with the dirty hovels off the Toll Road, the refineries belching forth sulphrous odors and flaming smokestacks of the steel mills, the perpetual dirt and grime, the shambling negroes... fucking place is horrifying

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

lol actually the environmental regulations have helped clean up the atmosphere. and the steel mills produce less but they're still running. the refineries are running full capacity. oy vey and the nigras are too-

[Sean Martin]

that being said, the gun you have when you need it is always better than the ideal gun that you dont have when you do need it. I had an old shooting buddy, who died at work with a bullet in his head, a carry license in his wallet, and a 45 in his car.

and that bullet was a 22!
If he had not depended on that bulky 45 and had gotten something more concealable and comfortable to carry concealed (as a 45 is neither comfortable nor concealable) perhaps he would be alive today.

The size and inability to conceal is the main reason a 45 is not the ideal best carry weapon. However if you are going to carry it open as a side arm it would be a good weapon, but still big and bulky.

If you have never carried a gun before I would suggest going to a gun range and renting some different guns and shooting some different weapons and getting the one you like the best.

A revolver is always nice, I usually recommend to people a 38 special capable of handling +p rounds as you get the best of both worlds, concealable and knockdown power, not to mention penetration.

[heaven above]

[QUOTE=Doppelhaken]That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say the AR-15 was an inaccurate weapon. Unreliable and finicky about ammo I've heard countless times (and with good reason), but inaccurate, never. Mine isn't, I'll tell you that much.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the foresight was as big as your thumb, and all plasticky": :confused: A-1, A-2? I think the sights on the AR-15 are quite good as far as military rifles go, vastly superior to the AK sights, e.g. (then again the AK's reliability is its strong point). I've just sold an FAL because of shitty sights.


Well it was way back, and we were working in Berchtesgaden, Bavaria, Southern Germany, in the mid 1970's attached to a US Army unit down there.

We were a unit of Royal Engineers building a road or two, and a disco on the Obersalzburg.

Anyway, we did the 'civil things' like invite each others units to BBQ's, 'booze-ups', football matches and baseball and the like. Great times !

We used the ranges there, and after being used to the weapons that the British Army used, the AR- 15 seemed to have a huge foresight in comparison to our Army issue weapons. The British Army 7.62 SLR was a 'cannon' compared to the AR-15 armalite. But more accurate.

What range is the AR-15 usually fired at ?

We had to fire from 300, 400 and 500 meters on the ranges, unless you were very good. Then they fired from 1000 metres.

We had been used to using the old Bren gun,or GPMG, with extremely accurate sights, our version was the 7.62 hi-velocity round same round as the SLR.

It seemed to be like firing an 'air rifle',hardly any 'kickback', with the AR-15 .

I believe that the AR-15 was an 'injuring weapon' rather than a 'killing weapon'. The calibre being much smaller. The idea being that an injured soldier takes out about 4 - 6 of his mates attending to his injuries and carrying him back to base on a stretcher.

The 7.62 high-velocity rounds are killers, and no mistake.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

I have an FAL set up with a Belgian congo barrel which is pretty short but LEGAL of course, and Izzy sights. Man them sights are good. I dont even remember what the stock sights looked like. But it is still a heavy piece for all that.

I was visiting somewhere over Labor Day, where they had extended cable programming on the televitz, and saw a shooting program about USPSA. http://www.uspsa.org/ They popularized the three gun match. Try this out if you havent done it. Join a local gun club, that's the way to go. For pistol only I favor IDPA matches. Most competitors use ARs but I may just break out the FAL next summer for fun.

[Sean Martin]

I was visiting somewhere over Labor Day, where they had extended cable programming on the televitz, and saw a shooting program about USPSA. http://www.uspsa.org/ They popularized the three gun match. Try this out if you havent done it. Join a local gun club, that's the way to go.
I know there are people that will say anything to try and refute a statement, but I will say this.

I have never seen a black in a gun club nor have I ever seen a non-white professional shooter with the exception of Massad Ayoobe (spelling?) who is not in my opinion a quarter of the caliber of the white men he imitates.

Sport shooting is one of the very, very few sports left that is nearly if not all white and is great fun also, as anybody from the non-athletic fat kid to a polite housewife can pull the trigger.

Another thing I have noticed at professional shooting competitions that there was no non-whites in the crowd, even the caretakers (janitors ect) were all white.

Just a crowd of white people that has love and respect for guns.

Get the same amount of minorities (pick your race) and load them up with guns out in the middle of a desert and see how many people are shot by the end of the day.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

well there was a spabook at my last shoot but I didnt let that bother me. You are correct that generally it's overwhelmingly white.

Ayoob is lebanese ethnic, some would let him pass. He's a knowledgeable writer especially on legal issues.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

scroll down page for pic of israeli FAL sight

http://www.kagerind.com/Kager_Static_Home/S-gun_sights/s-gun_sights2.htm

[heaven above]

Blacks don't join gun clubs as there is too much discipline needed.



I know there are people that will say anything to try and refute a statement, but I will say this.

I have never seen a black in a gun club nor have I ever seen a non-white professional shooter with the exception of Massad Ayoobe (spelling?) who is not in my opinion a quarter of the caliber of the white men he imitates.

Sport shooting is one of the very, very few sports left that is nearly if not all white and is great fun also, as anybody from the non-athletic fat kid to a polite housewife can pull the trigger.

Another thing I have noticed at professional shooting competitions that there was no non-whites in the crowd, even the caretakers (janitors ect) were all white.

Just a crowd of white people that has love and respect for guns.

Get the same amount of minorities (pick your race) and load them up with guns out in the middle of a desert and see how many people are shot by the end of the day.

[heaven above]

Here what's this plastic sidearm that is causing havoc with International airport security ?

I have heard it's either a Glock or a Swiss manufactured pistol . Anyone know ?

[Sean Martin]

Here what's this plastic sidearm that is causing havoc with International airport security ?

I have heard it's either a Glock or a Swiss manufactured pistol . Anyone know ?
Well a Glock and a Tec-9 has enough metal to be detected by metal detectors this was a scare about 10 years ago.

It is possible to make a plastic gun but the internal workings would have to be metal, such as springs ect. However even with the strongest polymers made today it wouldn’t be reliable and useable for more than a couple times.

It would be difficult if at all possible to make more than a single or two shot plastic gun also.

Also your ammunition would have to have metal such as brass. Your primer and gunpowder could also be a factor when passing through detectors.

I am not aware of a gun that can pass through a metal detector or baggage detector.

It would be nearly impossible to completely make.


The only purpose I could see with such a weapon would be to shoot a guard that has a gun. In that case it would be more reliable to carry a plastic letter opener.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

please lets not take this discussion into that kind of territory

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

consider for a moment, Dop, calculating the elevation on this here mile long 22 shot... let's see, if it's going to drop 30 feet at what angle must the barrel be aimed? any artillerymen here? hell if I could figger that out.

for a second it took me back to the summer camp in boy scouts. when I was twelve years old, and the "rangemaster" on the 50 yd boy scout 22 rifle range was telling us that same old crap and we were all sitting there in the shade on that hot humid day smelling like Off and four day old sweat and dirt and wondering if such a fantastic statement was merely an exagerration or just an outright lie. ah the glory days, I can almost taste the contraband chewing tobaccy as I typeth.....

[Sean Martin]

consider for a moment, Dop, calculating the elevation on this here mile long 22 shot... let's see, if it's going to drop 30 feet at what angle must the barrel be aimed? any artillerymen here? hell if I could figger that out.

.....
As I am disappointed with you, you usually don't join the skralings and allow a thread get ripped apart.

Usually you show your diplomatic side. Did I hit a nerve by suggesting a person can defend himself with a 22? What's up AE?

Did I say to shoot someone at a mile? No, and usually you don’t lie and say someone said something they did not say.

I expect this kind of behavior from trolls and children but you are above that.

What gives? :confused:

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

first off Dop is no skraeling his is a free White man, so he cant be a skraeling.

second off, you asked for it dude, by the things you said. excuse me but when it comes to guns I am completely opinionated and I'm not afraid to say so. some things in life are mercifully knowable and objective. religion not but self defense yes.

Just relax, this is VNNForum, you only stick around here if you like to take a beating once in a while. This is to usual forums what UFC is to usual karate schools. hang around for a while. you cant say you're not having fun.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

oh yeah. did I say, nobody willingly tries to defend themselves with a 22 if there's anything better to be had? repeat.

one more thing, the only intel service I know of that recommends the use of 22lr is the goddamned Izzy jews. See By way of Deception by Ostrovsky. Beretta 22. and that is not for self defense, that is for OFFENSE.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Everyone knows the suppressed Ruger MK II .22 is the classic assassin's weapon (especially Oscar Yeager).

Yep I read Hunter right after I got my first Ruger Mk2. I got the bull barrell. And you know me-- I kept it legal. LOL they used it in goodfellas too, in the parking lot, remember?

I did go shooting with a class 3 dealer once who had one of these with the integral suppressor, pretty nifty! With subsonic ammo, all you heard was the action going back and forth, a PFFFT! sound, and the lead hitting the target. All at once, kind of. But with supersonic ammo, it was wierd-- no muzzle report, so you could hear the crack downrange. That is different, when it's normal the muzzle report blots out the sound of the sonic crack. I had read about this but hearing it was something else. Cool!

[Steve B]

Yep I read Hunter right after I got my first Ruger Mk2. I got the bull barrell. And you know me-- I kept it legal. LOL they used it in goodfellas too, in the parking lot, remember?

I did go shooting with a class 3 dealer once who had one of these with the integral suppressor, pretty nifty! With subsonic ammo, all you heard was the action going back and forth, a PFFFT! sound, and the lead hitting the target. All at once, kind of. But with supersonic ammo, it was wierd-- no muzzle report, so you could hear the crack downrange. That is different, when it's normal the muzzle report blots out the sound of the sonic crack. I had read about this but hearing it was something else. Cool!

Geeze, you guys must be rich! The AMPHIBIAN "S" and the BADLANDER sell for over 1200 shekels!

http://www.gunsamerica.com/./upload/976036430.jpg

[heaven above]

Best side arm ? What about a 'sawn off' 12 bore shotgun ? Highly illegal in the UK, but what the feck !

This is the best for close combat :D

[heaven above]

I suppose it's just the red hair that makes me want the 'sawn off' jobby.


All us redheads get the treatment. I don't care :-)

[STORMSOLDAAT]

I had always found a house brick to be very handy! :rolleyes:

[Rob Roy MacGregor]

Yep, I am ex-British Forces :cool:
Same here... only American Forces (Army Airborne).


http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors/firearms/2003/9/top_gun/images/sb_lg_magnum-lg.jpg
If only I could conceal it... LOL!

[heaven above]

Is that a .50 Magnum ?

What is the view of the forum with the even larger Russian side arm ?

Me nothing so glamourous as special forces. Was Royal Engineers, an explosives man I suppose.

[Steve B]

if youre going to shoot alot get a 1911. springfields are good, to be had under 1000. I like kimber, wilson combat are excellent. but those are more like 2000.

glock, if you dont have time to shoot much, will be safer. and less expensive.

Hey AE,

Did you hear Sigarms came out with a model 1911? Supposed to be one hell of a nice gun.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/GAgsr_0401A.jpg

It's big news in the 1911 world when a major firearms company offers its own version of Browning's classic platform for the first time. Last year Smith & Wesson did it. Now, in even more of a shocker, Sigarms has a 1911.

It's no secret that S&W had been making 1911 frames for other makers for years. But SIG is a company that's been legendary for producing state-of-the-art double-action service autos, notably the P220 and the terrific P226. So what's with offering a German-pedigreed version of what most shooters take to be the classic American pistol of the last century? Well, forget preconceived notions. I've recently shot the SIG 1911, and any doubts I had evaporated after the first magazine.

First off, let's deal with the nomenclature. The pistol is called GSR, for Granite Series Rail. "Granite" is in deference to Sigarms' home base, the Granite State of New Hampshire. The "Rail" refers to the integral tactical light rail the GSR sports. The pistol comes in two identically priced flavors: matte stainless with checkered wood grips or black Nitron-finished with synthetic Ergo Grip XT Extreme Use Grips. I shot the black one.



First off, there's no guide rod. Regardless of how you feel about guide rods, some guns do shoot better with them. But that's by no means an across-the-board situation; there are a heck of a lot of accurized, pre-guide-rod 1911s and old Colt Gold Cups that'll hang with anything in terms of shooting tight groups. And I don't think anyone forced to choose between two equally accurate and reliable guns--one with a conventional recoil-spring plunger and one with a guide rod--would choose the one with the guide rod. Maybe it's just me, but being able to disassemble a 1911 without an Allen wrench and an extra set of thumbs rates as a good thing. For those of us who grew up shooting "loose as a goose" GI guns, it was enough of a concession to deal with a bushing wrench once we stepped up to 1911s with tighter tolerances and bigger price tags.

Accuracy with my test gun was good to phenomenal. From 25 yards the best results (five-shot groups from a sandbagged rest) were with Speer Gold Dot 230-grain JHP (1 1/4 inches) and Black Hills 200-grain SWC (1 3/4 inches). I tried some Taurus 185-grain Hex JHPs and managed to put four shots into 1 1/2 inches but was plagued repeatedly trying to better that by a fifth-shot flyer that kept opening things up to 2 1/2 or three inches. Buffalo Bore's stout 200-grain JHP Plus-P stuff ran at a very respectable three inches continually. All groups, incidentally, were pretty close to point of aim, indicating the SIG was pretty democratic when it came to throwing different brands/weights into the money. The trigger broke at a nice, fairly crisp four pounds.

I was running out of time, but I couldn't resist trying the gun at 50 yards with some of the Black Hills 200-grain SWC stuff. For three, five-shot groups, I averaged slightly over two inches, the gun clustering them low but right on line windage-wise. The best group measured 1 7/8 inches center to center, which is about as well as I've ever done (or am capable of doing) with any iron-sighted handgun at 50 yards.

SPECIFICATIONS




Importer: www.sigarms.com
Action: Recoil-operated single-action semiauto
Caliber: .45 ACP
Capacity: 8+1
Barrel length: 5 in. Overall length: 8.65 in.
Weight: 39.2 ounces (w/o mag.)
Sights: Novak three-dot (drift adj. for windage)
Grips: Synthetic (wood on GSR Stainless Model)
Finish: Black Nitron (GSR Model)
Price: $1,077



The gun functioned without a hitch. Considering the fact that I was shooting a lot of lead SWC ammo and the gun hadn't yet been broken in, that in itself is fairly unusual.

The SIG GSR is a first-class maiden effort featuring Novak sights and magazines (two per gun), extended beavertail, Commander-style hammer, match-grade barrel (obviously) and a long external extractor. It's hand-lapped for frame-to-slide fit and is extremely smooth and tight. It's got a (by now almost obligatory) rail for lights and lasers, which, I feel, increases utility at the expense of aesthetics. Speaking of looks, I sort of prefer the wood grips on the matte stainless version, but the black-coated GSR I shot (it's also stainless beneath the black) functioned and grouped so well, any cosmetic gripes seem sort of piddly. This gun feels good in the hand, cycles when you shoot it and hits what you aim it at. What else is there?

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/gsr_0401/

[Rob Roy MacGregor]

Ever see the Carbine Conversion you can get for 1911s?

http://www.mechtechsys.com/images/CCU-1911_650x230.jpg

http://www.mechtechsys.com/images/1911_CCU_assembled.jpg

They make them for Glock too.

http://www.mechtechsys.com/

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Hey AE,

Did you hear Sigarms came out with a model 1911? Supposed to be one hell of a nice gun.
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/GAgsr_0401A.jpg

It's big news in the 1911 world when a major firearms company offers its own version of Browning's classic platform for the first time. Last year Smith & Wesson did it. Now, in even more of a shocker, Sigarms has a 1911.


Oh shit, my heart skipped a beat. What a beauty. a 1911 made by SIG? Oh fuck, sigarms are so quality. 1911 made in Germany, best of both worlds?

I will reconsider my plan to get a kimber until I see this one. Oh fuck, I cant wait to shoot this piece, sig is so tits! its not even on their website yet!

[Steve B]

Oh shit, my heart skipped a beat. What a beauty. a 1911 made by SIG? Oh fuck, sigarms are so quality. 1911 made in Germany, best of both worlds?

I will reconsider my plan to get a kimber until I see this one. Oh fuck, I cant wait to shoot this piece, sig is so tits! its not even on their website yet!

Right here, AE! Retails for about 1100 bucks!

http://www.sigarms.com/products/gsr.asp

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

What happened to focusing on political power, "jews took over without a shot fired...gun nuts are the most atomized, declawed and disenfranchised freaks, blah, blah?"

I put it to you, Sir, that you are a hypocrite, and that you eat too much fromage francais. :eek: Wifey shall put you on a twofold diet of reduced congealed dairy and fewer impulse purchases (at least those that don't augment our collective).


I demurr.... you know what Emerson said, about consistency eh?

Anyways, I am not a socially atomized gun nut, I am an enracinated, well adjusted shootist. LOL

As for fromage Francais, my faves are chevre, on a little spinach with some vinaigrette, roquefort on a hamburger, and brie with candied apricots. Not uncommon tastes, but they taste uncommonly good. My wife wants me to go on a diet but since I do most of the cooking she happily acquiesces to my culinary whims. LOL

This 45 thing is overdue I assure you. I have been planning it a long time and squirrreling shekels away. I have reduced my book buying budget significantly and tightened the screws hither and yon to make space for this important acquisition. Yes, I wanted the Kimber custom II/TLE because of the sight rail and rave reviews, but I see this one has a sight rail too! Dropping a yard on a good sidearm is worth it if you are going to fit it into your practice and self defense routine and I assuredly will.

I only have irons for shooting. None of them are NIB. I dont fuck with "collecting." I'm too poor for that. But I'm not too poor for this. And not too poor to buy a few VNN tabloids. LOL This year is turning out better than last, and I should have this addition ready for the winter indoor IPSC league.

After this, the only thing to add to the arsenal will be the Steyr Scout in 308. That will take me another year or two maybe. Or maybe I will cut loose some of my old junkers to make space in my mega-secure safe. Better one good weapon that you are competent with than four or five pieces of crap. Eh? Just another trifle.....

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

his worst offense was composing a poem with a memorable first line, to mourn the passing of the tyrant lincoln, "when lilacs last in the dooryard bloomed"

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

well I know where you're coming from. also as a former presbyterian WGS probably liked Lincoln's stern demeanor. And the Biblical scale of his violence. LOL

I think all Lincoln's talk about repatriation and "nothing I would say or do would elevate the negro to a position of social or political equality to the White man" was a load of shit, lies fed to the electorate. Abolitionists backed him, and he used their rhetoric plenty, to mask the huge economic unfairness of the federal government endeavoring to TAKE private property (negores) without just compensation as required by the fifth amendment.

Alternatives? Congress could have passed a bill to levy a tax to pay for the manumission of slaves and their deportation. That would have been JUST. That however was not in the cards: the northernors didnt want to pay for it and the southernors were not just going to be walked on like slaves themselves.

The second most just solution would have been to NOT preserve the union and just let the South go. The framers of the constitution discussed secession and it was regarded as a remedy of the states which entered into the constitutional federation in the first place, to leave it.

but the bottom line for us today is to remember how all such large scale social conflicts are resolved in the end: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

-------------------
Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

[Warhammer]

I own a Tokarev TT-33/54 Frankenstein with custom wolf springs and a mild trigger job, it's my favorite at 1602 FPS and 510 lbs of muzzle energy with a superior effective range over the S&W 4340 STW (.40) I own,
But the 7.62X25 is kept from being a truly effective caliber imo, by the total lack of .310 diameter H.P. bullets. .308 will work if you enjoy 5" groups at 15 feet though. FMJ pistol ammo is not the way to go for CQB obviously.
.

Oh, one thing, if you own a TT-33 or T-54 keep an eye out for the green and silver Seller& Bellot ammo, it's the right pressure and correct bullet dia. Not to mention waterproof, non corrosive current production and very accurate. I bought 500 rounds 2 years ago for $79.99. If you have an old striker spring replace it beforehand as Czech sinoxid primers are notoriously hard.

For the .40, I’ve been using Hornady 155 Gr. XTP loads, with fantastic results; 2,050 rounds and 2 misfires, not bad. Worst ammo I used was Remington 180 gr. HP which was total garbage, ( but great in my gfriends CZ) Winchester was much better and Federal Hydra-shoks were surprisingly accurate for such an ancient bullet design.

Im thinking about trading them both in for a CZ 97B (http://www.cz-usa.com/product.detail.php?id=43) to take advantage of the new generation .45 ammo that’s out there. Reportedly, it's actually more accurate than the basic Springfield "loaded" series but I have yet to test this for myself. I have owned CZ 75’s in the past and consider them to be among the worlds finest semi autos..Anyone else own one?

[Intrepid]

Originally Posted by Warhammer
Im thinking about trading them both in for a CZ 97B to take advantage of the new generation .45 ammo that’s out there. Reportedly, it's actually more accurate than the basic Springfield "loaded" series but I have yet to test this for myself. I have owned CZ 75’s in the past and consider them to be among the worlds finest semi autos..Anyone else own one?

I've got a CZ 75 Compact. I'm not nearly as knowledgable on firearms as many of you all, but I've shot quite a few handguns & this one was my favorite. In fact, I'm thinking of getting the same identical gun for keeping in my study. Boring, I know, but I really like this gun. I've never tried one of the CZ 45s, though. Is there a big difference in the feel between the two?

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

CZ is the best SA/DA design. Some people have to carry a SA/DA setup like cops. If you have to have DA first squeeze, and dont want to with a DAO or similar setup like Glock, which is really better because its the same pull each time, then CZ is the way to go.

although I like Sig too.