Savate or other Euro style combat Martial Arts?

[Subrosa]

I have been training in European style Muay Thai kickboxing but recently have been looking into Savate, which originated in France. I became interested in Savate because it makes use of weapons and knives in addition to kickboxing.

Anyone have experience with Savate, or know of any other Euro style combat martial arts?

[Orthodox Crusader]

Here's one used by the Russian special forces, it's hundreds of years old and it's called Sistema:

http://www.russianmartialart.com/

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

russian- sambo.

they call greco roman wrestling thing "pankration."

boxing?

another name for savate is "le boxe francaise."

US-- shootfighting, pitfighting, UFC stuff.

But I say, dont worry about the origin or name of the discipline. Best thing is get a good teacher. Plenty of Asians are bad as hell, anyone who can should study with them. SUch as: Akira Tohei in Chicago - aikido. Or, Sekichen Iha in Lansing (shorin ryu.)

[V.O.D]

The best pure sports for self defense have been proved in the fighting rings of the Ultimate Fighting Champioship and Pride Fighting Championship (Located in japan) and those are:

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (Mainly a ground fighting martial arts that teaches that technique prevails over all power, if you watch the ealry "UFC" you can see that "Royce Gracie" a young fighter from brazil take his famillys style of BJJ (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) and beat men who he was outweighed by 100 pounds sometimes and beat them with allmost no effort. Brazilian jiu jitsu mainly works with being on your back and being able to defend against someone bigger and stronger then you. This sport is GREAT for women for self defence because most of the time a woman needs to protect themselfs is from someone attempting rape and when that happens they are usually on their back. Most of the effective techniques in BJJ are used when on your back like arm bars (breaking of the arm), chokes and other locks that if applied right could break the arm of the biggest strongest body builder in the world.

Muay Thai Kickboxing - Sure because its a thai art most narrow minded whites would say fuck that its a mud thing but Muay Thai teaches you to punch, kick, elbow and knee with great speed, power and accuracy. If you have a gym in your area and want to get better with hand to hand combat, swallow your pride and train because its one of the best stand up fighting arts in the world.

Boxing - Along with muay thai adding Boxing to your fighting arsenal is a MUST because in muay thai it teaches punching but not that much because when you are in punching range you cant really use your kicks which are probably the muay thai kickboxers greatest weapon.

Freestyle wrestling - Next to BJJ this is one of THE best for street fighting/self defense, it gives you great speed, stamina, grip and ground controll. I myself have been a freestyle wrester since I was about 5 years old and I am now 18 and with it I seriously have not ever once lost a fight, in the street you just shoot for the double leg, when they are on the ground you just elbow till they are knocked out and its over. Id highly recomend freestyle wreslting to ANYONE looking to get stronger and become a better fighter or for self defence (Works great on a pure boxer allso becuase you can punch when your on your back ;) )



I myself have trained in all these sports but wrestling in my main. Ive trained with a white kru (Muay thai trainer) for 3 years, a friend whos dad was a golden gloves boxer in the canadian army for 5 years and 3 years training in brazilian jiu jitsu and when you combine them all you are pretty much a fucking juggernaut when someone attacks you.

For the ladies I would say train in BJJ because its probably THE BEST art when it comes to rape and or self defence from anyone.

[V.O.D]

they call greco roman wrestling thing "pankration."

No greco roman wrestling is just greco roman wrestling and that wrestling without being able to grab the legs and or any part bellow the waist. Pankration is a mixture of greco roman wrestling and freestyle grappling with strikes.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Everything that this kid said about fighting is true. I'm a black belt in SAMBO, blue belt in BJJ, Muay Thai certified and I've done Freestyle & Greco-Roman wrestling as well as USA Boxing.

If BJJ has a weakness, it's that most of its practicioners aren't proficient at takedowns. If you've segwayed into BJJ from wrestling, then you're pretty much unstoppable, as the kid says.

Also, most grapplers tend not to be great strikers. You gravitated towards that for a reason, then you stuck with what worked. Most strikers tend to be out of their element on the ground, also. Try for equal stand, equal ground approach.

If you watch NHB, you'll quickly discover that 95% of the time, the takedowns used are single leg, double leg, and bear hug twist/turk. The latter is an example of Greco Roman.

He's also right about elbowing once your opponent is down. Most people don't know how to punch barehanded without breaking their knuckles, stand-up or on the ground.

Don't underestimate the value of a Greco-Roman throw (grip and hip!) to end a fight REAL QUICK! Of course, you have to know what the fuck you're doing. You don't want to suplex or reverse body lock someone on pavement unless it's life or death.

Real BJJ instruction is very expensive. You can pay your dues in a boxing gym (by which I mean get your ass kicked sparing) and pick up a lot, not to mention a concussion or two, broken nose, etc., for next to nothing. Muay Thai is also pretty expensive to learn.

I'll tell you straight up the best SAMBO players are Russian (just like the best BJJ stylists are Brazilian). SAMBO is arm bars & leg locks; BJJ is chokes & arm bars. SAMBO is absolutely the best art for leg locks.

Ultimately, SAMBO & BJJ are practically indistinguishable at their highest level. There are some good SAMBO players in the US military, the USMC has a good team. If you don't know any Russians, Bulgarians, etc., hooking up with some military guys would be your best bet.

Great comments.

A person intent on improving doesnt waste tons of time "perfecting" what they're already good at, they work on what they're not. A person intent on improving looks forward to experiences which expose their unknown weaknesses. A fool only wants to pretend.

That applies for lots more than martial arts, obviously.

My 2 year old showed me a weakness is all grappling that had escaped me for a long time. BITING. Of course, that's illegal even in UFC or BJJ type competition. For obvious reasons. But in the same way that rules create distortion in other styles of competition, it creates it in BJJ. Real life, nobody lays on the ground like that because you could usually just bite the fucking hell out of the other guy. Oh, and getting bit on the neck can be very hazardous to your health, in a very fast way.

Another problem with grappling is this: multiple opponents. WHile you're wrestling opponent one, opponent 2 will use his boot to squash your head like melon.

So, based on all of that, I consider aikido to represent the golden mean of "real world" martial arts training. It's essentially grappling, but you stay on your feet, moving. It doesnt "incorporate" defense against weapons, it is based on defense against weapons. IE, incorporated seamlessly into all practice is the notion that the aggressor attacks with a weapon. Also, multiple opponents is a fundamental part of practice from the beginning. Finally, the techniques are executed quickly without the sort of lingering that one comes to expect from sparring in the wrestling-judo-BJJ world.

For the person who has developed proficiency in both atemi- ie percussive strikes, and grappling, aikido is capstone study. Once you've been there, other things you've learned all fit in far better than they did before.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Of course the best thing to do is not sit on your ass pecking the keyboard, or waste too much time reading about martial arts, but rather get out, find a competent local teacher, and start training ASAP.

Better to start with a solid local karate teacher, and work at it, then to never start at all because there's no local teachers of whatever you think the optimal style is. Outside of a big cities or large universities, for example, it's almost impossible to find anyone who teaches aikido.

Finally, people should keep in mind from the beginning, that martial arts practice is a lifelong committment. You dont learn it and quit. You may take a break, but it's a way of life. Budo.

One of the most useful things you can learn from the martial arts is to focus on the hear and now. You dont let your mind wander on fantasies of enjoying the future objective, you just zero in on perfecting the technique you're working on today or executing the task at hand.

This teaches both concentration, or "kime," and also an attitude of peaceful sustained action towards your goals whatever they may be.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Of course the best thing to do is not sit on your ass pecking the keyboard, or waste too much time reading about martial arts, but rather get out, find a competent local teacher, and start training ASAP.

Better to start with a solid local karate teacher, and work at it, then to never start at all because there's no local teachers of whatever you think the optimal style is. Outside of a big cities or large universities, for example, it's almost impossible to find anyone who teaches aikido.

Finally, people should keep in mind from the beginning, that martial arts practice is a lifelong committment. You dont learn it and quit. You may take a break, but it's a way of life. Budo.

One of the most useful things you can learn from the martial arts is to focus on the hear and now. You dont let your mind wander on fantasies of enjoying the future objective, you just zero in on perfecting the technique you're working on today or executing the task at hand.

This teaches both concentration, or "kime," and also an attitude of peaceful sustained action towards your goals whatever they may be.

In case anybody cares, this is the attitude I am trying to advocate at the politics section. We dont just sit around fantasizing about the day of the rope, we dont wait around for the perfect organization to magically come into existence, we just get out there and participate in a meaningful and committed fashion today.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

yes well your comments remind me of the time in high school when this nig named eddie took me down, got what you guys call "the mount" on me, and I tried from the supine position to reach up and tried to double thumb gouge his eyes out-- he squinted, shook his head till my hands slipped off, and then proceeded to whack my skull on the floor until our football coach yanked him off of me. I was a bit groggy and had a headache the next day! so those points are well taken.

about aikido however, you under-rate it. aikido is derived from jiu jitsu. I dont know how you could spar aikido. I know they allegedly do it in tomiki ruyu aikido but I've not witnessed it. obviously you're well acquainted with jiu jitsu so the problem

My proposition is what is it best for people to study in general, not the more narrow question of what practice will best allow one to vanquish a seasoned martial artist. BJJ would appear to be the clear choice for that. I'm concerned more with life and I again say aikido combines both the virtues of grappling with an emphasis on not going down to the mat, which I still believe is a really bad idea in life. Most "fighting" occurs in a social context, and you dont want to be rolling around on the ground, you want to do what you're going to do and get the fuck out of there as you say.

Now dont get me going on my current practice. We call it IDPA for short.... that's a martial art that definitely is geared towards multiple attackers...

[MadScienceType]

Great thread.

Spent three years in BJJ and all the comments are true to my experience. Definitely the best one-on-one form of defense, but Doppel's comments are spot on when the odds are not even. Get the hell out of there. I found that the biting thing was overrated as well. The jaw dislocation is an excellent counter. Biting an arm only works when the bitee doesn't know what to do and instinctively pulls the arm away instead of pushes and loses a chunk of meat as a reward. The eye gouging thing only happened to me once, when I was sparring a newbie that I was going slow with. The SOB freaked out and starting going for the eyes! Needless to say, "slow" went out the window after that. I did sport a nice, red eyball for a few days afterwards, though.

I did find takedowns to be the most difficult for me as well. I think I need to get some more judo or wrestling training to help in this area.

Also did work with escrima sticks. That is a great art for developing reflexes, but on the street it's not very practical unless you carry your sticks with you at all times and you may run into legal hassle even then. I had a cop give me grief because I was carrying them (cased) only a block to class and he wanted to cite me for carrying a concealed, dangerous weapon. I did manage to convince him I wasn't about to freak out, but still. Of course, you could always find handy objects that double as escrima sticks, I guess.

Standup is mostly a "whatever works" approach from JKD. I like the fluidity of movement and the emphasis on economy of motion as well. Sticks helped in this area too.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

re takedowns, modern judo is all about two: tai otoshi and ippon serenage. the first is called body drop sometimes and it's when you grab the guy's shirt, and turn around and yank him down over your extended leg. the second is a shoulder throw. these two dominate competition judo as they are fast and powerful and worth a full point and leave you in a great position to finish. plus if somebody does the shoulder throw on you, jesus h christ it will fuck you up bad coming down. you can really crank the shit out of somebody's joints and then dump em on their headz with this.

I couldnt speak to these in life because I always prefered to keep my distance. if I've done takedowns it's only been leg sweeps and trips of one variety or another or going down from a standing jointlock or come along. usually in a situation where social context dictated restraint. that's another reason grappling is key-- you have greater control over the negative consequences and thus are more likely not to unintentionally inflict grave harm. that friends is a big factor in real life-- staying out of jail.

btw, I once went to a grappling seminar with one old hawaiian nisei named Wally Jay, a jujitsu man, and a Pino named Remy Presas. Jay demonstrated some fantastic joint locks and come alongs, and Presas showed how siniwali escrima exercises could be used to supplement grappling training. Wally Jay's probably dead but Presas is probably still around. This was like maybe ten years ago before BJJ really caught on here.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

That story about Russian judo sounds great. I learned my judo from nigs, oddly enough. Judo from nigs, aikido from japs, shorin ryu from an italian and a scotirish, and tae kwon do from midwestern WASPS. I have to say I enjoyed and spent the longest time with the wasps.

They followed the exoteric/ esoteric distinction inherent in all good traditions. They taught "tkd" but were acutely aware of its limitations, and worked on grappling in private groups outside of normal class. Hell, grappling, even shooting. They were syncretic but only privately. Outwardly, tkd formed the shell and the shared experience and terminology. Esoterically, informal private groups explored the fuller "Truth" and worked on integrating it and extracting it from the tkd "tradition" of forms that werent much different from the shorin-ryu forms-- in some cases identical, viz one "Koryo" or "Naihanchi shodan." Anyhow, after many different seminars, study of BJJ as much as one could do over ten years ago, and much study with Geo Dillman, one of my big brother instructors in our esoteric family deciphered many takedowns and grappling inherent in the "traditional" tkd forms usually presumed to only teach atemi or percussive strikes. THAT was very enlightening and I later caught on to aikido very quickly, as I "knew" many techniques including iriminage from years of forms practice-- never knowing what I physically knew. That is why, you dont start with a syncretic style, you start with a more "orthodox" one and then learn from syncretism later on.

btw, Doppel, I read this book "red mafiya" and the author says Brighton Beach is Russian-Jew mafiya central. I've never been to New Jersey. Care to expand upon that in a diff thread?

[Lord Flashheart]

Maurice Smith is a former UFC champion, world class striker, world class trainer, thirty years experience in martial arts. Despite the fact that he's a nigger he knows what the fuck he's talking about.
I hear he throws a pretty mean "donkey punch"! :eek:

[Xuxalina Rihhia]

Wots a donkey punch?

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