.45 versus .9mm

[SMG3000]

I own a single firearm, a .38 special revolver with five chambers. I bought it new and have outfitted it with various ammo. A few 158 grain with a couple pre-fragmented "MagSafe" and some plus-p hollow points.
Basically I considered concealability and price.

I plan on getting a second pistol at some point, either before or after I get a decent shotgun or rifle.

The guy at a local gun range seemed to know the ins and outs of guns and ammo and he stated that a 9mm can serve as well as a .45 for the simple fact that today's ammo evens out the performance issue.
Considering that most 9mm handguns are less pricey than .45 calibers, I was very interested in this claim. Frankly price IS a big issue with me. I was actually looking at this .45: http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=145SS&category=Pistol
which seems like a good deal.
Also how about this 9mm http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=111SS&category=Pistol
Again, price is a big consideration. If I use those expensive MagSafe pre-fragmented ammo in the 9mm, that should be a pretty damn powerful weapon. According to the MagSafe company, the .38 pre-fragmented travel at 1,800 feet per second, with a 469 ft-lbs impact force. It claims to have a deadlier wound channel than any .40 cal JHP ammo you can buy. The larger caliber rounds are respectively more powerful.
I just can't throw money around.

Another consideration is that I do not have a distance weapon. At the local gun shop I can get a used AK-47 for about 525. These are the ones that can handle magazines of 30 rounds or more. The ones limited to 10-shot magazines are about 80 dollars less.
On the other hand, perhaps I'd be more in need of a shotgun.
What am I mostly likely to need- a backup handgun or an AK-47? Maybe a shotgun?
Perhaps someone would like to wire me a couple thousand dollars...

[tacitus]

9mm handguns are superior in my opinion. There are two reasons for this. Larger magazine capacity, and velocity. In simple terms the 9mm is much faster than the .45. Remember, speed kills. One hears alot of stuff about "knock down" power. This is only important if you are using a single shot gun. You have 9 more or 14 more (in a pre ban magazine) to fire at the threat. For home defense however, nothing and I mean nothing beats a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. Some people like rifles and pistols but the rounds from these can penetrate walls and possibly kill innocent by-standers. Your best bet is the shotgun. preferably, 12 gauge, with a short barrel. Check out www.maverickarms.com they are a subsidiary of Mossberg. The model 88(if you can believe it.) sells for about 200 hundred bucks. You won't find a better street howitzer for the money.

[Franco]

Being an amateur gunsmith, I can address this issue pretty well.

If you can afford a .45, get it. One shot from a .45 equals two from a 9mm. Use round hollow-points, NOT flat ones. Copper-jacketed only.

As far as a long gun, get a Mini-14 or a Mini-30 in stainless steel. Yeah, I know that you cannot get many parts for a Mini. You don't need to. They are built like tanks. Who cares?

Shotguns have no range. Forget them.

As for brands, modern Taurus are actually pretty good for people on a budget. If you can afford it, though, get a Colt 1991A1. And change the plastic mainspring housing/trigger.

[no_nomen]

SMG3000 Sir,

Your .38 w/ magsafe is not bad at all.

When you can afford it I do think a .40 or .45 would be
a very good idea. Whatever you shoot best! 9mm is the
minimum!

My own choice would be a .40 or .45.
And 100% reliability right out of the box is manditory!
There are other factors to consider also.

Personal obersavitions:

The only pistols that I know of will always work 100%
right out of the box are Glock, Sig, Baretta, HK and very
expensive customized 1911s Some say Glocks are ugly -
- read below and see what you think.

Check out the 27 (.40), 36 and 30 (both .45)...
tiny, light, 1/2 the moving parts of other makes,
never 'burps', functions even when full of dirt
and can be taken Completely Apart with nothing
more than a strong Toothpick ! .

Extra mags- you can get for as little as $13-16.
Save up and buy at least 5, prefreably 10 extra mags!!!

Hi Capticy mags are more expensive but just the standard
mags - 9+1 or 10+1 of .40 or .45 are mighty comforting!!

And don't mind buying a used Glock. Glock will fix,
rebuild, replace little or no cost! Or you can do it
yourself with a toothpick hahaha!
Try that on a 1911 HaHaHa!

($325-50 used, $500+/- new)

Oh yes, and they will not rust!

Not a SA trigger like 1911's but if you can make little
ol' coke cans dance at 25-30 yards what more do you need?

Designed and built by an Austrian!
Probly a distant cus of Uncle Wolf !

If you would like to avail yourself of it there is much Glock info on-line.

Glock Talk forum members would be most helpful with any and all
questions you might have. (They LIVE for their Glocks haha).
I would avoid any reference to 'politicks' and just stick to Glocks. HA!

http://www.glocktalk.com

http://glocktalk.com/images/GTLogo1.gif

TONS of Good technical info here (and many other sites on web also).

GLOCK INFORMATION SPECIFICATIONS AND STUFF
http://glockmeister.com/glockinf.shtml

AKs are similiar in that they are very simple and reliable and rugged!!
30 rnd mags are a blast to empty!

Shotguns are excellent home and crowd "tamers"

Have fun!.

[no_nomen]

SMG Sir,

I was working on another project and kept thinking about your desire for economy. The Kel Tec pistols are remarkable value (very inexpensive) and their quality is now very good. You might even consider both the KTs below as they both have their 'place' and a back up is a very good idea!

Early (2x+ yrs ago) in their production run there were some problems but Kel Tec will quickly fix or replace any problem. They are renounded for that. You can find great deals on used KTs and the factory will check them out and fix good as new no charge usually!

Probably the ultimate concealed pistol out there IMHO. Very tiny and extremely light weight. Long trigger pull - add a Trigger Shoe an you are 'good to go'. A little practice and the long pull becomes no problem at all. btw: the "belt Clip" accessory is fantastick!

Night Sights are a must for any pistol. anywhere from $65-80 will get you a good set of PTs or NMCs or etc.

Magsafe is very good but if you really want some 'devistating' stuff Check out RBCD!!! Even the tiny .32 becomes extremely 'effective' with RBCD.
Order directly from RBCD as itz hard to find.
see:
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/c9mmcoldnhotB.htm
and
www.rbcd.net\index.html
see Penetration and Expansion Chart (itz no joke I assure you!)
http://www.rbcd.net/Personal%20Defense%20Ammo.htm

www.kel-tec.com
Even a toll free # if you have a problem or question. 1 (800) 515-9983.

P 11 Pistol sorry for the ugly green frame- they do come in black too... hahaha

http://www.kel-tec.com/prod011.jpg
The P-11 is a semi-automatic, locked breech pistol, chambered for the 9 mm Luger cartridge.


Technical Specifications
Calibers: 9 x 19 mm Luger
Weight unloaded lbs. 14 oz. 400g
Loaded magazine 6oz. 159g
Length 5.6" 142mm
Height 4.3" 109mm
Width 1" 26mm
Barrel Length 3.1" 79mm
Sight radius 4.6" 116mm
Muzzle energy max 400 ftlbs 540J
Capacity 10+1

P 32 Pistol

http://www.kel-tec.com/prod024.jpg

The P-32 is a semi-automatic, locked breech pistol, chambered for the .32 Auto cartridge.

Technical Specifications
Calibers: .32 AUTO
Weight unloaded. 6.6 oz. 186g
Loaded magazine 2.8 oz. 81g
Length 5.1" 129mm
Height 3.5" 89mm
Width .75" 19mm
Barrel Length 2.7" 68mm
Sight radius 3.8" 96mm
Muzzle energy max 200ftlbs 240J
Capacity 7+1 rounds

Some sources of great info on KT:
Many very simple things you can do to make KTs even better if you are the least bit handy with tools!!!!
KTOG.Org - Kel-Tec Owners Group

This web page originally started out as a space for Kel-Tec P-11 9mm owners. Since its inception, KTOG has grown to encompass Kel-Tec CNC products in general. ...
http://www.ktog.org

Really Great KT info here:
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/

[SMG3000]

9mm handguns are superior in my opinion. There are two reasons for this. Larger magazine capacity, and velocity. In simple terms the 9mm is much faster than the .45. Remember, speed kills. One hears alot of stuff about "knock down" power. This is only important if you are using a single shot gun. You have 9 more or 14 more (in a pre ban magazine) to fire at the threat. For home defense however, nothing and I mean nothing beats a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. Some people like rifles and pistols but the rounds from these can penetrate walls and possibly kill innocent by-standers. Your best bet is the shotgun. preferably, 12 gauge, with a short barrel. Check out www.maverickarms.com they are a subsidiary of Mossberg. The model 88(if you can believe it.) sells for about 200 hundred bucks. You won't find a better street howitzer for the money.

Very interesting! I would certainly choose a shotgun from that company, provided I can locate a dealer that stocks them (I'm sure there are some around me).

[SMG3000]

Being an amateur gunsmith, I can address this issue pretty well.

If you can afford a .45, get it. One shot from a .45 equals two from a 9mm. Use round hollow-points, NOT flat ones. Copper-jacketed only.

As far as a long gun, get a Mini-14 or a Mini-30 in stainless steel. Yeah, I know that you cannot get many parts for a Mini. You don't need to. They are built like tanks. Who cares?

Shotguns have no range. Forget them.

As for brands, modern Taurus are actually pretty good for people on a budget. If you can afford it, though, get a Colt 1991A1. And change the plastic mainspring housing/trigger.

Hmmm. Are Mini-14s or Mini-30s relatively cheap? And availibility may be an issue.
I was looking at this for an AK: http://www.keepshooting.com/ak47.htm Does anyone have thoughts on this distributor? I don't want to buy something thats going to bust apart in combat. I would like to pay less than 400 dollars for a quality distance weapon too!

[SMG3000]

Thank you for the info no_nomen!

At the shop I go to, they allow you to rent "the whole shelf" for thirty dollars a day, meaning I can try out all the handguns if I wanted to. Then I'll be able to get a feel for my strong-suit.

I think I might get a used Glock if its in good condition!

[no_nomen]

Hmmm. : http://www.keepshooting.com/ak47.htm
Does anyone have thoughts on this distributor? !

I don't know but I would be a bit wary of them because
their price on 1000 rnds of AK ammo is $130. Locally here
itz $80 and even less at gun shows.

Ammo, 7.62x39, HP, 1000rds, Russian Mfg, Wolf®
Code: AM762103
Price: $79.97
.

[no_nomen]

Thank you for the info no_nomen!

At the shop I go to, they allow you to rent "the whole shelf" for thirty dollars a
day, meaning I can try out all the handguns if I wanted to. Then I'll be able to
get a feel for my strong-suit] I think I might get a used Glock if its in good
condition.

Go for it! Burn up everything you can get your hands on. Wait [if you can
stand it] for a 27 or 30. you will see one sooner or later. But in meantime try
out every pistol you can. Love those pretty pistols but Glock are best out there by far.

Visit GlockTalk and ask ??? they love ''newbees'' & will help you a bunch!

[MadScienceType]

Howdy SMG3K,

I'm not a gun guru or nothing, but here's my 2 cents.

Your .38 is pretty adequate, provided you keep it loaded with the MagSafes. I would ditch the mixed rounds in the cylinder, since if you've gotta end up shooting someone, you're not gonna be thinking about what cylinder is loaded with what.

If you want another handgun and keep the .38 as backup, you can't go wrong with a 1911 clone in .45 cal. Bear in mind Franco's point about the "round" hollowpoints, meaning the shape of the bullet when viewed from the side, as the 1911 was never designed to feed the weird bullet shapes available on the market today. The Federal 230-grain Hydrashok performs pretty well in this role (they have a 165-grainer, but why get a .45 if you're gonna use a light bullet?) Anyway, be sure to "break in" the gun with a couple of boxes of ammo before you carry it, as some guns need to smooth out the machined surfaces to function reliably. There are several makers of 1911 knock-offs that won't break the bank as well as more expensive ones. I'll leave you to research them, since I don't have any firsthand knowledge of their pros and cons. The big disadvantage of the .45 if you're on a budget is the cost of the ammo, usually about twice that of 9mm ammo, which is pretty plentiful on the market now. Bear that in mind. I turned to reloading as a way to save ammo costs, but that too costs money to get going. However, there's some fairly inexpensive reloading setups as well. Something to think about for the future, anyway.

I don't like Glocks, but that is merely a personal preference, as they are well-made guns, both accurate and highly reliable. I just don't like the way it fits in my hand or the strange trigger, but you might find it suits you well. As no_nomen suggested, get to the range and rent as many guns as you like and see which one feels right to you.

As for a long gun, you really can't go wrong with an AK if you're on a budget. Yeah, a lot of them are ugly as hell and they aren't as accurate as some other rifles, but they're highly reliable, cheap and both mags and ammo are cheap as well. Five and a quarter is a bit pricey for an AK. Sometimes, you can find them for around $300 or so, but the FFL you get it from will add a markup, so expect about $350 when it's all said and done. Another nice thing is that there are plenty of accessories for the AK out there, and you can improve yours as you get the money. Oh, used AK 30-round mags are fine, since they're built like a brick shithouse. You can pick 'em up for around $7-8 or so at gunshows.

A shotgun is also a good investment for dispatching two-legged parasites invading your house. The brands named are good choices, as is the Winchester line, which is almost as cheap (a no-frills 1300 Defender will often be found for around $225 or so). The Remington 870 is also a good choice, but a little more expensive, though there are a lot of nifty gizmos for it on the market because it is so common. I would also suggest that unless you live alone, to keep the thing loaded with birdshot (#6 or #7) for in-home use, since buckshot will sail thru interior sheetrock walls and possibly hit someone you don't want to. The birdshot is perfectly adequate at indoor ranges, (have y'all seen a #7 shot pattern at ten feet?) will make literal hamburger out of anyone and won't penetrate walls. Just aim high center-chest and you'll put them down, even if they're high on something. Trauma-room RN I know says that the docs usually just call time on those poor saps right away (ever think about trying to resolve 80 separate wound tracks and remove all those embedded pellets? No thanks.)

Lastly, you might consider a .22 rimfire rifle, not for defense, but for practice, since the .22 teaches valuable skills at a fraction of the cost (less than $10 for 500+ rounds of .22LR) and the fact that it's a lot quieter than an AK might let you practice outside if you can find a secluded spot without attracting attention and having to pay range fees every time you want to shoot (depending on where you live of course). There are plenty of .22 rifles on the market and the Ruger 10/22 is a good buy at around $150 or so. Other makes are far cheaper, but the quality is more varied of course.

Lastly, as a bargain hunter, start checking the classifieds for guns that interest you. It's especially common this time of year to see guns for sale, since some improvident people need the cash for buying holiday gifts so their wife will give 'em a blowjob they wouldn't otherwise get. So, take advantage of their financial incaution and keep a gun in White hands! Also, you get a gun without a paper trail as an added bonus. You need to be careful you aren't getting a gun that's been worn out or abused of course, but for .22s, classifieds are a good route to go, since it's hard to wear out a .22 barrel from shooting.

Best,

MST

P.S. You might want to go grab a copy of Shotgun News to see what is out there and what retail prices are, as well as looking for deals on ammo and such. I think WallyMart might even carry it, if you can stand going to one of those multicultural shopping disasters.

[no_nomen]

Howdy SMG3K,
If you want another handgun and keep the .38 as backup, MST
P.S. You might want to go grab a copy of Shotgun News
to see what is out there and what retail prices are, as well as
looking for deals on ammo and such. I think WallyMart might
even carry it, if you can stand going to one of those
multicultural shopping disasters.

SIEGE ! MST,

Good advice Sir! All of the above. I'm not a 'gun guru' either Sir.
Just an 'old man' who has 'been there - done that'. Cost me a
lot of $$$ and had a lot of fun hahaha! Love 'em all!

One reason I recomend Glock (esply for Folks just getting started)
over 1911s is Glock's 100% reliability right out of the box. Glocks \
never seem to have a problem feeding even the widest mouthed
hollow point or any type of ammo- they eat everything haha. There's
nothing worse than hearing a 'click' instead of a 'bang' when you
really need a ''bang''! I "like" lot of others but my bottom
line is function. 100% reliability is manditory!

If you have time to spend w/ local gun clubs & internet forums much
free info'/learning can be obtained and good deals may be found.
Better to wait and watch for a private sale for sure!

And as stated above:

Check out the 27 (.40), 36 and 30 (both .45)...
tiny, light, 1/2 the moving parts of other makes,
never 'burps', functions even when full of dirt
and can be taken Completely Apart with nothing
more than a strong Toothpick ! .

Extra mags- you can get for as little as $13-16.
Save up and buy at least 5, prefreably 10 extra mags!!!

Hi Capticy mags are more expensive but just the standard
mags - 9+1 or 10+1 of .40 or .45 are mighty comforting!!

And don't mind buying a used Glock. Glock will fix,
rebuild, replace little or no cost! Or you can do it
yourself with a toothpick hahaha!
Try that on a 1911 HaHaHa!

[Blondie]

I love my Rem 870 youth model .20, and I love my revolvers. If I could afford a long gun right now, I would go for an AR shortie! What a great little gun, no kick and really accurate. Love them!

Forget about semi's for a beginner. The good ole double action revolver, point and shoot is a no-brainer gun, especially if you're a blonde AND a woman! You can't make a mistake! (But if someone made me have a semi, I would take a Beretta 92!)

;)

[no_nomen]

I love my Rem 870 youth model .20, and I love my revolvers.
If I could afford a long gun right now, I would go for an AR shortie!
What a great little gun, no kick and really accurate. Love them!

Forget about semi's for a beginner. The good ole double action
revolver, point and shoot is a no-brainer gun, especially if you're
a blonde AND a woman! You can't make a mistake! (But if someone
made me have a semi, I would take a Beretta 92!) ;)

Blondie,

Right you are about the 870! And the AK shorty - wonderful!
And revolvers serve their purpose very well! Beretta 92!
What a blast for a range pistol! Love 'em! And HiPowers also!
But damn 92s are big! :>)

.

[SMG3000]

I don't know but I would be a bit wary of them because
their price on 1000 rnds of AK ammo is $130. Locally here
itz $80 and even less at gun shows.

Ammo, 7.62x39, HP, 1000rds, Russian Mfg, Wolf®
Code: AM762103
Price: $79.97
.

Thank you for warning me. I guess if I go to a gunshow I'd see things for much cheaper than at commercial shops, but I only worry I'll end up with a dud, either cruddy ammo (since I don't know much about ammo) or a faulty rifle.

I do think I will get an AK before I purchase another handgun. I think I'd hate to be caught in a civil war without one.

[SMG3000]

Thanks all for the other advice too, I will retain enough to really help me out when it comes time to purchase!

I will remember to use birdshot indoors when I get a shotgun, and I'm glad my .38 is not considered silly :D

The reason I alternate ammo is because I figure if one wont do it, another will. Someone at the range also suggested this tactic. The full-metal jackets should penetrate thick clothing, the MagSafes are to hopefully put them out of my misery (so he cant sue or retaliate in person) and the hollowpoints are to knock them down before they can reach me with a knife, assuming they aren't shooting at me instead.
I feel more comfortable that way, but...

[no_nomen]

I guess if I go to a gunshow I'd see things for much cheaper
than at commercial shops, but I only worry I'll end up with a dud, either cruddy
ammo (since I don't know much about ammo) or a faulty rifle.

I do think I will get an AK before I purchase another handgun. I think I'd hate to be caught in a civil war without one.
SMG,

You can lear alot about what other Folks have had bad and good experiences
w/ at glock talk and other forums. btw: AKs love cheap Wolf ammo... Glocks do
also eat 'em like candy!

.

[Franco]

The Mini-14 goes for around $500 in Arizona. I would get a stainless "Ranch" version if possible, which has scope mounts and a tip-up site.

[Steve B]

Some great gun info here. I'm also a Glock fan. Unlike Madscience Type I find the Glock fits well in my hand and has a nice feel and balance to it. The 45 cal Glock 21 beats all handguns in my opinion and the thing is damn near indestructable.I prefer the 45 to 9mm becase as the old saying goes the 9 just doesn't have the knock down power of the 45. I have friends in law inforcement who tell me this all the time and they know from first hand experience.

I tried out the 45 cal model 1911 for comparison to the Glock 21 but the 1911 seemed a little heavy and the rate of fire was slower than the Glock. Or maybe it was just my imagination, I donno.

Speaking of shotguns, the Remington model 870 Marine Magnum is a gun that to me just looks good and is deadly! Nickel plated, corosion resistant, 18 inch barrell. Just an outstanding riot gun for close quarter combat. You point one of these bad nasties at a perp and he'll probably die of a heart attack before you can cut him in half.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/shotguns/870mrmag.htm

[no_nomen]

Some great gun info here. I'm also a Glock fan.
Unlike Madscience Type I find the Glock fits well in my hand and
has a nice feel and balance to it. The 45 cal Glock 21 beats all
handguns in my opinion and the thing is damn near indestructable.
I prefer the 45 to 9mm becase as the old saying goes the 9 just
doesn't have the knock down power of the 45. I have friends in
law inforcement who tell me this all the time and they know from
first hand experience.

870 Marine Magnum ...You point one of these bad nasties at a perp
and he'll probably die of a heart attack before you can cut him in half.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/shotguns/870mrmag.htm
Steve B Sir,

Love the 21 ! but itz a bit large for me. Have you 'tried out' the 30 and 36?
The 36 is a real blast though I am more comforted by the hi-cap of the 30.

The 870MM? A real tear-or!

Hey I love 'em all! KeepOnaFirinTillTheyQuitaFloppin'

.

[Blondie]

I limpwrist/jam Glocks all the time, they just don't fit my hand at all. But Berreta 92.......oh it's nice. I'm real accurate with that one and they never seem to jam on me.

I downsized from my carry SP101 .357 to a little tiny Smith airweight in .38. I figure if it's light and easy to carry, I'm gonna carry it more often. I love it and wear it with an inside-the-pants holster that just clips on inside my waist band. It's pretty concealable and a nice size and weight for all the time use, for a woman. I only had to pull it once when some lunatic was beating on my door in the middle of the night. He looked in the window at me and saw it, and he ran like hell. I called the cops on the guy and they said I did the right thing to pull out the gun, call the cops and sit tight. :)

[no_nomen]

I limpwrist/jam Glocks all the time, they just don't fit my hand at all.
But Berreta 92.......oh it's nice. I downsized from my carry SP101
.357 to a little tiny Smith airweight in .38. I figure if it's light and
easy to carry, I'm gonna carry it more often.
Hi there Blondie!

That all makes very good sence for you. The pistol you carry with you ALL the time always beats out the one you left at home.

I never had a Glock failure to fire ... I must not be limp-wristing them right... :confused:

That Airweight is a real jewel! Carry that 92 often? ;'>)))

.

[Franco]

The best [modern] shotgun ever made is an Ithaca pump. Get a used police model, and you are set. You can get a police trade-in, not worn-out at all, for about $200 in Shotgun News, or at a gun show. Look around.

Take a dental mirror and a small flashlight/borelight combo with you when you buy one, to check for rust, and you are all set. You should do that always when buying a used gun.

[Blondie]

Of course you can't wimpwrist right, you're not a woman!

Naaaa, I don't carry a B. 92, it would be way too big. I only shoot friends ones when I get a chance. It's always a big treat to shoot all different kinds of guns.I have to admit the Desert Eagle in .44 (I think it was), was a pretty BIG GUN, but even that was good experience. You can never get enough practice, and it's always good to know how to shoot any kind of firearm, even for a woman.

[Steve B]

The best [modern] shotgun ever made is an Ithaca pump. Get a used police model, and you are set. You can get a police trade-in, not worn-out at all, for about $200 in Shotgun News, or at a gun show. Look around.

Take a dental mirror and a small flashlight/borelight combo with you when you buy one, to check for rust, and you are all set. You should do that always when buying a used gun.

Hey Franco, don't think iv'e ever heard of the Ithaca pump shotgun. Can you elaborate on what makes it the best?

Blondie, Glocks jamming??? Thats the first I have ever heard of that! I fired 1000's of rounds with my Glock with nary a problem...friends also. A buddy of mine with some shekels to spare beat the hell out of his Glock. Fired some 5000 rounds thru it, never cleaned it, beat on it, drove his jeep over it and it still fired like it was new. He even read on some Glock site that it would fire under water. He tried it and lo and behold, it does! I probably sound like some Glock salesman but i'm not. Glocks the best gun made...a little pricey but well worth the money. You just can't beat German engineering!

[no_nomen]

Of course you can't wimpwrist right, you're not a woman!
You can never get enough practice, and it's always good
to know how to shoot any kind of firearm, even for a woman.
A.H.! Blondie,

You would be supprised how many males I have seen linp-wristing!
Maybe you wouldn't. ;>)) You can never get enough practice.

Recoil ? What's that ?... :confused:
I can't wait to try out s&w .500 magnum you see in the below attachment.

[no_nomen]

Fired some 5000 rounds thru it, never cleaned it, beat on it,
drove his jeep over it and it still fired like it was new. He even
read on some Glock site that it would fire under water. He tried
it and lo and behold, it does! Glocks the best gun made...a little
pricey but well worth the money.
You just can't beat German engineering!

Welcome to the "DarkSide"!
Yep! Made to function under the worst contidions!
I believe installation of "marine Cups" are recomended
before underwater firing. Spec Opps application.

Austrian I do think. Hey wasn't Uncle Wolf Austrian? ... ;)

.

[Steve B]

Geeze No_Nomen...what ya gonna do with that? Kill humpback whales?

LOL!

[no_nomen]

Geeze No_Nomen...what ya gonna do with that?
Kill humpback whales?
LOL!
HeHeHe! I just love what other Folks call "recoil".
A glutton for punishment I am. HaHaHa!
I don't think I'll buy one, just borrow one for a few rounds.

.

[MadScienceType]

Well, limp-wristing will jam anything if you don't grip well enough to give the gun something to cycle against.

Anyway, like I said, just a personal preference as far as Glocks go. I don't get into the flame wars of Glocks v. Everything Else like some do. They're good guns, they just don't suit me. Yeah, steel-framed 1911s can be weighty, but a good aluminum-framed 1911 can be nice for carry, though I do worry about the fatigue life of aluminum v. steel. Practice with the heavy, carry the light! The rate-of-fire thing may have to do with recoil spring strength. The 1911 usually comes with a pretty stout spring in it, which slows cycling, but Wolff springs can get you a lighter replacement if it's a concern. Another nice piece is the H&K USP, though you're starting to talk more $$$ here. I have a Compact USP in .45 and I loooove it. Light, since it has the polymer frame/steel slide assy. and it will also eat anything, just like a Glock and has a nice trigger (single action, that is. The DA trigger sucks). Accurate as all get-out and it has nice sights as well as more conventional controls that I'm used to. You don't need tools to strip this baby either. I quit carrying it in favor of the 1911 simply because the double-stack frame is less comfortable to conceal than the thin, single-stack 1911. USP mags are a lot more than the Glocks though, and there's no (legal) 10+ caps on the market (that I know of).

The best [modern] shotgun ever made is an Ithaca pump.

Duh! I forgot about Ithicas! They're also an excellent choice, though I've never owned one, just shot a few. One thing to remember about shotguns is that no matter how "boss" it may look, resist with all your will the urge to ditch the standard stock in favor of just a pistol grip. You'll be nowhere near as accurate w/o a shouldered gun and the recoil with anything other than light loads will be hell. Saw a guy at the range one time pull his new pistol-gripped Mossberg 500 out of the box and start to fire 3" Magnum 00 buckshot loads out of it. I just grinned 'cause I knew what was coming. He left after three shots, holding his wrist, with a nice weal on his head where the gun jumped out of his off hand and smacked him in the face. If you're worried about the full-length gun being unwieldy in close quarters, unless you live in an efficiency apt. this concern is more theoretical than real. The standard 18" cylinder-bore gun is pretty handy, even with the stock. If you still must have a shorter weapon of some sort, get a folding stock for your pump gun, since there's nothing illegal about a folder on a pump-action gun, as there would be for a semi-auto (don't get me started on the "assault weapon" crap). Though it looks cool and won't rust, I don't think stainless is a necessary expense unless you plan on living near or on the ocean. Stainless is also more reflective too, though that's in danger of me getting bogged down in theoretical tactical details.

Glad to see women here take an active interest in armed self-defense. Blondie, you're a credit to womankind!

Oh, one last thing about ammo, specifically Wolf. It is decent ammo, but make sure to get the fully copper-jacketed rounds. Wolf makes other ammo that's called bi-metal, which means the jacket has steel in it, and that's not good for your barrel long term. The bi-metal stuff's about $5 a case cheaper ('cause steel's cheaper than copper) but it's worth the money to get copper-only jackets. Also, consider if the "fun" starts, you'll want to have the best hunting ammo you can. The FMJ round is good for practice, but why not have some soft-points in reserve? The military's bound to use FMJs, but you ain't!

[Blondie]

no_nomen, that's a BIG gun you posted in the pic. I don't even know if I could lift it up, much less shoot it (haha). I guess you won't be using that for carry, right?

Speaking of double stack mags, I think the B. 92 comes with an optional double stack now, staring maybe a year or two ago. It's true about the difference in bulk, though.

[Granddragon36]

Go with what YOU feel is best. If you like revolvers, go with a revolver. Personally, if I "couldn't" afford (hey, you know what your life is worth) a good .45 ACP (either revolver or auto) I would get a good used .357 and shoot .38 Specials in it, but if I couldn't get .38s, I'd still be able to shot .357s.

9mm vs. .45 ACP. Well no compares themselves to the loser, so why do you think it is always "X vs. .45"? You never see "9mm vs. .25 ACP" do you? You never here boxers going "so and so vs. Pee Wee Herman" do you? It's always "X vs. Geo. Foreman". As long as we are saddled with 10 round mags, you got 10 rounds either way. In REAL LIFE shooting, the .45 FMJ is about like the 9mm soft/hollow point, but the .45 soft/hollow points both make a bigger hole going in and coming out than do the 9mm wonder bullets. Same with the pre-fragged bullets, sure they make the 9mm a good stopper, but the .45 is STILL making a bigger hole, packing more "punch", making a bigger mess, so on and so forth.

Now if size/concealablity/weight is the problem, go small 9mm if you want. Sure it is easier to carry and in real world fights 2-3 9mms do the work of one .45 (amazing how no one waits around to get shot a second or third time), but the pointed stick you have with you beats the rocket launcher at home.

[no_nomen]

I don't get into the flame wars of Glocks v. Everything Else like some do.!I thought the 'flame wars' were "Everything Else vs. Glock"... :confused: ;~))

For anyone looking for a thin, small, very light weight .45 that has far less
perceived recoil than an alloy frame 1911 consider the Glock 36. You can wear
this all day and hardly realise it's there! Find one at a range that will rent it to
you and see if you like it. A couple of extra 6rnd mags in your pocket should
make you feel very comfortable. ;>)) Be sure and save up a few $ and get
Tritium Night Sight installed. Most evil things come out after dark... :eek:

btw: If you prefer the feel of rubber grips a good thing to do is look in the
trash behind a bycycle store and get some innertubes the're always throwing
out.Cut into 2"+/- strips, turn 'em inside out and slip on 36 grip. Wonderful!!!
and one innertube will make enough grips for years... for free.

"The new „slim-line" GLOCK 36 with it's 6 rounds magazine
became the first choice for a .45 concealated carry weapon."

Length (slide) 6.77 in.
Height 4.76 in. 121 mm
Width 1.13 in 28.5 mm.
Barrel length 3.78 in. 96 mm
Magazine capacity 6

Mass (weight) Empty without magazine 20.11 oz.

http://www.glock.com/home.htm
http://www.glock.com/_45.htm

[SMG3000]

Well, limp-wristing will jam anything if you don't grip well enough to give the gun something to cycle against.

Anyway, like I said, just a personal preference as far as Glocks go. I don't get into the flame wars of Glocks v. Everything Else like some do. They're good guns, they just don't suit me. Yeah, steel-framed 1911s can be weighty, but a good aluminum-framed 1911 can be nice for carry, though I do worry about the fatigue life of aluminum v. steel. Practice with the heavy, carry the light! The rate-of-fire thing may have to do with recoil spring strength. The 1911 usually comes with a pretty stout spring in it, which slows cycling, but Wolff springs can get you a lighter replacement if it's a concern. Another nice piece is the H&K USP, though you're starting to talk more $$$ here. I have a Compact USP in .45 and I loooove it. Light, since it has the polymer frame/steel slide assy. and it will also eat anything, just like a Glock and has a nice trigger (single action, that is. The DA trigger sucks). Accurate as all get-out and it has nice sights as well as more conventional controls that I'm used to. You don't need tools to strip this baby either. I quit carrying it in favor of the 1911 simply because the double-stack frame is less comfortable to conceal than the thin, single-stack 1911. USP mags are a lot more than the Glocks though, and there's no (legal) 10+ caps on the market (that I know of).



Duh! I forgot about Ithicas! They're also an excellent choice, though I've never owned one, just shot a few. One thing to remember about shotguns is that no matter how "boss" it may look, resist with all your will the urge to ditch the standard stock in favor of just a pistol grip. You'll be nowhere near as accurate w/o a shouldered gun and the recoil with anything other than light loads will be hell. Saw a guy at the range one time pull his new pistol-gripped Mossberg 500 out of the box and start to fire 3" Magnum 00 buckshot loads out of it. I just grinned 'cause I knew what was coming. He left after three shots, holding his wrist, with a nice weal on his head where the gun jumped out of his off hand and smacked him in the face. If you're worried about the full-length gun being unwieldy in close quarters, unless you live in an efficiency apt. this concern is more theoretical than real. The standard 18" cylinder-bore gun is pretty handy, even with the stock. If you still must have a shorter weapon of some sort, get a folding stock for your pump gun, since there's nothing illegal about a folder on a pump-action gun, as there would be for a semi-auto (don't get me started on the "assault weapon" crap). Though it looks cool and won't rust, I don't think stainless is a necessary expense unless you plan on living near or on the ocean. Stainless is also more reflective too, though that's in danger of me getting bogged down in theoretical tactical details.

Glad to see women here take an active interest in armed self-defense. Blondie, you're a credit to womankind!

Oh, one last thing about ammo, specifically Wolf. It is decent ammo, but make sure to get the fully copper-jacketed rounds. Wolf makes other ammo that's called bi-metal, which means the jacket has steel in it, and that's not good for your barrel long term. The bi-metal stuff's about $5 a case cheaper ('cause steel's cheaper than copper) but it's worth the money to get copper-only jackets. Also, consider if the "fun" starts, you'll want to have the best hunting ammo you can. The FMJ round is good for practice, but why not have some soft-points in reserve? The military's bound to use FMJs, but you ain't!


With rifles, your saying that FMJs are not as good as "soft points" against attackers?

[cabinger]

Being an amateur gunsmith, I can address this issue pretty well.

If you can afford a .45, get it. One shot from a .45 equals two from a 9mm. Use round hollow-points, NOT flat ones. Copper-jacketed only.

As far as a long gun, get a Mini-14 or a Mini-30 in stainless steel. Yeah, I know that you cannot get many parts for a Mini. You don't need to. They are built like tanks. Who cares?

Shotguns have no range. Forget them.

As for brands, modern Taurus are actually pretty good for people on a budget. If you can afford it, though, get a Colt 1991A1. And change the plastic mainspring housing/trigger.


Taurus is good? <throws back his head and laughs>

Try CZ for a budget auto. Likewise, Makarovs.

[no_nomen]

With rifles, your saying that FMJs are not
as good as "soft points" against attackers?

Good places to drop by and ask ???s

http://www.ak-47.net/

http://www.glocktalk.com/

High Power Club
This clubhouse is for rifle and shotgun fans.

Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner is a forum for the discussion of all of the various types
of ammunition out there. If you have a question about the merits of a
particular brand/type of ammo, this is the place to pose it.


.

[no_nomen]

Taurus is good? <throws back his head and laughs>
Try CZ for a budget auto. Likewise, Makarovs.
Oh Yes! Maks are very reliabile! And very inexpensive also!
A bit underpowered for my taste. A little bit larger and
heavier than Glocks etc ... But fun to shoot. Great value!
Did I mention reliable hahaha! Built like a brick $h'thouse!!!

Good Mak discussion here:
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=202425

Learn lots more about 'em here:
http://makarov.com/

buy 'em at gunshows or private owner sales cheap!

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/pm.jpg

[no_nomen]

.

And you're not on a real strict budget:.. :D



http://www.whiterevolution.com/forum14/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10194/normal_tactical6.jpg

[Blondie]

No_nomen, is that an over/under pistol grip shotgun? I don't think I've ever seen that gun before.

I bought a Makarov 9mm from some place on the internet out in Ohio, had it shipped to my FFL here, and it's pretty nice. It was dirt cheap, was some kind of eastern European surplus, if I remember correctly. I bought it just to have a semi and never use it. I don't remember what I paid, but I think it was maybe $50 or so, but I do remember it was very, very inexpensive.

[no_nomen]

Hi there Blondie,

That's a high-powered flashlight on the front of the S/G.
"Nasty things come out at night".

That Mak round is not a full power 9mm Para.
Maks come in 9mm Makarov and .380.
A Little less powerful than a 9mm Para.
Still LOTS! better than harsh words HaHaHa!
Southern Ohio Guns probably.
http://www.southernohiogun.com/

They are currently offering a "Polish Mak" for sale.
But watch out! Itz only a "Mak" cal. - Not a true Mak!
OK for collectors - not for when TSHTF etc. or lot of fun.

If you paid $50 or so you got a "steal".
$150 or so more normal price - still dirt cheap
for a great pistol!

You need to pick up some (10+) extra mags for $5+
You wouldn't leave home in your car with only one "gas tank"
if that tank only held 6-7-8 gallons would you?

See URLS below for discussion on Maks and pix

Good Mak discussion here:
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=202425

Learn lots more about 'em here:
http://makarov.com/

buy 'em at gunshows or private owner sales cheap!

.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

9mm para vs 45acp? Come on. 45 hits hard and the bad guy stops. 9mm is a .38. If you can carry a 45 and shoot it competently, 45 is the way to go. Experts agree. I cite Jeff Cooper, who carries more wieght Shooting competently is the main factor. A hit with a 22lr is better than a miss with a 45. Along the same lines, "greater capacity" of 9mm is irrelevant. Most self defense uses of handguns occur up close, in the dark, and are resolved in less than 10 shots. If you need more than 10 shots for a self defense incident, you aint aiming the goddamned thing, and you probably wont get to number 11 it will be too late.

Would be shooters are advised to skip gun hoarding. If you want to hoard, hoard ammo. When the SHF, guns abound and ammo is in short supply. But better than hoarding, even, is learning to use the arms you've got and practicing regularly. Also, best to do structured practice like IPSC or IDPA instead of plinking.

[Steve B]

I thought the 'flame wars' were "Everything Else vs. Glock"... :confused: ;~))

For anyone looking for a thin, small, very light weight .45 that has far less
perceived recoil than an alloy frame 1911 consider the Glock 36. You can wear
this all day and hardly realise it's there! Find one at a range that will rent it to
you and see if you like it. A couple of extra 6rnd mags in your pocket should
make you feel very comfortable. ;>)) Be sure and save up a few $ and get
Tritium Night Sight installed. Most evil things come out after dark... :eek:

btw: If you prefer the feel of rubber grips a good thing to do is look in the
trash behind a bycycle store and get some innertubes the're always throwing
out.Cut into 2"+/- strips, turn 'em inside out and slip on 36 grip. Wonderful!!!
and one innertube will make enough grips for years... for free.

"The new „slim-line" GLOCK 36 with it's 6 rounds magazine
became the first choice for a .45 concealated carry weapon."

Length (slide) 6.77 in.
Height 4.76 in. 121 mm
Width 1.13 in 28.5 mm.
Barrel length 3.78 in. 96 mm
Magazine capacity 6

Mass (weight) Empty without magazine 20.11 oz.

http://www.glock.com/home.htm
http://www.glock.com/_45.htm


Hmmm no_nomen, Tritium night sights on a gun with a 3.78 inch barrel? Isn't that sort of like tits on a bull?

[no_nomen]

Hmmm no_nomen, Tritium night sights on a gun with
a 3.78 inch barrel? Isn't that sort of like tits on a bull?
SB Sir,

Since "nasty things come out at night" I find it only logical to equip every "tool" with nigtsights. Otherwise "the boogyman might get me". Nasty things they are too. My mother warned me about them!

[SMG3000]

The next handgun I'm going to get is probably going to be the Glock 21. I want to know- if I want to buy it new, am I supposed to haggle with the seller (the seller would be a franchise outlet, not a mom and pop shop) to get the price down or can they just go without driving me into the poor house?
I bought my revolver without even THINKING about haggling on the price. Jesus!

[no_nomen]

I want to know- if I want to buy it new, am I supposed to
haggle with the seller (the seller would be a franchise outlet, not a mom and
pop shop) to get the price down

SMG3000,

I suggest you would do well to read the first link below and then
visit the 2nd. Ask many .45 Glock owners at once. You may be
delighted w/ what you learn there.

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=2966#post2966

The Big Dawgs Club - This is a forum for those GT'ers that like that ultimate Glock, the G-30.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=32

.

[SMG3000]

I see the Glock 30 has a grip that is not as short as the Glock.com picture makes it out to be! Thats good because what I really want is a pistol that has a full-on grip.
About the "ported" barrels. Since these use the gas of the discharging cartridge to stablize the gun quicker, doesnt that mean the round has less pressure propelling it (meaning it doesnt travel to its target as fast)?

[no_nomen]

Thats good because what I really want is a pistol that has a full-on grip.

About the "ported" barrels...?
SMG,

If the 30 w/ the stock 10 rnd mag is a little too short for you
add a Scherer Grip Extension to your mags.

See attachment at bottom.

............http://glockmeister.com/catalog/images/sh2627.jpg

Visit:
http://glockmeister.com/catalog/pro...90d3264346733bf

Are you refering to the Compensated Barrels? If so, forget it.
If you want a project pistol to modify and 'fix up' pick up a 1911.

A 'stock' 30 right out of the box needs only one addition.
NightSights (Tritium-glow in the dark) are mandatory! $65-80
+ installation will get you fixed right up.

............http://www.topglock.com/images/PT3DOTGG.gif
Other brands are fine as well, other sellers too.

OH! I see some on sale right now for $50 damn good deal!
http://www.topglock.com/catalog/sights.htm

Notice: The "Hi-Vis LitePipe" sights shown on this page are not
"glow in the dark" Night Sights.

Visit http://www.glocktalk.com and you'll learn a lot quick!

.

[Bei zhidov]

2 best pieces for urban warfare I ever used were VSS Vintorez and MN-23, but for battlefield conditions - dirt, rain, snow, heat, cold, too tired to clean - they are too fragile. SVD has no competition here.

[SMG3000]

2 best pieces for urban warfare I ever used were VSS Vintorez and MN-23, but for battlefield conditions - dirt, rain, snow, heat, cold, too tired to clean - they are too fragile. SVD has no competition here.

I found these weapons you mention at http://www.doa-aa.com/weapons3.htm and http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn18-e.htm
I hate all these firearm restrictions because I think I'd be happy with any of them.

[no_nomen]

I hate all these firearm restrictions because
I think I'd be happy with any of them.
If you really want to have 'some fun' how about:

[SMG3000]

If you really want to have 'some fun' how about:

Where and how do you get such a thing!? That looks like it could take down pesky satellites.

[no_nomen]

Where and how do you get such a thing!?
A google search turned up 320+ hits for Lahti 20mm.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=LAHTI+20MM

:cool: http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/lahti/l.htm :cool:

Have fun!

[MadScienceType]

Hmmm. $8500 actually isn't bad for a Lahti. Of course you gotta bed permission from the gummint to own a "destructive device" and all, not to mention find ammo for it. I guess you could reload, but I think finding dies would be a bitch!

While we're wishing, I'd like a Solothurn 20mm.
http://www.inert-ord.net/atrkts/50-55-20/Solothurn20mm.jpg

Swiss craftsmanship at its finest, baby!

[Gott]

Hmmm. $8500 actually isn't bad for a Lahti. Of course you gotta bed permission from the gummint to own a "destructive device" and all, not to mention find ammo for it. I guess you could reload, but I think finding dies would be a bitch!

While we're wishing, I'd like a Solothurn 20mm.
http://www.inert-ord.net/atrkts/50-55-20/Solothurn20mm.jpg

Swiss craftsmanship at its finest, baby!


Why don't you guys stop kidding around and just go get yourself an 88.

[no_nomen]

.

Santa's coming !

And guess what he has hitched to his sleigh !

quad 50mm BMG

[T.Garrett]

Greetz

Here's a nice selection of Vietnam era toyz displayed that I found on the web he he he ...enjoy, its from an old photo, so resolution is not good but look at the nice variety ... Happy New Year Gentlemen

T.Garrett

[Paki Baiter]

[QUOTE=SMG3000]I own a single firearm, a .38 special revolver with five chambers.... Quote)



Quote:
I own a single firearm, a .38 special revolver with five chambers. I bought it new and have outfitted it with various ammo.
The guy at a local gun range seemed to know the ins and outs of guns and ammo and he stated that a 9mm can serve as well as a .45 for the simple fact that today's ammo evens out the performance issue.

PB:
The 38 is obviously the most reliable, having countless less moving parts. This should only be used as a back-up weapon in a tight situation, if you already have an automatic.
I’ve last owned an automatic about 20 years ago, so I don’t know what technical advances have been performed on the 45’s design. Back then, you couldn’t hit a broad side of the Queen Mary with it.
The 9mm Belgian-made “Browning” used to be standard police issue, back then, for several gööd reasons. The projectile itself is almost identicle in size to the 38 meaning that the 9mm had ample stopping power. The weapon itself was accurate at the same time almost recoil-free. Facit: you could get more direct hits from the 9mm in the same time-span than you would from the 38 and this hasn’t to do with the 14 round capacity before changing the clip.
If I had to go into a ghetto in Rio de Janiero to shoot it out with a drug cartel, I’d rely on the 9mm. It would be unthinkable to go in with a 45

Quote:
Considering that most 9mm handguns are less pricey than .45 calibers, I was very interested in this claim. Frankly price IS a big issue with me. I was actually looking at this .45: http://www.taurususa.com/products/p...category=Pistol
which seems like a good deal.
Also how about this 9mm http://www.taurususa.com/products/p...category=Pistol

PB:
I’ll check these sites out later, but my 1st choice is the 9mm, at the moment. Back then, u could get a 9mm Browning from a biker for 100$, of course with a dubious history

Quote:
Again, price is a big consideration. If I use those expensive MagSafe pre-fragmented ammo in the 9mm, that should be a pretty damn powerful weapon. According to the MagSafe company, the .38 pre-fragmented travel at 1,800 feet per second, with a 469 ft-lbs impact force. It claims to have a deadlier wound channel than any .40 cal JHP ammo you can buy. The larger caliber rounds are respectively more powerful.

PB:
There u go, u’ve just answered your own question. Why would anybody want a 45, in this case. It puzzles me that their more expensive. What do you intend on doing with this weapon, anyway? Shoot holes thru the Queen Mary’s engine block?

Quote:
Another consideration is that I do not have a distance weapon. At the local gun shop I can get a used AK-47 for about 525.

PB:
Isn’t this the “Kalisznikov”?! If so, this is anything but a distance weapon. You could almost shoot yourself with it. The only thing gööd about this weapon is it’s reliability.
You could get this weapon at a fraction of this unbelievable price by dealing with a serviceman coming home from Iraq. There should be an ample amount of these souvenirs

Quote:
What am I mostly likely to need- a backup handgun …

PB:
Keep the 38 for this purpose

Distribute to all pit bull owning Brits:
http://www.wspa.org.uk/index.php?page=40

[SMG3000]

[QUOTE=SMG3000]I own a single firearm, a .38 special revolver with five chambers.... Quote)



Quote:
I own a single firearm, a .38 special revolver with five chambers. I bought it new and have outfitted it with various ammo.
The guy at a local gun range seemed to know the ins and outs of guns and ammo and he stated that a 9mm can serve as well as a .45 for the simple fact that today's ammo evens out the performance issue.

PB:
The 38 is obviously the most reliable, having countless less moving parts. This should only be used as a back-up weapon in a tight situation, if you already have an automatic.
I’ve last owned an automatic about 20 years ago, so I don’t know what technical advances have been performed on the 45’s design. Back then, you couldn’t hit a broad side of the Queen Mary with it.
The 9mm Belgian-made “Browning” used to be standard police issue, back then, for several gööd reasons. The projectile itself is almost identicle in size to the 38 meaning that the 9mm had ample stopping power. The weapon itself was accurate at the same time almost recoil-free. Facit: you could get more direct hits from the 9mm in the same time-span than you would from the 38 and this hasn’t to do with the 14 round capacity before changing the clip.
If I had to go into a ghetto in Rio de Janiero to shoot it out with a drug cartel, I’d rely on the 9mm. It would be unthinkable to go in with a 45

Quote:
Considering that most 9mm handguns are less pricey than .45 calibers, I was very interested in this claim. Frankly price IS a big issue with me. I was actually looking at this .45: http://www.taurususa.com/products/p...category=Pistol
which seems like a good deal.
Also how about this 9mm http://www.taurususa.com/products/p...category=Pistol

PB:
I’ll check these sites out later, but my 1st choice is the 9mm, at the moment. Back then, u could get a 9mm Browning from a biker for 100$, of course with a dubious history

Quote:
Again, price is a big consideration. If I use those expensive MagSafe pre-fragmented ammo in the 9mm, that should be a pretty damn powerful weapon. According to the MagSafe company, the .38 pre-fragmented travel at 1,800 feet per second, with a 469 ft-lbs impact force. It claims to have a deadlier wound channel than any .40 cal JHP ammo you can buy. The larger caliber rounds are respectively more powerful.

PB:
There u go, u’ve just answered your own question. Why would anybody want a 45, in this case. It puzzles me that their more expensive. What do you intend on doing with this weapon, anyway? Shoot holes thru the Queen Mary’s engine block?

Quote:
Another consideration is that I do not have a distance weapon. At the local gun shop I can get a used AK-47 for about 525.

PB:
Isn’t this the “Kalisznikov”?! If so, this is anything but a distance weapon. You could almost shoot yourself with it. The only thing gööd about this weapon is it’s reliability.
You could get this weapon at a fraction of this unbelievable price by dealing with a serviceman coming home from Iraq. There should be an ample amount of these souvenirs

Quote:
What am I mostly likely to need- a backup handgun …

PB:
Keep the 38 for this purpose

Distribute to all pit bull owning Brits:
http://www.wspa.org.uk/index.php?page=40

Well, I was thinking the revolver should be the primary weapon. That way, the first weapon I pull out is very likely to fire without issue (unless I am fool enough to use Fiocchi ammo which has such hard primers they will usually not be fired by the firing pin in my .38!).
Then, after definitely being able to shoot and having run out of bullets and taken cover, I could pull my semi-auto pistol and have lots of rounds in case of a real gun battle.
Thats just the idea I have, I really don't know the tactical soundness of that approach.

I have heard that police have found the .45 to be the best stopper and then others say its known as a "one-shot stop" ammo. I figure that since the limit is 10 rounds for a pistol magazine, it might as well be the more devistating .45 caliber. And thats what I heard- that the .45 makes the biggest "mess" and that 9mm often just goes through the target, allowing them to get close enough to stab, for example.
Now, if I can get a 9mm pistol with a magazine holding 16 rounds (and doesnt extend past the grip's length) I would be more inclined to it, but I don't know if thats affordable? I thought all 9mm pistols you could buy were limited to accepting only 10-round magazines (not counting the magazines that extend past the grip, which I don't think I like)?

Your right about the MagSafes. I don't think anyone else commented on them specifically. I can't understand why its so difficult for people to settle on one caliber and not drive me insane :D
So maybe I should get a 9mm with MagSafe ammo, which would take care (I suppose) of the stopping-power problem. A 9mm MagSafe bullet fragments and would not simply go through the target. Hah!

The AK-47 is not a distance weapon? That sucks. I imagine the most likely real-world use in my situation would be repelling Blacks/Puerto Ricans from my residence and immediate surroundings, which includes those shooting at me from behind cars, SUVs, homes and the corners of homes and down block-long streets. Is the AK-47 good for that?
I don't know if I'd have much time to reload the magazines, so I want large capacity ones. Thats why I don't want a bolt-action rifle.

I have found AK-47 clones for 350 in very good condition at places like these:

http://www.gunbroker.com/?AID=5377676&PID=812222

Maybe I'll think to escape somewheres before it gets down to house-to-house fighting, in which case I'd want a really long distance rifle for hunting?

I have no plans against the Queen Mary, I swear.

[Georgie]

Why not get a .44 magnum? It'll put someone down and keep him there. Guaranteed. LOL
http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976413059-1.jpg

[Der Führer]

Why not get a .44 magnum? It'll put someone down and keep him there. Guaranteed. LOL
http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976413059-1.jpg


DF:
Better to kill a mosquito with a sawed off shotgun rather than kill a horse with a fly swatter

[MadScienceType]

I see a few misconceptions on a couple of posts.

First, there's no way the 1911 .45 clone can be considered "inaccurate." It is the favorite choice of most PPC and IPSC competitors in the "major" category and the gun has won countless matches. Granted, a lot of those are special "race guns" that have been modified extensively, but the well-made 1911 clones have also won their fair share of "out of the box" stock firearm shoots. You may be thinking of the old, wartime 1911s that had a reputation for inaccuracy, mainly due to the haste of wartime production and sloppy parts fitting (you could shake some of those and hear the slide/barrel assembly rattle). Newly manufactured guns from a decent maker are plenty accurate right out of the box, but if you cheap out and buy surplus guns like a Ballister Molina from Argentina, it's a crapshoot.

As for the round itself, I say let the .45 ACP's 90-year service record speak for itself. It's chalked up quite a reputation as a man-stopper, and that's mostly with round-nose ball ammo, which isn't the optimum choice for street applications. When you use a well-designed hollowpoint (like Federal's Hydrashok 230 grain) or any of the specialty ammo like the MagSafe or Glaser Safety Slug, you truly have a weapon capable of putting your target down. Now, there's nothing wrong with a 9mm. Countless people have been successfully brought down with it, but to flatly say that the 9mm is a better round is mistaken, IMO. The 9mm also has a reputation for overpenetration and you really don't want that, since all the bullet's energy should ideally be transferred to the target. Of course, 9mm MagSafes and the like will take care of this. The legendary recoil of the .45 ACP cartridge is also overstated. It isn't anything terrible to begin with, and with a little practice (and you should practice if you're gonna carry) you can keep rapid double-taps in the X-ring all day at seven to ten yards, no problem. Even the "Mozambiuqe Drill" (a double-tap to the chest and a finisher to the head) is no problem for a moderately skilled shooter.

10+ magazines for 9mms are still available, though they're more expensive. If you decide on a 9mm, look for police trade-in guns (stay away from S&W automatic pistols though; they suck) that usually come with at least one high-cap magazine. The guns are usually in good shape and haven't been fired that much (most cops only seem to shoot once or twice a year to qualify). Check publications like Shotgun News and go to local guns shows for more info.

Lastly, to say that the AK is not a distance weapon is also flat-out wrong. Sure, it's not going to win any awards in bullseye competitions (a 2.5-3" group at 100 yards is pretty good for an AK), but out to 250-300 yards it does just fine, and the round is the ballistic equivalent of the venerable .30-30 Winchester cartridge. In an urban environment, long-range shots are the exception and not the rule, so pinpoint accuracy at 500 yards is not a big factor. Besides, you've gotta see your target to engage it, and have you ever really noticed just how small a man is at even 200 yards with open sights? Tell you what, when you as a shooter are skilled enough to be more accurate than the AK, then worry about getting something with more accuracy. The AK has several other advantages, including its legendary reliability, the low price of the rifle itself, cheap magazines and very cheap ammo. Combined together, the AK is a very effective and economical package for the serious defensive rifleman. In an urban environment, the AK has another big advantage over its M-16/AR15 contemporary's round, the 5.56mm. The 7.62x39 round of the AK will penetrate light to medium cover much more effectively than the 5.56mm. The 7.62x39 will routinely penetrate both sides of a car body and have enough steam left to wound or kill anyone on the other side (I've tried this, though of course not with actual people), whereas the 5.56mm will penetrate only one side, and the slug fragments immediately thereafter. Incidentally, the fragmentation of the 5.56mm is one key to its reputation as a nasty wound-inflictor, but this only happens at the higher velocities found at shorter ranges. Naturally, the 7.62x39 won't penetrate something like an engine block or more than one wheel rim, but for you urban fellas forseeing the need to engage targets behind light cover (dumpsters, newspaper boxes, cars, etc.), the AK in 7.63x39 is the way to go. One accessory for the AK I would recommend is the addition of a red-dot optical sight. The major weak point on the AK is the poor stock sights. The red-dot allows both-eyes-open target engagement and rapid acquisition. The "Kobra" series is designed for the AK and is relatively inexpensive, but very well-made, but you'll need to get an AK with a side-mount scope rail or have one installed.

The SKS is also a cheaper alternative to the AKM, but the quality is iffier.

The AK can also be used to hunt, and the soft-nosed 7.62x39 will take a deer nicely. You really shouldn't be taking shots on deer at 400+ yards anyway, so the long-range hunting rifle is not as necessary as you might think.

Have fun and practice, practice, practice because I can assure you, the nogs will.

[Der Führer]

Quote:
Well, I was thinking the revolver should be the primary weapon. That way, the first weapon I pull out is very likely to fire without issue (unless I am fool enough to use Fiocchi ammo which has such hard primers they will usually not be fired by the firing pin in my .38!).

DF:
I can’t imagine that there is any difference in reliability between a revolver and a state-of-the-art automatic when it’s about getting out the 1st round when it’s already in the chamber.
Now that you explained the purposes of your gun ownership, we can tailor our advice towards your needs.
1st of all don’t let those overkill freaks talk you in to getting a 45. Your not going out there to grind meat. What you intend to do is serious business, in other wörds you need to score effective hits, quickly and at various ranges at which the targets located from a distance farther than from close range will be best taken from a high velocity automatic, namely the hollow-point or teflon-tipped (where available) 9mm.
Don’t forget armor: You’re going to need a bullet proof vest and where applicable, night vision. The best gun on the planet won’t do you any gööd if you get hit, so protect your vital organs, because only a fool will try to shoot you in the fööt.
You’re showing valiance, because you refuse taking part in “White Flight”, therefore it angers me that others aren’t taking you seriously by giving you false advice, in other wörds, this 45 cal. Bullshit

Quote:
Then, after definitely being able to shoot and having run out of bullets and taken cover, I could pull my semi-auto pistol and have lots of rounds in case of a real gun battle.
Thats just the idea I have, I really don't know the tactical soundness of that approach.

DF:
It sounds here that you are rather sceptical as to the reliability of an automatic weapon.
I have never heard of a documented case which gives reasons to reinforce this scepticism.
If the weapon is in gööd shape and clean, it’s unlikely to jam. Have it checked by a competent gunsmith. However, this is your ultimate decision and you’ll just have to get into some of these battles in order to gain confidence in your weapons and to find out which you prefer.
Don’t arm yourself only with firearms. A knife should always accompany you for silent wörk. A crossbow is highly effective, but not cheap

Quote:
I have heard that police have found the .45 to be the best stopper and then others say its known as a "one-shot stop" ammo. I figure that since the limit is 10 rounds for a pistol magazine, it might as well be the more devistating .45 caliber. And thats what I heard- that the .45 makes the biggest "mess" and that 9mm often just goes through the target, allowing them to get close enough to stab, for example.

DF:
It hardly matters where you hit a target with a .44 Magnum or probably even a .45 because it’ll blow away most of what you’re shooting, but these are comparably effective at short ranges which you intend on avoiding in a gun battle. Of course there will be situations where you can’t avoid this, but don’t limit yourself to only short range effectiveness. You need to score, perferably with only 1 shot, then move on to the next target.

Quote:
Now, if I can get a 9mm pistol with a magazine holding 16 rounds (and doesnt extend past the grip's length) I would be more inclined to it, but I don't know if thats affordable? I thought all 9mm pistols you could buy were limited to accepting only 10-round magazines (not counting the magazines that extend past the grip, which I don't think I like)?

DF:
The 10 round .45 will limit you to only 10 rounds between clip changes, whereas a Browning 9mm will offer you 4 more when 1 already is in the chamber. 4 extra rounds can mean the difference between life and death. 16 rounds? That’s interesting. I don’t have anx doubts that this is possible. I only wonder if they set the clip up where the rounds do not stack directly on top of 1 another, but rather in a “W” fashion almost side by side to achive the normal grip length

Quote:
Your right about the MagSafes. I don't think anyone else commented on them specifically. I can't understand why its so difficult for people to settle on one caliber and not drive me insane

DF:
They’ll drive u insane if you listen to them.
Try getting into some war games and I don’t mean virtual. There are enough people in our movement who are more than likely interested in setting up something like this or are already doing so.

Quote:
So maybe I should get a 9mm with MagSafe ammo, which would take care (I suppose) of the stopping-power problem. A 9mm MagSafe bullet fragments and would not simply go through the target. Hah!

DF:
Absolutely right!

Quote:
The AK-47 is not a distance weapon? That sucks. I imagine the most likely real-world use in my situation would be repelling Blacks/Puerto Ricans from my residence and immediate surroundings, which includes those shooting at me from behind cars, SUVs, homes and the corners of homes and down block-long streets. Is the AK-47 good for that?

DF:
Actually it was intended for other theaters. This is an all-purpose weapon whose main quality is reliability. The Viet Cong were still shooting after the M-16s jammed. You could drag tha AK thru mud and it’ll still fire. This is a globalized gun which is produced under licence in China, Bulgaria and wherever else around the communist part of the wörld, thus very inexpensive. If you travel to some 3rd wörld country, I don’t see a problem with you getting your hands on 1 for no more than 20$. But I don’t recommend this for urban house to house battlesin which case you won’t be dragging your weapon through filth and will need to shoot through cars more than behind them especially beyond the short ranges that the AK could only perform

Quote:
I have found AK-47 clones for 350 in very good condition at places like these:
http://www.gunbroker.com/?AID=5377676&PID=812222

DF:
Out of the question. You’re making overnight millionaires that way

Quote:
I have no plans against the Queen Mary, I swear.

DF:
Sorry, I meant the Queen Mary 2 which is the wörld’s biggest ocean liner
__________________

[SMG3000]

LOL! I am still learning but I ought not to complain.

Well, perhaps I will go with the 9mm after all, after thinking about it. If it has pre-fragmented and hollow-points it should make up the difference. And I will definitely practice with everything I get until I'm competent. I'm not sure why I said "16 round capacity", but I could be wrong. Maybe 14 is the limit for magazines that do not extend beyond the grip.

I actually do have a knife: http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/detail/220/222
It came with a 'kydex' sheath and I plan to wear it in one of these: http://www.smartcarry.com/index.htm It wouldnt be a fast draw, of course. But maybe I can convince an attacker to let me "adjust myself" before we combat.
Or, if it really is invisible, somehow on my belt. This knife is made by "Buck" and it cost 20 bucks at Walmart. I think it will work in a fight and maybe the other guy will turn tail and run upon seeing it. So I can stab him in the back :D

I'm going to be honest. If I could flee to Ireland, I'd do it. Maybe if I lived in a nice neighborhood I wouldnt, but my life expectancy doesnt seem so great here and I have a very serious doubt that anyone would listen to my plans for Whites to survive. Most of the Whites here in Florida I would rather see gone, though that may not be a very White attitude. I'd love to shoot my enemies, but not to save assholes and if I wont have a future.

Maybe I'd have a change of heart and want to return if I could leave, but I have a real yearning to not be here when things get nasty. Of course in reality, I will be trapped in some kind of horror whether I like it or not, as seems to be a law of Murphy.
Still, if there is a nice Irish family out there, preferably a rich one, and wishes to adopt a 300 month old American boy who is good around animals and is rarely fussy, I am for sale!

Perhaps I was incorrect about semi-auto pistol reliability. I was just thinking of things like "stove-piping" and that other thing, where the bullet gets stuck going from the magazine mouth to the chamber.

I hope that if people are doing war games, that they are very discreet! There is so much paranoia and real informants among WN circles that I doubt it would happen so easily. Perhaps a wax dummy wearing cloths and a sack over its head could be tied to a chair in a sound-proof basement. All trusted members of a group could be taken to this basement (one at a time) and told to empty a round into this "(insert WN enemy type here)"'s head. Maybe get one of those dancing plants to replace the mannequin's head, to simulate movement :D If the person refuses, they might be an informant. Or a dancing-plant lover, if they detect it is such a device.

Do you suggest an M-16 then? I would also get a twenty dollar AK-47, but how could it be transported home without detection? I get the feeling I'd be on my way to Guantanamo Bay with a sack over my head.

OMG. Wasn't there a cruiseliner recently held from leaving or entering an important port recently? I hope that false alarm wasn't unintentionally initiated by anyone here.

Yes, I am very careful. The ZOG wont be taking me out in a way that can make it seem justifiable. They will have to do the Weaver thing, if I am worth the bother.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

accurate comments from "madsciencetype."

stop wasting breath on this topic folks. I'll boil it down again.

1. if you have time to practice, get a 45. join a gun club and come shoot IPSC or IDPA with us. in no time you'll be a better shot than most cops you'll ever meet and 99.9% of nogs who have ever held a firearm.

2. if you dont have time, get a revolver. they're easy to use, and much more idiot proof than the 45 which is rather unforgiving to handling errors.

3. if you want a rifle ask yourself why. then do the research. VNNForum is not the place to do research. if you want a good all around gun to square away with a case of ammo for the Ragnarok, the AK is as good a choice as any. If you want a hunting rifle, do the research. IF you want to have something to use in a potential insurrection, the AR15 is the obvious choice due to what Che Guevarra pointed out in his writings, ie, the availability of parts and ammo requires that the guerilla arm himself with the same rifle as the occupying forces. Now, therein in lies the only reason to have a 9 mm, because the army sidearm is chambered for that round.

So there, all your bases are covered. Oh, yeah, get a Mossberg 590 shotgun while youre at it! LOL

[Magog]

I own a Rouger 9mm, a moosberg 12 gage, and a 22 rifel. A Pee wee bat, and some rambo knifes. I want a bullet proof vest, night googles, and 20 more 9m mags, a few more 12 gages, and a few 30/6 rifels. my kids a re small but soon I need to teach them to shoot.

[Steve B]

Some great posts here. I'll just give my opinion, for what it's worth.

1) The M-16A1 is a piece of shit! I was in the army, light weapons infantry and I know of what i speak. The thing jams at the most opportune times, sometimes for no apparent reason. It has to be kept cleaner than a knats ass to function properly. When it does function it's a good weapon...lotta firepower...700 to 800 rounds per minute, assuming you have a magazine that big.

Some of the guys I was in the army with were in Viet Nam and they ditched the M-16 the first chance they got and used the AK for reasons that many have already posted. If yer gonna invest in an assault weapon GET AN AK!!!

2) Handguns: revolvers are good, semi's are good, 9mm are good, 38's are good and so is the 45. It's all a matter of what suites you. Me I prefer the stopping power of a 45. Sure you can kill someone with a 38 or a 9mm but it better be a head shot or a shot to the heart. Like dirty harry said, "iv'e seen 38's careen off windsheilds".

They're a lotta bad people out their and some of them are doped up, cracked up, steroided up 300 lbs of menace and unless you have nerves of steel and are a crack shot you better be prepared for shots that don't hit vital regions and the purpose of shooting someone is to take him down with the first shot so you don't have to deal with 2 3 and 4.

Thats why i like a 45! You hit-em no matter where and it will knock them down. You hit someone with a 9 or 38 and maybe it will knock them down. I don't want maybes when my life is on the line!

Get a glock in a 45 caliber range and you can't go wrong. Easy to use, comfort, small recoil and the thing will never jam or fail you.

My 2 cents.

[Georgie]

Or if you really want stopping power get yourself a .44 magnum or a .50 AE LOL. Seriously though, does anyone know if the "kickback" on those guns is significant compared to like a .45?

[Talcarin]

I have to say one thing you have taste the Taurus millenium is a nice looking gun. For cal. I would say .45 in my opinion it is much better than the .9mm could ever be. The .45 has the nock down power to put a grown man on his butt. However you do have the problem of the round traveling through the target. Now since that would be bad I would seggest the .40 smith and wesson a round the cops have found to have the nock down power of .45 or .357 but it wont go through the target like the .9mm. So I would say try and find a Taurus millenium in .40 cal. As for brands I like the Tarurus you have piced out has I said eirlyer but I would go with HK or Glock. They are both very dependable and wont go south on ya.

thanks for reading I hope this helps you.

[Talcarin]

Or if you really want stopping power get yourself a .44 magnum or a .50 AE LOL. Seriously though, does anyone know if the "kickback" on those guns is significant compared to like a .45?

Well to answer your qwestion no there is no diference in kickback between the .44 mag. .50 AE or the .45 at least in the desert eagale the fact that how heavey the gun is obsorebs most of the impact.

[Subrosa]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in these posts is the fact that the .45 is subsonic, which means it's an excellent round for a silenced weapon. 9mm has to be reloaded to make it subsonic.

That fact in addtion to it's punch makes it my sidearm of choice, hands down.

[Granddragon36]

OK, just to throw a little gas on the fire -

ANY high quality firearm is OK, revolver or auto. No matter which you like, LEARN TO USE IT!! This means practice, practice, practice, and not just shooting up a few tin cans! There will be an USPSA/IPSA and/or IDPA group near you (see the IPSC/IDPA tread) and actually LEARN to shoot! Neither is great, but both are fun. You will learn to shoot while under stress and that is a great help. We (the IPSC group I belong to) has cops come and tell us how great they are, super fast, super accurate, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. The WORST shooter at our club beats their BEST shooter, every time! This pisses off the cops and they leave (good), but the cops probably are as good as 95% of the shooters out there. In short, the cops practice is to shoot at paper with unlimited time and can't hit a damn thing, while we practice drawing, aiming, reloading, and getting timed, so we have emptied a mag into the target before the cop has cleared leather. True we use special IPSC holsters, but I have used a concealment rig and still got off five AIMED rounds in 3 seconds, the cops take six or seven seconds to get the gun out! No I am not especially fast, but I am a shit load faster than 99.999% of the tin can blasters, and a whole lot more accurate!

Which gun is best, revolver or auto? ANY good firearm is fine. Revolvers jam just as often as autos (I had a Ruger Security-Six jam with factory ammo, it happens), but an auto is MUCH easier to clear and/or fix if anything happens. Glocks jam just as often as anything else as far as I have seen, and blow up MUCH easier than a (Colt/Springfield/Kimber) 1911 (yes I know what you get is really a 1911-A1), and yes, I have seen both let go. The difference was the 1911 was fine, the Glock was in parts. If you like Glocks (I don't but a few friends shoot them like lazers) than get a Glock. Check all the different sizes (they feel different) and calibers. I would stay with either .357 Mag for revolvers (shoot .38 Specials) or get a Taurus five shot .45 ACP revolver, 9mm (actually has a harder recoil impulse than .45), .40 S&W (also harder impulse, shoot the SAME gun with 9mm, .40 and .45 to see this), .45 ACP. My favorite is .45. Look at the Phillipine invasion at the turn of the century, we had the .38 Colt (9mm clone) and it failed MIZERABLY! They had to get the old thumb buster .45 Colts out! The military is going back to the .45 after the 9mm failed to do worth a shit, again. Sure alot of people have been killed with the 9mm, but the lowly .22 LR has killed even more. You want to kill them NOW, or three days from now after they have kiloled you and your family? Look at REAL WORLD shooting and the .45 beats teh shit out of the 9mm, with the same ammo. FMJ vs. FMJ, .45 wins. Hollow point vs. Hollow point, .45 wins. Beehive/frag ammo, vs. frag ammo, .45 wins. The cases you read are frag ammo 9mm vs. FMJ .45 and the .45 still holds it's own with 69% one shot stops.

Go to theindependentamerican.freeyellow.com and read the first four (free) issues. They have alot of NO BS articles and lay it out for you. The Jan/Feb issue is pay per view and worth the lousy $15 they want for six issues.

I leave you with this thought. No matter what gun you get, join a shhoting club and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

kindred spirit! listen up folks, granddragon laid it out straight.

read your reply about the tac reload in IDPA. your point is well taken, but I seem to recall years ago reading another point of view from Jeff Cooper.

[Granddragon36]

kindred spirit! listen up folks, granddragon laid it out straight.

read your reply about the tac reload in IDPA. your point is well taken, but I seem to recall years ago reading another point of view from Jeff Cooper.

OK, which quote from Chairman Jeff? While Jeff used to have his head together, lately he has been getting doofier and doofier. Hey, he's old and it happens. This does not take away from what he has done in the past however.

My personal view (from being shot at) is to dump the mag and put another one in any time I have the time (ie: behind something solid and not shooting), and if I can I'll pick the mag up, but I will NOT pull the used mag out, hold it in my hand and then pull a loaded mag out and put it in the gun and THEN put the semi-loaded mag in my pocket. This is as near suicide as you can get in real life.

When doing a "jungle run", the gamers walk or trot and look all over for targets, stop to shoot and then go on. This will get you killed in real life. In real life you run like hell, hammer anything you see on the way by going hell for leather, drop mags and keep running like your life depends on it, reloading as you go. This is what you do when ambushed and will get the biggest number of you alive on the far side. Practice like your life depends on it, not like your life is a game.

theindependentamerican.freeyellow.com - the mag for a real life.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

OK, which quote from Chairman Jeff? While Jeff used to have his head together, lately he has been getting doofier and doofier. Hey, he's old and it happens. This does not take away from what he has done in the past however.

My personal view (from being shot at) is to dump the mag and put another one in any time I have the time (ie: behind something solid and not shooting), and if I can I'll pick the mag up, but I will NOT pull the used mag out, hold it in my hand and then pull a loaded mag out and put it in the gun and THEN put the semi-loaded mag in my pocket. This is as near suicide as you can get in real life.

When doing a "jungle run", the gamers walk or trot and look all over for targets, stop to shoot and then go on. This will get you killed in real life. In real life you run like hell, hammer anything you see on the way by going hell for leather, drop mags and keep running like your life depends on it, reloading as you go. This is what you do when ambushed and will get the biggest number of you alive on the far side. Practice like your life depends on it, not like your life is a game.

theindependentamerican.freeyellow.com - the mag for a real life.

cant argue with that.

[wolfgar]

I go with 9mm. Why? Well it's cheap to shoot as I don't reload. 9mm is cheaper because it is a military round and factories mass produce the cartridge for military contracts which offsets the price for civilian sales. Additionally, with Corbon or any number of ammo offerings the 9mm is just as effective as anything else out there. Yes I'm familiar with the stories of .38's being shot at doped up Moro's in the Philippines, with no effect, what's odd is that I've never heard the Germans complain of 9mm loadings in their submachine guns or their pistols during WW2. I think the value of the .45 acp is psychological for some people. Realistically in FMJ configuration is the .45 acp going to be that much better than the 9mm?

[Angler]

Here are my two cents on this classic debate: It depends on the situation. Do I get a Nobel Prize for that brilliant insight? :D

Seriously though, neither caliber is best for all scenarios. Here's my understanding of some of the plusses and minuses of each -- if I'm wrong about anything, then I hope someone more knowledgeable will correct me.

Because a 9mm bullet is faster than a .45, 9mm has better penetration power for many types of obstacles and even light body armor (NIJ Class I). The drawback is that 9mm is known to be mediocre in the manstopping department, especially if you're using FMJ. This is even true when it's fired from submachine guns, let alone handguns -- a lot of SWAT pigs have bitched that their 9mm MP5s weren't taking out the housewives and grandfathers quickly enough. If you're up against a determined opponent who can shoot back, stopping power is obviously crucial.

Because .45 bullets are fat and slow, penetration of cover is not their strong suit. I believe even concealable NIJ Class I body armor will stop a .45 fired from a 5" barrel. However, the stopping power of the .45 is well-known and is even pretty good with ball ammo. That's important because even if you're shooting HP, thick clothing worn by your target can "clog" a hollowpoint and prevent it from expanding when it finally goes into his flesh; thus, a HP can sometimes only act as a FMJ anyway, and that's when a fatter bullet is nice to have.

All in all, I prefer the .45 over the 9mm, but to each his own. As far as which handgun is best, it's a good idea to try a few out before making a decision, if possible. Nevertheless, I strongly believe that Glocks are the best handguns by far. They are essentially impervious to rust and have their metal parts coated with a finish ("Tenifer") that is harder than an industrial file and nearly as hard as diamond! The plastic frames have a bit of flex in them, but they are still stronger than the steel of other guns. Glocks are also very reliable and accurate, and their barrels do not get "shot out." They essentially last forever unless you shoot bad reloads or all-lead bullets through them. Finally, you get all that for a price no higher than that of inferior guns.

A note about revolvers. The most potent .357 Mag load is probably the Federal 357B, which statistics have shown to have better stopping power than any other handgun round (including more powerful calibers). This is because too much power can cause an HP bullet to enter and exit your assailant before it even gets a chance to expand. The 125-grain 357B has just the right amount of power; however, its muzzle blast is pretty significant. It's not painful, but it's somewhat annoying and slows follow-up shots. Women and smaller men would be better served by a good .38 Special or a less potent .357 than the 357B.


BTW: If it comes down to getting a rifle versus getting a handgun, it is far more important to get a rifle!

As far as rifles go, I'm going to respectfully disagree about the Mini-14 or Mini-30 and recommend a good AK or AR-15 instead. I've heard just too many bad things about the Ruger Mini rifles -- that they overheat quickly, become very inaccurate during rapid fire, etc.

ARs have many advantages, but most have to be kept fairly clean. If you get an AR-15, do NOT get one with a .223 chamber unless it's going to be used strictly for target shooting. Get one with a chamber cut to miltary specs, i.e., for 5.56 NATO caliber. .223 and 5.56 are NOT precisely the same caliber, though they're very similar and are often used interchangeably. Anyone who says otherwise does not know what he's talking about. Also make sure the chamber and bore are chrome-plated. For a good AR-15 manufacturer, I recommend Bushmaster.

The AK variants are almost always more reliable than AR-15s, although there are lemons in any group (and I have an AR carbine that seems incapable of jamming). If you get an AK, you should go for the higher end of the scale rather than buying some used piece of shit. Something like this would probably be ideal: http://www.ak-103.com/.

Whatever you buy, be sure to research the reputation of the manufacturer. Some are known for putting out crappy products (e.g., Hesse) and others are known for bad customer service.

[Gruniak]

I can't believe I let a "9mm v .45" thread go this long without speaking my piece.

Here's some comments distilled from my observations and experience to date:

.45: I have no regular experience with one. However, this is the one round to choose, provided one shoots it accurately. Even ball ammo will at least put your opponent on his ass for a few moments. And the first few moments of a pistol fight are the most important. Better for that guy to drop for 10 seconds or so, and then get up and walk towards the rest of his life- provided YOU have the situation then in hand and decide to let him- than for a lighter-yet-faster projectile to put two, thorugh-and through drain holes in him, yet leave him standing for a few seconds or more, sending rounds in your direction for that duration. If you are thinking about buying one in this caliber, I suggest a Glock 30, a Colt (yes, a current Colt) 1911, or a Sig P220 or P245. Whatever fits your hand best, which is a more important consideration than cost or magazine capacity.

9mm: My current carry piece is a 9mm. This in general is more controllable than a .45 for many people. You will also find 9mm ammo anywhere ammo is sold, cheaper than larger and some smaller calibers. All of us ought to have at least one 9mm in the selection.

For first-timers I recommend either a Glock 26 or Sig P239, again whichever fits the hand best. The 115 gr. ball ammo is adequate for practice, but for practical applications I'd use 124 gr.+P from Speer/Federal/Winchester etc. I've heard a tale about a one-shot drop in NYC with a Speer 124 +P Gold Dot, zum beispiel. But you're gonna be double-tapping with a 9mm anyway, and two doses of that will knock someone down sooner and deader than with a single .45.

.38 Special: Not to be overlooked. Remember that character that rushed into the Capitol Building a few years back? Remember the 2 or 3 guards he tagged? All moving melon shots with a .38. According to scuttlebutt certain of the heavier +P 158 gr. loadings mimic the terminal ballistic effects of a .45. However in practice this is a double-tap deal just like the 9mm.

For snubbies people recommend: 125 gr. +P (if a steel gun); or standard pressure hollowpoint 125gr. or anything else 147 to 158 gr. For 4-in barreled revolvers add 147-158 gr. +P. Limit aluminum-framed revolvers to standard pressure.

Note that for the most part revolvers are indeed more accurate than semi-auto pistols. However revolvers are generally chambered for rounds that are harder to shoot accurately for most people (like magnum rounds) than are semi-autos. Which is why revolvers for the heavier cartridges are used mostly for hunting. Yet a decent .38 wiil stiil do you for a jaunt to the corner store for milk & beer & stuff.

Those in the market should know that modern Taurus revolvers are actually constructed with no more or even fewer per-unit fuckups than current Smith & Wesson offerings. But S&W offers no quality or functional premium corresponding to the extra money spent. If you're not in a bleeding hurry I suggest scouring the local shops for an older used S&W in very good shape. Check for shiny bore, a tight action, slick & crisp trigger action, pinned barrel, and more-or-less intact finish, in that order. If it's still in that blue cardboard box, all the better. They should go for somewhat less than a new Taurus. Commercially-available S&W pieces from the late fifties, sixties, and early seventies will be made of better materials and show more White Man craftmanship and attention-to-detail than can be found anywhere today outside of custom shops, if even there. In contrast, just about any new, modern revolver you will find on a shelf in a store will have a shitty (i.e., heavy & draggy) trigger pull, tooling marks, and so on.

.22: also should be in everyone's collection. Even the good ammo is cheap. Good for basic marksmanship practice, dinner-sized varmints, etc. Note that the Mossad (I know, I know) is rumored to be proficient at dispatching their targets with a head-shot .22. A Ruger Mark II should fit the bill for any of us, Browning Buckmark if you must.

.357, .40, 10 mm, .41, .44: all good rounds for the proper purpose. Demonstrate adequacy of not proficiency in two of the above before you move to one of these five.

If any of you think I'm talking out of my ass here, well maybe I am. But the above is the advice I would give myself if I had the opportunity 20 or so years ago when I got started in this whole gun thing.

As others mentioned, pick your piece, then practice, practice with different flavors of ammo, find the ammo/gun combination that results in YOU getting the best groupings YOU are capable of, and go from there.

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

I followed the publication "gun tests" for years, and they would do side by side comparisons of taurus and SW identical models such as the 22 revolver. the SW were said to be tigher with slightly better fit and finish and usually more accurate.

in most cases not worth the money, like a 38 or whatever, but for a handgun hunter it might make a diff.

as for the abundance of 9mm, that is definitely its strongest point and not to be under-appreciated. so have a 9mm handgun in your stash. meantime, carry the biggest caliber up to 45 your can tote given the circumstances.

[Granddragon36]

OK, lets compare apples to apples. ALL countries that fought natives, as opposed to "civilized countries", went big bore. The Brits with the .577 pistols, the USSA with the .45 Colt, etc. The Germans went with the 9mm, the Swiss with the .30 Luger, etc. Yeah that's fine for full auto use, dumping a 30 round mag of anything, including .22 LR will screw up any one's day. You could use a American 180 full auto (180 rd drum) and shoot a telephone pole in half!

When a 9mm hits bone, like the arm, it stops. That is why cops used to be taught to put an arm over their chest. A .45 breaks the bone. The 9mm is cheaper. OK, you know what your life is worth. If you want to practice or have any cartridge available to shoot, get a 1911-A1 in .45 and conversion kits for .22 LR, 9mm/.38 Super (south of the border), .40 S&W. There are also con kits to convert the 1911 to a rifle.

Best gun to have in a fight? The one you have with you. The .22 in your pocket beats the .50 AE at home.

Gotta go! Talk soon!

theindependentamerican.freeyellow.com - the mag for the REAL life!

[Gruniak]

Yeah, A.E., that's the gist of what I got the few years I subscribed to Gun Tests. Much better than them, though, are the gun forums. I'd ask a question or do a search, and at least ten people who owned the same gun would chime in with their experiences, whereas GT would test just the one of each.

Taurus had started as the maker of cheap crappy knockoffs of S&W. They got marginally better as S&W began their descent, reaching their nadir in the late '90s through about 2002. In that same time period Taurus thanks to new QC & CNC tooling was making pretty decent stuff, with tighter barrel/cylinder gaps, for example, and fewer "oops" type nicks, gouges, & such in the metalworking. The latest S&W offerings, with the laser-etched emblems, seem pretty neat, from my side of the counter glass. Expect atrocious trigger pulls in any modern regular-production revolver: decent trigger pulls require better materials and workmanship than will be found below a certain price level.

Your assessment is correct: for a snubbie to tuck under one's right nut, a Taurus will suffice. However, for a duty or hunting piece, one should go with a Colt or a S&W Custom Shop model. That is, if one were buying a new revolver. I'd still avoid any Taurus auto or any non-Tactical S&W auto.

My preference and recommendation for revolvers is still older S&W's in good shape. I didn't know what old-school American White Man gun craftmanship was, until I obtained a .38 15-1, a late 50's/early 60's model. Christ, the metalwork, action, and finish (Carbonia bluing, which I understand is now an environmental no-no) just cannot be reproduced anymore (on the gun forums, that's attributed merely to general-purpose American industrial entropy. Those of us who graduated to VNN know better). At the time, this was standard day-to-day output. Now, that's custom shop type of work. How many thousands more languish on store shelves beneath newer, more hyped guns?

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Yeah, A.E., that's the gist of what I got the few years I subscribed to Gun Tests. Much better than them, though, are the gun forums. I'd ask a question or do a search, and at least ten people who owned the same gun would chime in with their experiences, whereas GT would test just the one of each.

Taurus had started as the maker of cheap crappy knockoffs of S&W. They got marginally better as S&W began their descent, reaching their nadir in the late '90s through about 2002. In that same time period Taurus thanks to new QC & CNC tooling was making pretty decent stuff, with tighter barrel/cylinder gaps, for example, and fewer "oops" type nicks, gouges, & such in the metalworking. The latest S&W offerings, with the laser-etched emblems, seem pretty neat, from my side of the counter glass. Expect atrocious trigger pulls in any modern regular-production revolver: decent trigger pulls require better materials and workmanship than will be found below a certain price level.

Your assessment is correct: for a snubbie to tuck under one's right nut, a Taurus will suffice. However, for a duty or hunting piece, one should go with a Colt or a S&W Custom Shop model. That is, if one were buying a new revolver. I'd still avoid any Taurus auto or any non-Tactical S&W auto.

My preference and recommendation for revolvers is still older S&W's in good shape. I didn't know what old-school American White Man gun craftmanship was, until I obtained a .38 15-1, a late 50's/early 60's model. Christ, the metalwork, action, and finish (Carbonia bluing, which I understand is now an environmental no-no) just cannot be reproduced anymore (on the gun forums, that's attributed merely to general-purpose American industrial entropy. Those of us who graduated to VNN know better). At the time, this was standard day-to-day output. Now, that's custom shop type of work. How many thousands more languish on store shelves beneath newer, more hyped guns?

I used to shoot with this old cop in the Windy City who carried a colt cobra 357 with a 4" barrell, maybe a little longer, from the early seventies. It was higher quality that anything I had shot before, and I understood it was stock and had a couple thousand rounds through it and had been tuned up only once. It locked and rotated smoothly and effortlessly, and the thing felt like it had a 2 pound trigger pull on single action, maybe five on double, not a long pull either. It's finish was worn but beautiful. I asked him how he was able to carry this as a duty piece and apparently the old timers were allowed more latitude than newbies who more or less were told what to carry. You still see some old codgers there carrying revolvers.

Indeed I have shot plenty new stock revolvers and they are nowhere near the quality of some of the older ones unless they're custom. I mean, the rugers are nice quality guns, but they're obviously designed with heavy triggers.

I offered him a grand for the cobra and he laughed at me and said he might give it up for two.