Vegetarians?

[Alex Linder]

Are there any vegetarians here? What is your experience? How tall are you and how much do you weigh?

This is a serious thread, no bashing or flaming.

[Alex Linder]

What led you to go vegetarian?

[Alex Linder]

Do we have any "raw food" types?

[Alex Linder]

Paul Nison, guy who advocates eating all raw food, interesting interview (audio)

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/QuantumRadio/2009/06/23/The-RAW-LIFE-with-Paul-Nison

David Klein (likely jew) advocates more or less same
http://www.livingnutrition.com/interview.html

Interesting Klein claims he cured himself of colitis by switching from junk food/meat diet to raw food diet, mostly fruit. Nison also eats wholly raw, but says people should eat 70% vegetables.

In some ways, I'm like a liberal mugged by reality. For forty years I ate the way most do, never had a problem, was always happy with high energy. Then I had a rude change, it came over me out of nowhere.

Today I am open to considering things I would have rejected out of hand yesterday, even though the "official" view, the view held by most M.D.s, is that bowel complaints Crohn's/ulcerative colitis, are NOT caused by diet. The official view is that they are an ununderstood mix of genetics, immune system and environment.

Have some experiences of my own to relate, but would like to hear from those successfully pursuing a thought-out diet for an extended time.

[albion]

"I would not mind being born again if I were to be one of an Aryan family, kind to animals, vegetarian (as I have always been from childhood) and not opposed to me ideologically."
http://www.savitridevi.org/koehl_correspondence_12.html

Salubrious Living by Ben Klassen
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/Salubrious_Living.pdf

[Robert Bandanza]

My care for animals. I do not want to take their innocent lives away. I am pro-gun though, but only for protection and sport. I have mentioned this already in the past though. I am sure under the search function, I swear I have already explained all my reasons.

But, I do eat dairy and eggs which makes me lacto-ovo. I have heard it is not too painful when cows are milked and when an egg is eaten, you are not eating a living thing(for the most part).

I sometimes enjoy watching on television when people are attacked by them because it is there way of saying don't fuck with us, we share this earth and they existed before humans. We destroy their living space and or natural habitats. That is why I think mass industrialization can only go so far. It is no longer beneficial. I was then, but not now. I am not anti-human(white), don't get me wrong, it just something I am compassionate with.

[OTPTT]

My care for animals. I do not want to take their innocent lives away. I am pro-gun though, but only for protection and sport. I have mentioned this already in the past though. I am sure under the search function, I swear I have already explained all my reasons.

But, I do eat dairy and eggs which makes me lacto-ovo. I have heard it is not too painful when cows are milked and when an egg is eaten, you are not eating a living thing(for the most part).

I sometimes enjoy watching on television when people are attacked by them because it is there way of saying don't fuck with us, we share this earth and they existed before humans. We destroy their living space and nature. I am not anti-human(white), don't get me wrong, it just something I am compassionate with.

I don't understand why you are here. Animals are a food source. Animals eat other animals or didn't you know that?

As far as Alex's original post and question I've been eating raw broccoli, carrots, cauliflower, radishes, celery, and many different fruits including apples, plums, berries, etc. Sometimes I blend the fruits and combine several of the vitamin-protein supplements together.

Joined a food coop out of Pensacola and when I'm over there I purchase various vitamin and other supplements. The food is to high priced and I'm trying to grow my own although not that successfully.

Eating raw fruits and vegetables just feels like the right thing to do although it doesn't comprise my entire diet.

[Kievsky]

Alex,

Give it a try. I'd also recommend a lot of probiotics like home-made sauerkraut, yogurt you make yourself from raw milk. Check out the book by Sandor Ellix Katz, "Wild Fermentation." Fermented vegetables are said to be superior to raw. The fermentation process gets the probiotic microbes going, and they partially break down the food for you.

Another thing to look into is "nutraceuticals" and "opc3." I'm not saying it's a miracle cure. I'm saying look into it and try it for 3 months and see what happens. If no positive effect, dump it.

Autoimmune diseases like Crohns bedevil medical science. I took pathophysiology, and they call autoimmune disorders "idiopathic," which is a fancy way of saying, "medical science doesn't have a clue." That's why you should try anything -- anything.

So my personal recommendation -- it's a 20 minute gentle qigong routine, downloadable for free:

http://www.falundafa.org/bul/audio-video/audiovideo_video.html

Get the "exercise video" that is "All 5 in succession" 65 MB and it's a .wmv file. The instrucitons are in Chinese but it doesn't matter. Just follow what the Chinese guy does, and keep your feet pointed straight, knees just slightly bent, buttock muscles relaxed as though you are sitting on an invisible bar stool, lean slightly back, shoulders just slightly back, and flex your abdominal muscles just a little, and inhale/exhale in a way that makes your tummy protrude, like a baby breathing.

The idea of qigong is there is a spinning ball inside your abdomen. you wnat to make it spin really fast, and spin it in various directions. This will heat you up and balance your skeleton and restore a deep level of order to your body, curing whatever disease you may have, including autoimmune.

MIght as well try it. 20 minutes a day. If it doesn't work in 3 months, drop it, that's fine. I do this Falun Gong thing 2 or 3 times a week as a warmup to yoga. What happens is I am able to go much deeper into yoga poses thanks to the Falun Gong warmup. Also, it stokes up the qi energy in my abdomen. I really believe in this stuff. On a side note,the Falun Dafa is illegal in China, and the leading practitioners and teachers get jailed, tortured, executed, and their organs get sold. The founder, Li Hongzhi, who now lives in Queens, NYC, has said negative things about race-mixing, and says that gays have "black qi." So they are kind of like China's version of a radical dissident organization.

[Alex Linder]

Can you assholes follow one direction?

No NS/animal rights shit. Start thread somewhere else.

This is for diet discussion only, and polite discussion.

[Alex Linder]

As far as Alex's original post and question I've been eating raw broccoli, carrots, cauliflower, radishes, celery, and many different fruits including apples, plums, berries, etc. Sometimes I blend the fruits and combine several of the vitamin-protein supplements together.

Joined a food coop out of Pensacola and when I'm over there I purchase various vitamin and other supplements. The food is to high priced and I'm trying to grow my own although not that successfully.

Eating raw fruits and vegetables just feels like the right thing to do although it doesn't comprise my entire diet.

Did you used to eat lots of fast food, or processed food, and then make a change? If so, why?

[Alex Linder]

I'd also recommend a lot of probiotics like home-made sauerkraut, yogurt you make yourself from raw milk. Check out the book by Sandor Ellix Katz, "Wild Fermentation." Fermented vegetables are said to be superior to raw. The fermentation process gets the probiotic microbes going, and they partially break down the food for you.

I will try this once I'm in position to, which I'm not now. As for probiotics, I've seen stuff both ways.

Diet and health - I cannot think of any other field in which there are competing claims that are nearly impossible to reconcile or judge between. Politics is the easiest thing in the world compared to diet/health, in my opinion. I can always spot who is lying or pulling punches and why when I read a political article; with diet it is much more difficult to do.


Another thing to look into is "nutraceuticals" and "opc3." I'm not saying it's a miracle cure. I'm saying look into it and try it for 3 months and see what happens. If no positive effect, dump it.

'Nutraceuticals' and 'opc3' are new to me.


Autoimmune diseases like Crohns bedevil medical science. I took pathophysiology, and they call autoimmune disorders "idiopathic," which is a fancy way of saying, "medical science doesn't have a clue." That's why you should try anything -- anything.

Yes. It's frankly amazing to hear a specialist tell you that you can eat/drink whatever you want, diet has nothing to do with it.

"You don't know what causes it...but you know that diet has nothing to do with it." That's my position. Of course, a desperate man will consider anything, and the people saying the MDs are wrong know that, and sell products based on it.


So my personal recommendation -- it's a 20 minute gentle qigong routine, downloadable for free:

http://www.falundafa.org/bul/audio-video/audiovideo_video.html

Get the "exercise video" that is "All 5 in succession" 65 MB and it's a .wmv file. The instrucitons are in Chinese but it doesn't matter. Just follow what the Chinese guy does, and keep your feet pointed straight, knees just slightly bent, buttock muscles relaxed as though you are sitting on an invisible bar stool, lean slightly back, shoulders just slightly back, and flex your abdominal muscles just a little, and inhale/exhale in a way that makes your tummy protrude, like a baby breathing.

The idea of qigong is there is a spinning ball inside your abdomen. you wnat to make it spin really fast, and spin it in various directions. This will heat you up and balance your skeleton and restore a deep level of order to your body, curing whatever disease you may have, including autoimmune.

MIght as well try it. 20 minutes a day. If it doesn't work in 3 months, drop it, that's fine. I do this Falun Gong thing 2 or 3 times a week as a warmup to yoga. What happens is I am able to go much deeper into yoga poses thanks to the Falun Gong warmup. Also, it stokes up the qi energy in my abdomen. I really believe in this stuff. On a side note,the Falun Dafa is illegal in China, and the leading practitioners and teachers get jailed, tortured, executed, and their organs get sold. The founder, Li Hongzhi, who now lives in Queens, NYC, has said negative things about race-mixing, and says that gays have "black qi." So they are kind of like China's version of a radical dissident organization.

Thanks, I might try it.

I'm combining two things here. The thread is about diet, but it's also about crohn's/colitis and possible cures or great-helps for it.

I have read a fair amount over the last two years. At this point I don't trust anything but bodily reactions. I listen respectfully to MDs and read with respect the opinions of the 'alternative-ists' (vegs and others advocating diet changes).

Klein/Nison, both of whom claim to have cured themselves of ulcerative colitis, advocate 100% raw food diet. It is interesting to note that while Nison advocates 70% vegetables, the rest fruit, Klein eats almost entirely fruit with some vegetables. Also interesting to note that both men are short to medium height and extremely thin.

Klein advocates a little exercise early, say jogging. Then eat fruit. Claims your digestion works best early and mid-day. Eat your big meal at mid day. Eat some fruit late. Don't eat anything big after 7pm. Both are very big on not eating big late, claiming humans are diurnal (day-active) and meant to sleep on empty stomach.

[Alex Linder]

Health beliefs I think are solid.

1) Soft drinks are bad for you.

2) Avoiding processed food is a good idea. (Roughly everything in a box, can, bottle.)

3) Drinking almost nothing but water is advisable.

4) Eating less is better than eating more.

[Mike in Denver]

An excellent topic, and I hope it can be kept on track. As I've written in many posts here, I'm an omnivore. I eat meat, and lots of it.

However, when I was about 41, I was persuaded by a woman to try vegetarianism. [Motive: I was a year out of a divorce, and would have joined the Hari Krishnas, if that's what it took to be with a woman.]

Anyway, for two years I followed a strict vegetarian diet. I did continue to eat some cheese and yogurt--nothing else, no meat, no fish, no fowl, no eggs.

I have to admit, for that two years I felt extremely good. I don't really have health problems, but in those two years I had more energy, and was more mentally alert than before or since. I also lost weight, though I wasn't too overweight to start. As you might guess, soon after I broke up with the woman, I went back to eating meat.

There are a few problems with vegetarianism.

* Lack of vitamin B12 - solved by eating some milk products.

* Socially, it can be difficult.

* It can be quite boring. It's easy to grill some meat, bake a potato, cook a vegetable...and have a tasty, interesting meal. Making a vegetable meal twice a day can end up with a string of very dull meals. Interesting vegetarian meals usually require a good deal of preparation and cooking.

---

Raw food. This is a really fascinating topic. There are a lot of sites promoting this, though the ones I've found are all strict vegan. There used to be a site or two promoting raw food including raw meat, but I think those sites are gone. Not to move off topic, but I've always eaten and enjoyed raw beef, lamb, eggs, shellfish, tuna, and salmon.

I'm assuming that a raw diet would exclude grains, at least cooked grains, and beans. Also such a diet probably excludes any dairy including yogurt and that might eventually cause a problem with vitamin B12.

---

One thing is for sure. I'm guessing a full grown man could go on a vegetarian, vegan, or even raw food vegan diet for a year or so without a problem. Try it and see what happens. Sure would save money.

Mike

[Alex Linder]

What I'm trying, in order to establish more solid beliefs - more principles. As Eric Thomson says, "principles protect people."

- exercise first thing - 2mi walk, for instance.
- eat fruit - 35 grapes or so, maybe a bananas, peaches + drink water or Gatorade*
- eat big meal mid-day, noon-4pm. include meat for energy. maybe chicken breast or pork chops, hard-boiled eggs, but stay away from cereals, breads, altho do eat baked potatoes. eat steamed or raw cauliflower, broccoli, tomatoes, other vegs
- eat some fruit late, maybe apples

It might be possible to get the energy meat provides from veg/fruit alone, but I have not found this myself. Going without meat for days leaves me utterly exhausted. However, I am not a cook, and there might be those who can prepare properly mixed vegetarian dishes that provide the energy one needs. Those with my problem already have low energy from continual drainage of nutrients, and anything that takes it away must be avoided absolutely.

Although the not-eating-late principle seems fairly established, as you can find it everywhere when you study, I have found it can cause insomnia. But my ordinary course was to eat heavy late at night during my night owl years. So I'm going to keep up and see how it goes over time.

* I don't think Gatorade is good for average people, altho it's nowhere near as bad as soft drinks. For colitis types with continual diarrhea, it might provide some help in restoring salts and electrolytes. Gatorade is expensive, and there might be homemade versions that are cheaper - ie, mix some salt and sugar with regular water.

[cillian]

Health beliefs I think are solid.

1) Soft drinks are bad for you.

2) Avoiding processed food is a good idea. (Roughly anything in a box, can, bottle.)

3) Drinking almost nothing but water is advisable.

Vegetarians think that if too much meat is bad for you that no meat at all is goo. Well, they are half right, eating more fruits and vegetables is a good idea, but eliminating meat leads to other health problems.

Vitamin B1, B2,B3,B6, & B12 deficiency which leads to immune deficiency and chronic fatigue.

Iron deficiency, which leads to chronic fatigue, irritability, immune deficiency and lightheadedness.

And protein deficiency, which leads to physical weakness and immune deficiency.


Eating a healthy amount of meat, and more fruit and veg is the answer.

[Robert Bandanza]

Gatorade is bad on the teeth. It is almost like drinking soda.

[Alex Linder]

I have to admit, for that two years I felt extremely good. I don't really have health problems, but in those two years I had more energy, and was more mentally alert than before or since. I also lost weight, though I wasn't too overweight to start. As you might guess, soon after I broke up with the woman, I went back to eating meat.

I've heard similar claims from others. I have personally observed a friend become a vegetarian and grow extremely skinny, sickly and weak. Myself, a couple days without meat and I can barely move. I come from a meat background, and like you, although I love fruits and vegetables too and always have, meat has no substitute. My interest is not in eliminating meat but in verifying claims about bad meat vs good meat.


There are a few problems with vegetarianism.

* Lack of vitamin B12 - solved by eating some milk products.

This is another thing I'm trying to verify: whether dairy is actually good for one or bad. The vegans/fruitarians I mentioned are wholly against dairy, every bit as much, or perhaps even more, than meat. The claims about probiotics in yogurt I am learning toward thinking bogus, in light of what I've read. Still open to being persuaded.


* It can be quite boring. It's easy to grill some meat, bake a potato, cook a vegetable...and have a tasty, interesting meal. Making a vegetable meal twice a day can end up with a string of very dull meals. Interesting vegetarian meals usually require a good deal of preparation and cooking.


Totally agree. I simply can't give up potatoes and meat. I love them both. I love vegetables and fruit too. Only thing I've really never been able to develop a taste for, altho I can eat it if need be, is lettuce and salad.

Desperation has forced me to look into things I would not have considered. I definitely need to learn how to make some salads, with or without lettuce, that's one area I don't have any background in. I am able to cook pretty much everything else.


Raw food. This is a really fascinating topic. There are a lot of sites promoting this, though the ones I've found are all strict vegan. There used to be a site or two promoting raw food including raw meat, but I think those sites are gone. Not to move off topic, but I've always eaten and enjoyed raw beef, lamb, eggs, shellfish, tuna, and salmon.

Me too. Nison is a very brusque, Bud White-type NYC guy who ate nothing but pizza. Now he's a Florida guy who eats nothing but vegetables. I notice that he is a tiny guy, and from my very limited experience not eating meat, I think I see why. I can believe you can live successfully avoiding meat, but it will make you skinny as hell. And like you, vegs can't duplicate meat's taste. If you have an acceptable level of health and energy, then it becomes a matter of taste and style. I don't think the extra health benefit one gets from avoiding meat entirely outweighs the delights meat provides. But I do think it's wise to be selective in eating meat, and not too eat it too much or too often. The other thing I've noticed from going days without eating meat is that when I return to it, the feeling is glorious. So I think the real lesson here is not to overeat and become sated. Undereat, don't overeat. Fast sometimes. Or meat-fast. Then come back and rejoice. Now, Nison and Klein claim that cooked meat is horrible for you; that cooked meat has very little nutritive value; that it sits and putrifies in your gut. I think they overstate, but I don't know for sure. Most of my relatives ate all kinds of meat their entire lives, lived robustly for ninety+ years, then died falling down stairs. I'm open to evidence on all these claims.


I'm assuming that a raw diet would exclude grains, at least cooked grains, and beans. Also such a diet probably excludes any dairy including yogurt and that might eventually cause a problem with vitamin B12.

These guys advocate nuts, but only certain kinds prepared certain ways. They are very much against rice. They say it has no nutritional value and just ferments in the gut, causing bloating. I have seen the claim elsewhere, altho more often that white rice is bad, brown rice is good.



One thing is for sure. I'm guessing a full grown man could go on a vegetarian, vegan, or even raw food vegan diet for a year of so without a problem. Try it and see what happens. Sure would save money.

Ha, yes and no. Produce is now to where pretty much any substantial fruit, say apple or tomato, is $1 apiece. Funny discrepancies, though. Actual Kirksville prices. You can buy the same amount of blueberries at Aldi for .99c and at Hy-Vee for 3.99. Melons are .99 and 2.59. Potatoes are 8 russet baking for 2.69 vs 4.00.

Here's what I think the deal is.

If you cut out the coke and the fast food (I don't agree it is junk food, necessarily), if you eat less than you normally do, if you eat lots of fruits and vegetables, and if you eat meat too, but less and not shitty processed meat -- you should drop weight quickly. You will begin to understand why Europeans are shaped the way they are, and Americans are shaped the way we are.

[Alex Linder]

Gatorade is bad on the teeth. It is almost like drinking soda.

It has a good amount of sugar.

[Alex Linder]

Vegetarians think that if too much meat is bad for you that no meat at all is goo. Well, they are half right, eating more fruits and vegetables is a good idea, but eliminating meat leads to other health problems.

Vitamin B1, B2,B3,B6, & B12 deficiency which leads to immune deficiency and chronic fatigue.

Iron deficiency, which leads to chronic fatigue, irritability, immune deficiency and lightheadedness.

And protein deficiency, which leads to physical weakness and immune deficiency.

Eating a healthy amount of meat, and more fruit and veg is the answer.

What kind of meat?

What time of day to eat it?

The vegan/fruitists are big on "combining" fruits, say, for complementary and ideal digestion. I have not read enough to know precisely what they mean, or what they advocate.

Not all meat is the same.

[Steve B]

Are there any vegetarians here? What is your experience? How tall are you and how much do you weigh?

This is a serious thread, no bashing or flaming.

Tried the vegetarian route many moons ago just as a lark. I always like to try new things. Like one time I decided I wanted to bench press 300 pounds. Accomplished the feat after many months of weight training but my shoulder has never been the same since.

Anyway, started out at about 210 lbs, I'm 6-3. Stayed on the veg diet for about 4-5 months. Lost weight and went down to 190, felt weak, got sick. Gave it up.

Friend of mine who was a nutritionist explained it to me like this: It's not the veg diet that fucked me up. Humans can subsist and even thrive on a vegetarian diet. It was the vegetables themselves that were the problem. Store bought veggies contain no trace minerals. The body doesn't manufacture trace minerals and it's something you really need for optimum health. You must get them through dietary intake or you get sick and then die.

Store bought veggies are brought to you by agribusiness. The stuff they sell you looks good but the problem is they contain little or no trace minerals having been leached from the soil a million crops ago. They dump artificial fertilizers in the soil that is petroleum based and contains the N. P. K. trio.(nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium). That's it, that's pretty much all your getting is those three trace minerals when what you really need is about 50. Trace mineral deficiency is part of the explanation of the vast decline in health that our society is facing.

A lot of people think they can get the trace minerals they need through supplements(pills). Nope, those pill trace minerals are literally mined from the great Salt Lake. That's right, dey rocks. Dug out of the ground using bulldozers, excavators and dump trucks and then hauled to the factory where they are processed into pill form. The problem with the pills is the human body doesn't absorb these inorganic sourced rock based minerals very well. The particle size of the minerals being too big. Plant based minerals is the key. Plants change the organic minerals taken from the soil into Colloidal form. Sort of a pre digestive process. These Colloidal minerals are extremely small particles and apparently the absorption rate is close to 90%.

So how to get these plant based minerals into your system? Welp, a good local farmer who has rich soil, intelligent crop rotation and uses compost piles instead of chemical petro based fertilizers would be nice but for those of us who don't have that option there are plant based trace mineral supplements that can be purchased. I recommend that if you're going to go the veggie route. If you don't and simply rely on big chain store bought shit for your veg diet you're gonna die a slow death.

Hope this helps.

[Dan Allan]

If you give up meat, you're gonna have a hard time getting sufficient protein. Most people already don't get enough. Doubly so if you also give up milk and eggs. Skinless chicken breasts and tuna are probably the two healthiest kinds of meat there are. High protein, low saturated fat and good amounts of healthy fats. Before you think about cutting meat out of your diet, you should really think about cutting processed white bread, sugar and rice, and processed foods in general. That's the real reason for obesity in America.

[Alex Linder]

Tried the vegetarian route many moons ago just as a lark. I always like to try new things. Like one time I decided I wanted to bench press 300 pounds. Accomplished the feat after many months of weight training but my shoulder has never been the same since.

Anyway, started out at about 210 lbs, I'm 6-3. Stayed on the veg diet for about 4-5 months. Lost weight and went down to 190, felt weak, got sick. Gave it up.

Friend of mine who was a nutritionist explained it to me like this: It's not the veg diet that fucked me up. Humans can subsist and even thrive on a vegetarian diet. It was the vegetables themselves that were the problem. Store bought veggies contain no trace minerals. The body doesn't manufacture trace minerals and it's something you really need for optimum health. You must get them through dietary intake or you get sick and then die.

Store bought veggies are brought to you by agribusiness. The stuff they sell you looks good but the problem is they contain little or no trace minerals having been leached from the soil a million crops ago. They dump artificial fertilizers in the soil that is petroleum based and contains the N. P. K. trio.(nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium). That's it, that's pretty much all your getting is those three trace minerals when what you really need is about 50. Trace mineral deficiency is part of the explanation of the vast decline in health that our society is facing.

A lot of people think they can get the trace minerals they need through supplements(pills). Nope, those pill trace minerals are literally mined from the great Salt Lake. That's right, dey rocks. Dug out of the ground using bulldozers, excavators and dump trucks and then hauled to the factory where they are processed into pill form. The problem with the pills is the human body doesn't absorb these inorganic sourced rock based minerals very well. The particle size of the minerals being too big. Plant based minerals is the key. Plants change the organic minerals taken from the soil into Colloidal form. Sort of a pre digestive process. These Colloidal minerals are extremely small particles and apparently the absorption rate is close to 90%.

So how to get these plant based minerals into your system? Welp, a good local farmer who has rich soil, intelligent crop rotation and uses compost piles instead of chemical petro based fertilizers would be nice but for those of us who don't have that option there are plant based trace mineral supplements that can be purchased. I recommend that if you're going to go the veggie route. If you don't and simply rely on big chain store bought shit for your veg diet you're gonna die a slow death.

Hope this helps.

Interesting, Steve, but this is precisely the sort of information I have no way to make heads or tails of.

I have noticed produce here in recent years has been more expensive and shabbier looking, especially in the comparatively high-end HyVee. I have not seen anyone claim what you do. I have seen people claim that cooking kills most of the nutritional value in vegetables, and that even juicing kills value if you dont drink juice immediately. Don't know what to make of it.

Even the farmer's markets now seem full of people trying to make big bucks. They charge prices nearly as high as the stores.

Just don't know what to make of it.

What about multivitamins? Are they any good?

Yes, I've driven by the mining in the Great Salt Lake many times, it's the salt concern that does it.

[Alex Linder]

If you give up meat, you're gonna have a hard time getting sufficient protein.

Vegs will say you can get all you need from nuts.


Before you think about cutting meat out of your diet, you should really think about cutting processed white bread, sugar and rice, and processed foods in general. That's the real reason for obesity in America.

Already avoid most of those, never been obese or even really fat.

I do advise reading Atkins, I learned a lot from him. He emaphsizes how bad coke is for you. I knew it was bad for teeth, but he points out a number of other problems, particularly leaching minerals out of bones. That's already a problem with colitis types. I can say that quitting coke is a very great help in maintaining teeth quality.

If you want to lose weight, not drinking coke and not eating fast food are probably the quickest ways to do it. I was never a big eater like so many in the midwest, so I never had a problem base to start from. Hell, my problem now is keeping weight on. But drinking coke and eating sugar is not the way to do that. Atkins is very firm that processed sugar and flour, inserted into most processed foods, is responsible for the major American health problems. Not fat. Not meat. Processed foods stuffed with sugar and white flour.

[Mike in Denver]

Alex,

Some advice, though I admit people are different and this advice, though appropriate for me, may not apply to anyone else.

It appears that you are trying to come up with a set of principles that include diet. Well, I have found that...

Strict rules are easier to follow than lenient rules. Setting guidelines, goals, and objectives, for me, usually ends up with something that falls apart within two weeks. But, I've never had trouble following a list of strict, written-down rules. It doesn't mean that errors can't be corrected. It just means that if a rule is to be changed, the changing should be somewhat formal.

Or, this may only apply to me.

Mike

[Alex Linder]

Alex,

Some advice, though I admit people are different and this advice, though appropriate for me, may not apply to anyone else.

It appears that you are trying to come up with a set of principles that include diet. Well, I have found that...

Strict rules are easier to follow than lenient rules. Setting guidelines, goals and objectives, for me, usually ends up with something that falls apart within two weeks. But, I've never had trouble following a list of strict, written-down rules. It doesn't mean that errors can't be corrected. It just means that if a rule is to be changed the changing should be somewhat formal.

Or, this may only apply to me.

Mike

Thanks.

I'm not looking for advice. Health is one of those things almost everybody thinks he's an expert on. One reason I have scarcely broached the subject since I took ill is that I don't want to hear advice.

What I do want to hear is experience.

Probably I should have titled thread differently. I'm looking for an open-ended discussion of diet, and what you have personally found. My own observations, naturally, will be c/c-related, but in the context of overall health, trying to find the best main way for Whites to eat.

You're probably right about strict rules. It's easier to say, "Don't eat after 7pm" than "Don't eat late." Gives you something to focus on.

I know the Creators, viz White Man's Bible, advocate nothing but fruit/veg eating, I think? Would be interesting if we have any Creators to hear what precisely is the C diet and whether they've followed it and to what results.

[Alex Linder]

I can't give you a one size fits all answer to the question, especially considering medical conditions. For example if someone had anemia I would recommend beef and liver since both are high in iron, but these would be "bad foods" for someone with congestive heart failure since both are high in saturated fat and cholesterol.

As far as your condition, I would recommend white fish (flounder, cod, haddock, etc) since they are easy on the stomach, and maybe boiled chicken.
you could get away with having one fillet of it a day.

As far as vegetables, I would recommend the onion family (including and especially garlic), which are all known to fight ulcers. Google "h pylori garlic onions".

And dark green vegetables such as cabbage and broccoli, which are alkali, thus lowering the acidity in your digestive tract making it easier for your body to heal.

Could also look up "old robert's formula" which is a few herbs that are used to counter stomach/GI problems.



You should also understand that there is a difference between a general "healthy diet" and a diet geared to a medical problem.

Let me say this once, and then I'm just going to delete posts.

I'm not looking for advice.

I'm looking for your experience.

You don't know the specifics of my condition and you don't have, until you prove otherwise, the expertise to offer advice.

More fantasy shit, don't do it.

Put your posts in the form of what you have observed or experience yourself, or what you have heard.

[Alex Linder]

I can't give you a one size fits all answer to the question, especially considering medical conditions. For example if someone had anemia I would recommend beef and liver since both are high in iron, but these would be "bad foods" for someone with congestive heart failure since both are high in saturated fat and cholesterol.

As far as your condition, I would recommend white fish (flounder, cod, haddock, etc) since they are easy on the stomach, and maybe boiled chicken.
you could get away with having one fillet of it a day.

As far as vegetables, I would recommend the onion family (including and especially garlic), which are all known to fight ulcers. Google "h pylori garlic onions".

The reason I want to avoid me and my problems is precisely this type of post.

I don't have gastric problems. I don't have stomach ulcers. Thus, the entire post is based on a false assumption.

It's just like asserting that X is a jew without establishing the fact. Absolutely useless.

[cillian]

Let me say this once, and then I'm just going to delete posts.

I'm not looking for advice.

I'm looking for your experience.

You don't know the specifics of my condition and you don't have, until you prove otherwise, the expertise to offer advice.

More fantasy shit, don't do it.

Put your posts in the form of what you have observed or experience yourself, or what you have heard.
My mother had ulcerative colitis, my aunt had crohn's disease (which are both very similar), I was talking to my mother about this earlier today after reading your post and this is what she told me. They have both been in remission for over 20 years. So...

[cillian]

I'm combining two things here. The thread is about diet, but it's also about crohn's/colitis and possible cures or great-helps for it.
I must have taken this out of context and assumed you were still having difficulties.

My apologies.

[Alex Linder]

I must have taken this out of context and assumed you were still having difficulties.

My apologies.

Ulcerative colitis is not a gastric problem, it is purely a colon problem. Crohn's can occur in the stomach, as it can affect any part of the digestive tract.

Put it in the form, as you did above, of "my X or Y had A or B, here is what she said about it."

Just don't act like you're an expert. Think about it. I've had this problem for two years. The chance I know LESS than you is probably about -200%. Not to be obnoxious.

What I want to hear is either personal experiences or suggestions, not some monkey pretending to be doctor, it drives me absolutely insane. Just like these clowns who are "white warriors," playing doctor is no different. Get that authoritativeness out of your tone. Even the MDs admit they can't cure it. The alternatives who claim they can are mostly selling supplements.

Just tell me what you know first hand or what you've heard.

[Alex Linder]

My mother had ulcerative colitis, my aunt had crohn's disease (which are both very similar), I was talking to my mother about this earlier today after reading your post and this is what she told me. They have both been in remission for over 20 years. So...

Ok, this interesting.

What did your mother say?

What did your aunt say?

Don't assert their advice as absolutes; if there's one thing that two minutes of reseach reveals, it's that every single possible combo of diet, pills and life changes is asserted as a cure for this or that.

[Steve B]

Interesting, Steve, but this is precisely the sort of information I have no way to make heads or tails of.

Think of it this way. Everything we need to live comes from the ground. Good nutrition with all the vitamins, minerals, etc comes from the ground. Your steak came from the ground. A steer ate grass and corn from the ground to sustain itself and provide you with medium rare. You can't get the good stuff nutrition wise with shitty ground. Most of the food we eat is from shitty ground, shitty ground that has been leeched of most of it's nutritional value because of over planting.

To make up for this shitty ground and the burgeoning mass of eaters, petro-chemical company's sell a chemical fertilizer to farmers(our food industry is closely related to the oil industry btw) which they apply to their crops and it grows great. I have seen 5,000 acre lemon orchards in the Imperial Vally of California(desert) growing and thriving in a place they never would if not for the use of chemical fertilizers.

The problem is the chemical fertilizers don't turn shitty ground into good ground. There is just enough there to make the crops look good. In the case of the desert lemon crops I'm sure they're chock full of vitamin C but if that real important other stuff(trace minerals) isn't there, then it isn't there for you when you eat it.

Imo a strictly vegetarian diet using food grown through the use of chemical fertilizers would be a health risk. At least if your eating a balanced diet of meat, fruits, vegetables, bread, occasional dairy products, you'll get some of the good stuff that the animal(protien) or fruit(vitamin c in the desert lemons) produces itself and can give you. Strictly veg, no way.

As someone previously said, people are different and react to different health approaches so I'm only speaking generally and not to your specific health concerns.

[cillian]

Ulcerative colitis is not a gastric problem, it is purely a colon problem. Crohn's can occur in the stomach, as it can affect any part of the digestive tract.

Put it in the form, as you did above, of "my X or Y had A or B, here is what she said about it."

Just don't act like you're an expert. Think about it. I've had this problem for two years. The chance I know LESS than you is probably about -200%. Not to be obnoxious.

What I want to hear is either personal experiences or suggestions, not some monkey pretending to be doctor, it drives me absolutely insane. Just like these clowns who are "white warriors," playing doctor is no different. Get that authoritativeness out of your tone. Even the MDs admit they can't cure it. The alternatives who claim they can are mostly selling supplements.

Just tell me what you know first hand or what you've heard.

The gi tract goes all the way to the end. Many of the problems are quite similar.

I have been a bit of a fitness buff since I was a kid, so people often ask me nutrition or fitness related questions and I guess I've taken on a tone that I know what I'm talking about. But you are right about probably knowing more about this than me. So sorry for that.

I've never had digestive problems so I know nothing first hand.

My mother swears by this "old roberts formula" she said 20 minutes after taking it she could eat and without it she couldn't. She didn't get the capsules that they sell, but got the herbs in some herbal shop and made tea from them. She said the slippery elm was especially good and continued taking just that after she went into remission if she felt it start to act up again.

As far as the cabbage, she had a juicer and would juice raw cabbage and drink it, it was vile to drink, I had some of it once, just to be sympathetic, it's the kind of thing you pinch your nose and chug down. She said that was very helpful too when she first started to try remedies, for the reason I gave earlier.

[Alex Linder]

Think of it this way. Everything we need to live comes from the ground. Good nutrition with all the vitamins, minerals, etc comes from the ground. Your steak came from the ground. A steer ate grass and corn from the ground to sustain itself and provide you with medium rare. You can't get the good stuff nutrition wise with shitty ground. Most of the food we eat is from shitty ground, shitty ground that has been leeched of most of it's nutritional value because of over planting.

To make up for this shitty ground and the burgeoning mass of eaters, petro-chemical company's sell a chemical fertilizer to farmers(our food industry is closely related to the oil industry btw) which they apply to their crops and it grows great. I have seen 5,000 acre lemon orchards in the Imperial Vally of California(desert) growing and thriving in a place they never would if not for the use of chemical fertilizers.

The problem is the chemical fertilizers don't turn shitty ground into good ground. There is just enough there to make the crops look good. In the case of the desert lemon crops I'm sure they're chock full of vitamin C but if that real important other stuff(trace minerals) isn't there, then it isn't there for you when you eat it.

Imo a strictly vegetarian diet using food grown through the use of chemical fertilizers would be a health risk. At least if your eating a balanced diet of meat, fruits, vegetables, bread, occasional dairy products, you'll get some of the good stuff that the animal(protien) or fruit(vitamin c in the desert lemons) produces itself and can give you. Strictly veg, no way.

As someone previously said, people are different and react to different health approaches so I'm only speaking generally and not to your specific health concerns.

Ok...makes some sense. But how many people feel a real problem from lack of trace minerals? I don't see that as a problem compared to obesity.

If you do think you have a trace-minerals problem, how do you rectify it? Just by buying good produce from good farmer? You don't take any supplements? A multi-vitamin doesn't help?

[Dan Allan]

Vegs will say you can get all you need from nuts.

This is true, but you have to eat a lot. Nuts are great though because they're mostly healthy fats that raise the good cholesterol and lower the bad. Beans are a good source too. It's a lot easier if you can have eggs or dairy of some kind. Cottage cheese is an excellent food, as well as egg whites. The stereotype of the vegetarian or vegan as stick-thin is not based on nothing. I have seen all-vegan bodybuilders, though. It is possible.

Already avoid most of those, never been obese or even really fat.

I do advise reading Atkins, I learned a lot from him. He emaphsizes how bad coke is for you. I knew it was bad for teeth, but he points out a number of other problems, particularly leaching minerals out of bones. That's already a problem with colitis types. I can say that quitting coke is a very great help in maintaining teeth quality.

If you want to lose weight, not drinking coke and not eating fast food are probably the quickest ways to do it. I was never a big eater like so many in the midwest, so I never had a problem base to start from. Hell, my problem now is keeping weight on. But drinking coke and eating sugar is not the way to do that. Atkins is very firm that processed sugar and flour, inserted into most processed foods, is responsible for the major American health problems. Not fat. Not meat. Processed foods stuffed with sugar and white flour.

Atkins has many good points, the only problem is most people don't understand what he really is saying. The reason he promotes the low-carb diet is that most carbohydrate sources are garbage. Doughnuts, wonderbread, etc. That stuff is quickly turned into excess fat by the body. Same thing with soda, the body has no use for all that sugar so it becomes fat. If you eat complex carbs, e.g. brown bread, brown rice, etc. it makes your body do "work" to break down the carbohydrates and turn them into energy, so little or none is stored as fat.

[Alex Linder]

My mother swears by this "old roberts formula" she said 20 minutes after taking it she could eat and without it she couldn't. She didn't get the capsules that they sell, but got the herbs in some herbal shop and made tea from them. She said the slippery elm was especially good and continued taking just that after she went into remission if she felt it start to act up again.

Hmm. Haven't heard of that formula.


As far as the cabbage, she had a juicer and would juice raw cabbage and drink it, it was vile to drink, I had some of it once, just to be sympathetic, it's the kind of thing you pinch your nose and chug down. She said that was very helpful too when she first started to try remedies, for the reason I gave earlier.

Ok, I have seen others make that specific claim, about juicing in general, and cabbage juice in particular.

Thanks for the information, I appreciate it.

[Steve B]

Ok...makes some sense. But how many people feel a real problem from lack of trace minerals? I don't see that as a problem compared to obesity.

If you do think you have a trace-minerals problem, how do you rectify it? Just by buying good produce from good farmer? You don't take any supplements? A multi-vitamin doesn't help?

I take this shit. It works for me. Got all kinds of energy from it, didn't require as much sleep, the grey hair I was getting around my temples turned brown and I wake up in the morning with a hard on a cat couldn't scratch.


http://www.utopiasilver.com/products/supplements/liquid_life_complete.htm

[Alex Linder]

Should also be noted, c/c comes in a range of severity. It is amazing what all is advocated as ways to ease it, if not cure it. Never was interested in health or had reason to be until two years ago. Since I personally didn't eat a radical diet, always had more energy than the average person, when the c did develop, I was tempted to believe the official MD view (combo of genes/environment/immune system) rather than the alternative (diet). Still, anyone can become a little healthier by doing some simple things, as I've done. Can't hurt. Can help.

One think I personally have found, my experience, is that I can eat pretty much anything and it doesn't seem to affect the underlying condition at all. Some advocate not eating broccoli/cauliflower. They say low-fiber cuts gas/bloating and makes it easy on your system, but those give me no problem whatsoever. Have no gas/bloating at all, and never have. Another theory is that it's bad flora multiplying in your gut; yeast; product of sugar and undigested stuff. That might be the case for some, but I do not believe it is the case for me.

[Alex Linder]

I take this shit. It works for me. Got all kinds of energy from it, didn't require as much sleep, the grey hair I was getting around my temples turned brown and I wake up in the morning with a hard on a cat couldn't scratch.


http://www.utopiasilver.com/products/supplements/liquid_life_complete.htm

Well, that's a powerful recommendation.

Thanks, Steve.

[Mike in Denver]

OK, sticking to personal experience.

The only thing I can add about my time as a vegetarian, is that my weight loss continued even though I was still drinking six or eight beers a week. For me, this would be good information. Also, probably because I was eating cheese and whole milk, the weight loss was slow and not severe like you see with vegans.

The only other diet I've ever been on was the Atkins diet. The only time in my life I've ever been noticeably overweight was when I around 29 to 30 years old. I wasn't so observant then, so I can't tell you why I was overweight for these couple of years and no other time in my life.

The Atkins diet caused me to lose weight like a meth-head. I felt good on the diet, but it was a twitchy kind of feeling good--sort of like a constant two-cups-of coffee-too-much feeling good. Of course, I stayed on the induction phase of the diet for the four months I was on the diet. That is not recommended, but most fools do it. You can't drink beer on the diet, but you knew that.

--

Mike Mazzone was a strict fruitarian, and that's about the strictist diet, short of breatairianism, that anyone could follow. Dial him up, and ask him.

Mike

[Alex Linder]

OK, sticking to personal experience.

The only thing I can add about my time as a vegetarian, is that my weight loss continued even though I was still drinking six or eight beers a week. For me, this would be good information. Also, probably because I was eating cheese and whole milk, the weight loss was slow and not severe like you see with vegans.

Makes sense. I don't see how anyone eating primarily vegetables could be fat.


The only other diet I've ever been on was the Atkins diet. The only time in my life I've ever been noticeably overweight was when I around 29 to 30 years old. I wasn't so observant then, so I can't tell you why I was overweight for these couple of years and no other time in my life.

The Atkins diet caused me to lose weight like a meth-head. I felt good on the diet, but it was a twitchy kind of feeling good--sort of like a constant two-cups-of coffee-too-much feeling good. Of course, I stayed on the induction phase of the diet for the four months I was on the diet. That is not recommended, but most fools do it. You can't drink beer on the diet, but you knew that.

Never done it, but read about it. I know it's rigorous. I suspect a lot of people who claim they're on it don't actually follow it. But I know one person who followed it successfully. I found Atkins quite believable as as writer.


Mike Mazzone was a strict fruitarian, and that's about the strictist diet, short of breatairianism, that anyone could follow. Dial him up, and ask him.


Good point, had forgot - he is a Creator.

[albion]

Salubrious Living (forum)
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3&mforum=library

[OTPTT]

Did you used to eat lots of fast food, or processed food, and then make a change? If so, why?

When I was younger I ate a lot of fast food but have always preferred meals that can be purchased at Morrison's or their other restaurant Piccadilly. That is when I am forced to eat out when traveling. I avoid fast food restaurants because they have 65 IQ muds that fail to perform proper hygiene. I don't need to risk my health and don't care to support businesses that employ mud staffs.

I have also been guilty of eating frozen convenience food such as Lean Cuisine and the like but am trying to get away from that stuff. I really didn't have the room to prepare meals until I started to de-clutter and simplify my life. Recently purchased a very nice Farberware stainless steel cook set as I had few such items necessary for meal preparation.

My eating raw vegetables now is due to my getting older and feeling that I need all of the good nutrition that I can get which also includes the supplements I mentioned above. Cooking vegetables causes a loss of vitamins and nutrients whereas eating them raw doesn't. When I don't eat raw veggies I try and steam them only. Cooking them in a pot of water is a last resort.

While out earlier I went by the vegetable market up the street and purchase some more celery and a pack of broccoli. I had been eating already packed broccoli from the grocery store but will see if the straight from the ground version works for me as well.

Raw celery, broccoli, carrots, cucumbers, onions, radishes, and tomatoes are my favorites. Will likely add to these as I find others I enjoy. Have some squash but haven't tried it raw yet.

I'll list the supplements I take a little later as I've got to go take care of some family business in a few minutes.

[Alex Linder]

Salubrious Living (forum)
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3&mforum=library

Thanks. Going to read this and see what the old fellow said.

[Alex Linder]

When I was younger I ate a lot of fast food but have always preferred meals that can be purchased at Morrison's or their other restaurant Piccadilly. That is when I am forced to eat out when traveling. I avoid fast food restaurants because they have 65 IQ muds that fail to perform proper hygiene. I don't need to risk my health and don't care to support businesses that employ mud staffs.

I have also been guilty of eating frozen convenience food such as Lean Cuisine and the like but am trying to get away from that stuff. I really didn't have the room to prepare meals until I started to de-clutter and simplify my life. Recently purchased a very nice Farberware stainless steel cook set as I had few such items necessary for meal preparation.

My eating raw vegetables now is due to my getting older and feeling that I need all of the good nutrition that I can get which also includes the supplements I mentioned above. Cooking vegetables causes a loss of vitamins and nutrients whereas eating them raw doesn't. When I don't eat raw veggies I try and steam them only. Cooking them in a pot of water is a last resort.

While out earlier I went by the vegetable market up the street and purchase some more celery and a pack of broccoli. I had been eating already packed broccoli from the grocery store but will see if the straight from the ground version works for me as well.

Raw celery, broccoli, carrots, cucumbers, onions, radishes, and tomatoes are my favorites. Will likely add to these as I find others I enjoy. Have some squash but haven't tried it raw yet.

I'll list the supplements I take a little later as I've got to go take care of some family business in a few minutes.

What you say tracks with what I've read, specifically the loss of nutrients through all preparation but raw and steaming. I would have to say raw asparagus is better than anything, but if you don't garden it, it's not the same bought. I find it difficult to eat much unsoftened broccoli or cauliflower. Perhaps it's just a matter of practice. The raw foods crowd has many recipes, and different sauces for making their dishes more palatable.

[Mike in Denver]

Note: I have no idea how to multi-quote post, so I'm going to have to fake it. There is a multi-quote button but it doesn't do a thing for me. Don't reply to this. It's off topic here. I'll figure it out.

All quotes from OTPTT:

"I have also been guilty of eating frozen convenience food such as Lean Cuisine and the like..."

The danger with this stuff is it can be so damn cheap. I mistakenly wrote that at least vegetarianism would be cheap. Alex corrected me, and he is right. Hell, bell peppers can go for $1.00 each, these days. Pure junk food, though, can be ridiculous. One supermarket in Denver this week is selling Banquet TV dinners for 99 cents each. Thirty of these would be $29.70. Add pocket meals at 50 cents each (another special, this week) and you've got a months food for just under $45. I prepare almost all my own food, and have trouble staying under $200 a month. If things get tight, it may be pure junk food for lots of folks.

"Cooking vegetables causes a loss of vitamins and nutrients whereas eating them raw doesn't. When I don't eat raw veggies I try and steam them only. Cooking them in a pot of water is a last resort."

I'm willing to believe this, but is there any engineering data to back it up. It makes sense, and it's written everywhere, but has anyone actually done the lab tests.

"Raw celery, broccoli, carrots, cucumbers, onions, radishes, and tomatoes are my favorites. Will likely add to these as I find others I enjoy. Have some squash but haven't tried it raw yet."

Interesting. It would be a change for me, but I'd be willing to try it. Now, other than the obvious salad vegetables, (lettuce, tomatoes, cucumbers, olives, onions) the vegetables I eat are cooked, usually just by boiling water. I think I'll be giving raw vegetables a try, as well.

And just in case someone is having problems with salads, salads don't have to have lettuce. Tomatoes, cucumbers, olives, and onions, dressed with olive oil, lemon juice, and sea salt is a great salad--lettuce is not necessary.

Mike

[cillian]

"Cooking vegetables causes a loss of vitamins and nutrients whereas eating them raw doesn't. When I don't eat raw veggies I try and steam them only. Cooking them in a pot of water is a last resort."

I'm willing to believe this, but is there any engineering data to back it up. It makes sense, and it's written everywhere, but has anyone actually done the lab tests.

Yes, and you can get this info from various nutrition sites. The vitamins most susceptible to loss will be B and C, since they are water soluble.

one example

Calories in Broccoli
Frozen, Chopped, Cooked, Boiled, Drained, Without Salt
1 cup
Vitamin C 58%

Calories in Broccoli
Raw
1 cup
Vitamin C 131%


http://caloriecount.about.com/

[Dan Allan]

Eating healthy is more expensive than eating junk. That's one reason there are so many fast-food joints in the inner city - muds don't care about healthy eating. Of course they are also abundant in mostly White shopping areas, but so are health food stores, organic groceries, etc. Whites are the only people that care about this kind of thing.

[OTPTT]

What you say tracks with what I've read, specifically the loss of nutrients through all preparation but raw and steaming.

One other benefit from eating raw vegetables is that it provides roughage and fiber that one wouldn't get with cooked vegetables. Cooked vegetables are soft and mushy especially if over cooked.

Cooking of vegetables in a pot of water causes the cellular membrane of the food to breakdown which is how the nutrients escape during the cooking process. Steam them whenever possible.

This doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. I try and eat a plate of raw vegetables twice a day. You all may find them more palatable if you were to dip them in a ranch dressing or a dressing of your own making. I like raspberry vinaigrette and other oil and vinegar based solutions so you're only limited by your imagination. Of course a little salt helps too.

[OTPTT]

Try and avoid removing the skin of the vegetables if you can. Carrots are a good example as there is a lot of nutrition in the outer 'skin' of the carrot. I use a scotch pad and lightly scrub the outer portion of the carrot under running water. A scotch like pad will remove dirt and debris and leave the carrot intact. Some people use a peeler which removes the outer portion of the carrot along with the nutrients in that part of the carrot. I then snip each ends of the carrot before consumption.

It may appear that I'm anal about food preparation but this isn't the case.

I'm sure many of you have had a cucumber and onion salad. Clean and slice a cucumber and onion and put it in some type of container that you can seal. After preparing the vegetables pour vinegar up to about half an inch from top of the container and let it sit in your refrigerator for several hours so the vinegar can do it work on the veggies. You might also had a tomato to the mix if you wish.

[Alex Linder]

Note: I have no idea how to multi-quote

Me either. I just type in quote in brackets, quoted material, then /quote in brackets. Do that for whatever quoted material I want. If people use size/font changes, I just elimate that. My way always works, altho there is probably a more efficient way.


The danger with this stuff is it can be so damn cheap. I mistakenly wrote that at least vegetarianism would be cheap. Alex corrected me, and he is right. Hell, bell peppers can go for $1.00 each, these days. Pure junk food, though, can be ridiculous. One supermarket in Denver this week is selling Banquet TV dinners for 99 cents each. Thirty of these would be $29.70. Add pocket meals at 50 cents each (another special, this week) and you've got a months food for just under $45. I prepare almost all my own food, and have trouble staying under $200 a month. If things get tight, it may be pure junk food for lots of folks.

I wasn't really refuting you, just making an observation. My guess is all these foods pretty much even out in terms of costs. What I see now, as I said, is that apples, potatoes, tomatoes, peaches, etc., are often around a dollar apiece for a big one, and if you pay less per item, there's a reason. I don't think produce can be described as cheap today, and that certainly goes for farmer's markets too. FM remind me of garage sales - increasing number of people don't seem to get the point, which is a quick cheap exchange of money for items. Not for the seller to try to get rich. I guess it's a sign of the times.


"Cooking vegetables causes a loss of vitamins and nutrients whereas eating them raw doesn't. When I don't eat raw veggies I try and steam them only. Cooking them in a pot of water is a last resort."

I'm willing to believe this, but is there any engineering data to back it up. It makes sense, and it's written everywhere, but has anyone actually done the lab tests.

Don't know, but it is claimed across the board. What I have noticed is that I don't notice any bodily difference between eating raw and cooked vegetables. Same with multivitamins. I take these sometimes, but damned if I notice any effect from them.


"Raw celery, broccoli, carrots, cucumbers, onions, radishes, and tomatoes are my favorites. Will likely add to these as I find others I enjoy. Have some squash but haven't tried it raw yet."

Interesting. It would be a change for me, but I'd be willing to try it. Now, other than the obvious salad vegetables, (lettuce, tomatoes, cucumbers, olives, onions) the vegetables I eat are cooked, usually just by boiling water. I think I'll be giving raw vegetables a try, as well.

Could eat raw tomatoes all day long, but raw cauliflower and broccoli take real effort to eat. Don't know about onion, going to try it. These hard-core raw guys eventually find themselves doing nothing but eating out of their hands - eventually they don't even bother preparing vegan dishes, they just eat, say, a banana wrapped in lettuce (Klein). Klein says he eats two heads of lettuce a day. But there is a lot you can do - you can make raw broccoli recipes like this.


http://allthingsnice.typepad.com/tastebuddies/2008/06/raw-broccoli-sa.html

I have not made it, but it sounds good.


And just in case someone is having problems with salads, salads don't have to have lettuce. Tomatoes, cucumbers, olives, and onions, dressed with olive oil, lemon juice, and sea salt is a great salad--lettuce is not necessary.


Sounds good, in fact I am going to try that this week.

[Alex Linder]

One other benefit from eating raw vegetables is that it provides roughage and fiber that one wouldn't get with cooked vegetables. Cooked vegetables are soft and mushy especially if over cooked.

Cooking of vegetables in a pot of water causes the cellular membrane of the food to breakdown which is how the nutrients escape during the cooking process. Steam them whenever possible.

This doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. I try and eat a plate of raw vegetables twice a day. You all may find them more palatable if you were to dip them in a ranch dressing or a dressing of your own making. I like raspberry vinaigrette and other oil and vinegar based solutions so you're only limited by your imagination. Of course a little salt helps too.

I know nothing about salad dressings but am learning. They go a long way to make that stuff more palatable, altho people like Atkins warn that a lot of the danger lies in processed condiments and sauces.

Do you eat meat daily, or just occasionally?

[OTPTT]

I know nothing about salad dressings but am learning. They go a long way to make that stuff more palatable, altho people like Atkins warn that a lot of the danger lies in processed condiments and sauces.

Do you eat meat daily, or just occasionally?

Probably best to make your own dressings. The fewer the ingredients the better and of those the least processed the better.

I eat meat when I can and when I have time to prepare it. I've got a freezer full of venison much of which General Lee fixed me up with during the Louisiana get together. I wouldn't say that I eat a lot of meat but I do eat it. I've only recently added raw vegetables to the diet.

[Steve B]

I'm sure many of you have had a cucumber and onion salad. Clean and slice a cucumber and onion and put it in some type of container that you can seal. After preparing the vegetables pour vinegar up to about half an inch from top of the container and let it sit in your refrigerator for several hours so the vinegar can do it work on the veggies. You might also had a tomato to the mix if you wish.

Love those vinegar soaked veggies. Sometimes I'll add some kidney beans and thinly sliced carrots to the onion/cucumber/tomato mix then lightly salt and pepper.

It's not for everyone tho. Some people are overwhelmed by the vinegar taste but it's supposed to be good for you. Vinegar having health benefits.

[Alex Linder]

Probably best to make your own dressings. The fewer the ingredients the better and of those the least processed the better.

I eat meat when I can and when I have time to prepare it. I've got a freezer full of venison much of which General Lee fixed me up with during the Louisiana get together. I wouldn't say that I eat a lot of meat but I do eat it. I've only recently added raw vegetables to the diet.

Yeah, I remember the deer. That can be good. The backstrap from my relative's deer was quite tasty. Some of the other parts can get gamey, but still palatable.

Atkins makes the point it's not the meat in a fast-food burger that's bad for you, the sauces and bread are worse. It can easily be the same with salad. I'm just looking for something simple enough to kill down the taste and harshness of some of the raw stuff.

[colleen]

I am a vegetarian. Have been one for over 20 years now. From birth, raised 2 boys vegan. The oldest has now added meat to his diet and the youngest added eggs but still no dairy. I have never found us to have any health related problems due to the diet we eat. I am of average height and well could probaly lose a few pounds. So contrary to the stereotype not all vegans are sickly about to keel over weaklings. My children are in the average percentile of weight for their heights.

I have found as the vegetarian lifestyle becomes more mainstream it is easier to plan a weekly menu that is full of vitamins and nutrients that one needs on any given day.

[COTW]

I had always just ate whatever I wanted like most people. As I got a little older my ass was dragging by the time I got home from work. 'It had to be my shitty diet' I thought and turned things around. I've found that a weightlifter's diet makes the most sense and have been strictly following one for a little over a year. I've more energy now than ever before and now have a sixpack for the first time ever at the age of 41!

As for the lettuce problem, have you tried different types of lettuce or even try spinach instead. Mike had a good suggestion of no lettuce, I tend to prepare so many veggies for my salad that I only have room for a few leaves of lettuce anyways. I could skip it too and it wouldn't bother me.

The Farmer's market here is much cheaper than the big chain grocery stores and I now buy all my produce from there. I buy my nuts and meat at Costco and now rarely go to the big chains at all and my food costs have been slashed drastically.

[Kievsky]

Alex,

Here's the advice I got from a friend on Crohn's:

The recommended health supplements for improving/ameliorating condions related to the autoimmune disease crohn's are:

OPC3, ORAC, probiotic digestive enzymes and Omega 3 fish oils.

You can probably find this on your own, if you want it. If you need help finding where to purchase it, send a PM as I have a direct source.

Kievsky

[Robert Bandanza]

The only thing I ever hear about when my cousin talks about his Crohn's is all the synthetic pills he takes. He also has seizures too which is another negative.

I cannot wait until the FDA is abolished and herbal remedies will be all there is for medicine. That's why I have been extensively posting in that marijuana discussion thread.

Sorry, to go a little off subject, but since Crohn's has been talked about I figured I'd chime in.