Reading Sobran

A BTL on recent Sobran column on race and "bigots."...

Diversity — The Real Thing

September 16, 2004

I recently got an e-mail message that really shocked and sickened me. It was so ugly that I won’t even quote it.

That's a good way to keep anyone from siding with your opponent. So horrible you can't even quote it? As bad as the crimes of the coloreds you spend the rest of the article celebrating? Note the feminine use of 'ugly.' Joe's one step from Barbara Bush refusing to cloud her "beautiful mind" with gross physical facts about problems caused by coloreds.

It was about race. Evidently the writer assumed that because I write critically about certain sacred cows of “diversity,” I must share his rabid hatred for other groups.

Ah, the traditional liberal I'm ok, you're a hater.

You characterize without quoting, Joe. That's unfair. That prevents the reader from making up his own mind. How illiberally liberal of you. It's easy to debate a muzzled man. Perhaps your readers would side with other guy if you quoted him? Why do you accord niggers more respect than nigger-describers?

I do take racial, ethnic, and cultural differences seriously. I believe all men are created in God’s image,

Detroit is the reflection of God, ah yes, I see. If men are different and the differences matter, how can they be created in the same image? This is one supple god. He needs to get those all-around cleats at Foot Locker.

What is this 'God' anyway? I know what a carrot is, but what is this 'God' thing? At first glance it sounds like an adventitious credibility-enhancer; something you whipped up or pulled out to lend your non-argument a celestial nimbus.

but there is much more to be said about them when they form groups. It’s fine to celebrate “diversity,” but group differences also lead to hatred and war. No point in evading that fact with sentimental slogans

So...all these men are created in God's image...and they're incompatible. That doesn't speak well for your little 'God,' there Sobran. One of you needs to check into the shop.

At the same time, most of us sympathize with the wistful cry, “Can’t we all just get along?” There is a sense in which it’s true, as the cliché has it, that “the things that unite us are more important than the things that divide us.” But the things that divide us, if ultimately less important, are often more urgent, and it’s best to face them frankly.

Indiscriminate hatred is often called bigotry, but that’s only one kind of bigotry. I know people who are bigoted about Shakespeare, in the sense that they refuse to listen to evidence against their views. A closed mind knows no bounds. It can apply itself to any subject under the sun.

Look in the mirror, Joe: You're closed to the view that what you call "hatred" of blacks is more natural and noble than treating them as individuals. Since the white race always moves away from blacks whenever they show up, the whole race must be evil, by your morality.

Racial bigotry is now the most disreputable kind, and usually we are warned about its potential danger to its targets. But there is a sense in which the racial bigot is his own victim. I felt like replying to my correspondent, “Have you stopped to think what you’re doing to your own mind and heart? What kind of man have you turned yourself into? Is that what you really want to be?”

And he might ask the same of you: What kind of man are you, Joe? The kind who avoids discussing the political consequences of group differences to preserve his self-image as loving and just? Is that what you really want to be? Just another fact-averse moralizer?

I’m proud to be a white man, a son of Christian Europe, to which I owe so much. I hate the fashionable derogation of white people.

Yet you're uninterested in nailing the source of the derogation, and resent and avoid others who do, perhaps because their doing makes you appear timid rather than loving and just in your own eyes.

At the same time, that’s no reason to react by derogating everyone else, any more than loving and defending your family is a reason for disparaging other families.

False analogy. The conservative's lack of respect for biology's in full display here. Races are competing subspecies, and their competition is a zero-sum game. Recourse to imaginary 'God' won't change that. When one group of families, one race, is under organized attack by another, disparaging other families -- describing, to use the accurate term -- is the first duty of self-defense. Sobran treats a global campaign against the white race as thought it's some kind of hedge dispute.

Europe has produced a very great civilization, of which America is a part. But there are other civilizations that should command our respect too, and even uncivilized people — we’re no longer supposed to call them savages — have their dignity. And of course our own civilization often fails to live up to its own standards, sometimes outdoing savages in savagery.

Careless use of 'our,' no real point here. Who does your 'our' include? America without blacks is peaceful. America without jews doesn't launch aggressive foreign wars.

All that aside, the racial bigot denies himself the possibility of friendship, enjoyment, appreciation, and countless other pleasures in the people he hates. If he takes his hostility far enough, he becomes willfully blind to their virtues and ungrateful for what they may have to offer him; he crabbily focuses on their faults and shortcomings, as if these were the only things worth noticing about them. And of course he’ll be tempted to violate their most basic rights.

Boys, we've got a liberal here. A Constitutional scholar who thinks blacks have "basic rights," unlike the men who wrote the Constitution he affects to revere. But of course he and the rest of the race liberals know better than Thomas Jefferson and the race realists. Leap into the safety of abstractions - "men" with "rights." How's that working out in the real world, Joe? Do you live around niggers? Why not? Aren't you depriving yourself and family of the wonderful positive externalities of these holy simians? That seems churlish and morally obtuse to me, Joe.

Sobran's writing in the conservative-utopian vein, where men are undifferentiated, and there's world and time enough for all. Tell it to the old folks trapped in nig city, Sobran. Are they deficient in appreciation of the "friendship, enjoyment, appreciation, and countless other pleasures" the surrounding jigs afford? Joe? Your position is equivalent to telling a women being raped, "Hey, at least you're getting laid."

You got a pus reasoner there, buddy, if you don't realize that on one hand you're praising the white race, while on the other you're derogating it for protecting itself by moving away from the niggers you claim God made in his image.

This may sound like sentimental twaddle,

Nah, just workaday liberal science fiction; the typical conservative liberal utopian's attempt to smear the man who treats honestly with racial differences the conservative fears to address. If blacks and whites can't get along, and are, as the Founders and I, if not you, agree are irreconcilably different, then yes, what you write is indeed twaddle.

but I don’t think so. I think it’s simple realism.

That's a smooth and jewy touch, Joe, that "realism." You write like you're a professional. Our Joe seizes for himself the ground he knows he'll be attacked from. No, it isn't "realism," Joe. You were closer with "twaddle."

I owe too much to too many people to write off any group as a whole.

Non sequitur. Retreat into subjectivism. Planted axiom: interracial relations as function of Joe Sobran's feelings about what he owes other groups. Funny how the conservatives always go weak in the knees and prostrate themselves -- not before the facts of racial reality but the dictates of Semitical Correctness.

I understand that racial stereotypes usually have a good measure of truth, but the variations within every group are so great that whenever possible we should — to use another cliché — treat individuals as they come.

Yeah, that'll work as well with nigs and shitskins as it does with alligators, bees and sharks. Pure liberal pap, embarrassing as whatever the anile WFB just squirted. Why should we treat as individuals men who attack and gain advantage over us by acting as a group? We shouldn't. In order to feel good about himself, to feel that he is a "good" person, the Catholic sacrifices all reason, history, and evidence. There's no man as selfish as the moral man. He'll sacrifice the whole world for his conscience.

Tragically, this isn’t always possible. Sometimes a generalization is all we have to go on.

Yeah, that and all recorded experience, biological knowledge, common sense, etc.

And we often encounter the type who, as we used to say, “gives the whole group a bad name.” I could tell you some stories. At times I’ve been embittered by those walking stereotypes. But I’ve also been confounded and even ashamed when people I was biased against behaved with a grace I hadn’t expected, acting in response to the better angels of our nature.

Angels. Yes, cynicism can be as naive as optimism, so I’ve learned from experience to,

There's a little gimcrack paradox, worthy of Chesterton.

as I like to put it, “look for the angels” — the people who, given a chance, will react to a kind gesture with their own kindness. The more you try to act like an angel, the more of these angels you’ll meet. The bigot is always looking for devils. And, with a sour pleasure, he’ll find them.

Yes, we are to act as though the intelligent, kind, courteous exception is more important than the stupid, violent, nasty usual. Keep on pretending that our attitude rather than the objective nature of the thing encountered is the problem, since after all, we daren't take arms and in opposing end it.

That's great advice, Joe. Why don't you move to God's Country, Detroit or Zimbabwe, and see how that works out for you.

"No"?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Joseph Sobran

A. Linder

[Antiochus Epiphanes]

I like Sobran, but these guys need to grow up and figure out what it takes to kick the ass of the bad guys. They act like a bunch of fucking librarians when they need to start acting like the cold, hard, sons of bitches that our Enemies are. You dont get there by wasting lots of time worrying about all that twaddle and simpering nonsense. Group by group is how you sort when the chips are down and time is short and your back is against the wall. Sobran should realize that "group by group" is how the Jews are sorting us out -- because it works.

Remember what the French General said before he put the Cathar town to the sword? "Kill them all, God will know His own."

[Intrepid]

It's hard to dislike Sobran for a plethora of reasons, yet out comes this - something Gottfried would've been hard-pressed putting the pen to. Methinks Lew Rockwell hasn't been a positive influence on him.

Lest we forget this recent gem, which has that undeniable WASP-hatin' stench to it:

The Immigrant Threat?

Conservatives (or “paleoconservatives”) with whom I usually agree, such as Pat Buchanan and Sam Francis, have been raising alarms about the danger to this country posed by immigration. I must say I don’t understand.

Europe may have a serious problem, with its plunging birthrate and rapidly reproducing Muslim immigrants who may transform the continent. Italy and Spain, traditionally the most Catholic countries in Europe, are expected to have Muslim majorities, hostile to Christianity and more or less sympathetic to radical Islam, in the fairly near future. I can see where this may lead to difficulties.

But the American situation is different. Most of our immigrants are Mexican (or Latin American), and most Mexicans are Catholic. It is argued that they resist assimilation to American culture. Maybe so, but they are hardly likely to be loyal to the Mexican government in any way that could be subversive of American law. True, they may overload the welfare state, but whose fault is that? If the welfare state is here to welcome them, the solution is to get rid of it, as should have been done long ago. Overpopulation is a problem for socialist systems, not for free societies. In fact, the welfare system may be more destructive of the immigrants’ families than to the natives.

What are the cultural differences that are believed to be menacing to America? Americans and Mexicans tend to live apart, peacefully preferring their own races, but they don’t seem radically incompatible. Why is total assimilation so desirable? Why shouldn’t the immigrants retain a distinct sense of identity? Would it be better if they gave up their own healthy traditions and adapted to American culture, especially considering the sorry condition that culture has come to?

It’s not as if America still had its edifying old Protestant ethic and stern Puritan morality. Every morning, as I read my papers at McDonald’s, I find myself surrounded by teenagers with body-piercing and exposed navels, gabbing on cell phones and listening to hip-hop. Is that what the Mexicans should aspire to for their children?

Maybe I’m missing something here. But I just don’t feel the least bit threatened by immigrants.

Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes

I like Sobran, but these guys need to grow up and figure out what it takes to kick the ass of the bad guys. They act like a bunch of fucking librarians when they need to start acting like the cold, hard, sons of bitches that our Enemies are. You dont get there by wasting lots of time worrying about all that twaddle and simpering nonsense. Group by group is how you sort when the chips are down and time is short and your back is against the wall. Sobran should realize that "group by group" is how the Jews are sorting us out -- because it works.

Remember what the French General said before he put the Cathar town to the sword? "Kill them all, God will know His own."

I agree. I have less respect for Sobran almost with each passing column. He continually retreats from the inferences of his observations.

The paleocons' brains make them worth reading, but their lack of balls makes them unfit to lead.

The more seriously a man takes Christianity, particularly Catholicism, the more likely he is to make everything subordinate to the demands of his conscience. That sort of scrupulosity has no place in a race war. Treating each and every kike and niggers as an individual makes as much sense as a soldier wondering if his counterpart deserves to be shot. That Hamlet shit has no place in war, and we are at war. That the war is undeclared and that only one side is firing and that conservatives such as Sobran pretend we can moralize our way back to sanity make no difference.

[John in Woodbridge]

Originally Posted by SuperTapir

That the war is undeclared and that only one side is firing and that conservatives such as Sobran pretend we can moralize our way back to sanity make no difference.

The undeclared race war is analogous to game hunting. The deer (whites) have no idea they are on the opposing team.

[Mike Jahn]

Originally Posted by Jim Crowe

The undeclared race war is analogous to game hunting. The deer (whites) have no idea they are on the opposing team.

Good analogy Jim. Jim, you've really gotten smart in the last few weeks. I'm sorry now that I ever doubted you. Some people just take more time than others to reach their peak level of performance.

Continue the fine posts...

[Wolfgang Noosetight]

Originally Posted by SuperTapir

I agree. I have less respect for Sobran almost with each passing column. He continually retreats from the inferences of his observations.

The paleocons' brains make them worth reading, but their lack of balls makes them unfit to lead.

The more seriously a man takes Christianity, particularly Catholicism, the more likely he is to make everything subordinate to the demands of his conscience. That sort of scrupulosity has no place in a race war. Treating each and every kike and niggers as an individual makes as much sense as a soldier wondering if his counterpart deserves to be shot. That Hamlet shit has no place in war, and we are at war. That the war is undeclared and that only one side is firing and that conservatives such as Sobran pretend we can moralize our way back to sanity make no difference.

The Joe Sobrans of the world are in deep denial about the deadly seriousness of what the white world is up against.

These timid half-men want desperately to believe that everything can be talked out and smoothed over;that our enemies will relent if only we give in to them one more time.

Fuck the cowardly,dickless Sobrans of the world!
If these cur dogs believe that licking boot on earth is good enough for them then let the little yippers lick;we MEN on the other hand will be hard,cold and ruthless when our time comes.

The Sobrans of this world are those who never lift a finger to do the hard,bloody work that makes it possible for the Sobrans to sit around and pontificate on how moral they are as they look down upon the very people who are willing to fight and get their hands dirty.The Sobran type is basically a middle class liberal WASP snob:a pissant pansy who enjoys all the hard won fruits of civilization yet he himself would never be man enough to fight for anything,all the while casting a disdainful glance upon the breed of men who are willing to fight and die for what they believe in.

One cannot loathe such ungrateful snobby shitheads sufficiently.

[Steve B]

Originally Posted by Wolfgang Noosetight

The Joe Sobrans of the world are in deep denial about the deadly seriousness of what the white world is up against.

These timid half-men want desperately to believe that everything can be talked out and smoothed over;that our enemies will relent if only we give in to them one more time.

Fuck the cowardly,dickless Sobrans of the world!
If these cur dogs believe that licking boot on earth is good enough for them then let the little yippers lick;we MEN on the other hand will be hard,cold and ruthless when our time comes.

The Sobrans of this world are those who never lift a finger to do the hard,bloody work that makes it possible for the Sobrans to sit around and pontificate on how moral they are as they look down upon the very people who are willing to fight and get their hands dirty.The Sobran type is basically a middle class liberal WASP snob:a pissant pansy who enjoys all the hard won fruits of civilization yet he himself would never be man enough to fight for anything,all the while casting a disdainful glance upon the breed of men who are willing to fight and die for what they believe in.

One cannot loathe such ungrateful snobby shitheads sufficiently.

I was going to post something to this effect but Wolfgang said it better than I ever could!

Well done!

[AJ Balfour]

Originally Posted by Wolfgang Noosetight

The Sobran type is basically a middle class liberal WASP snob:a pissant pansy who enjoys all the hard won fruits of civilization yet he himself would never be man enough to fight for anything,all the while casting a disdainful glance upon the breed of men who are willing to fight and die for what they believe in.

One cannot loathe such ungrateful snobby shitheads sufficiently.

IMHO, you've managed to put forth an admirable effort, Wolfgang.

I think this article by Sobran is his attempt to counterbalance the semitically karmic debenture he incurred upon revealing to the world why he was fired by Billy Buckley.