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Old June 24th, 2008 #194
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Well, as everyone can clearly see, Roberta's mental illness hasn't improved any over the weekend. Wow, every single post is nothing but pure hysterical drivel. One can just sense her anger and rage over the fact that no one else believes her nonsensical fairytales. The "explanation" for the "jewish workers" dressed up in suits and ties gets the Dullencamp reward for that round of claptrap.
Again looking at yourself and projecting your own fallacies and sorry state of mind onto your opponent, aren’t you, Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"I can provide your requested explanation right away: Jewish workers at the AR camps had access to the clothes worn or brought along by the deportees who were gassed there, and the SS probably didn’t mind them taking a few pieces for themselves, for it improved their spirits and made them work better."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!
Hysterical laughter has never been an argument, but thanks for again showing what a howling hysteric you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta, can you show us a single photo of a single pile of cloths in one of the "sorting yards" of just one of the camps?

Just one Roberta.
I don’t think you can explain the relevance of your demand, Gerdes. You cannot explain why such photographs should necessarily have been taken inside the camp (where, after all, the only ones who may have been carrying cameras, the SS-men, were forbidden to take photographs), and you neither can explain why photographs should be necessary to prove the plunder in the sorting yards of the AR camps. Your repetitive "show me photos" – yelling is nothing but the primeval mouthing of a chimp who has no arguments to offer.

Better evidence to the plunder than any photographs are the inventories put together by Globocnik and sent to Himmler, a translation of which you can see under http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/arloot.htm . And for the use of clothes from the murdered deportees by the camp inmates I can think of no better evidence than the testimonies of these inmates, who did not exactly portray themselves in a favorable light by admitting to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Ced:

"You didn't figure a torrential downpour would disturb the neat arrangement of these bones? Not to mention miraculously leaving the surface layer of grass intact. How credulous you are when it suits your cause."

That is exactly why I didn't even bother mentioning those photos. So laughable that only a retard / holocaustian like Roberta and her ilk could believe.
Come on, Gerdes, don’t give me that shit. If the photos were so obviously unrelated to Belzec, that would have been a reason for you to make a big bloody fuss about them rather than simply ignore them. The reason why you ignored them is that you don’t read my posts, and when you do it is with thick tomato slices covering your eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Of course, If Roberta can prove that those photos were taken at Belzec and/or show us the "huge mass grave" that these bones came from, then maybe they could be entered into evidence.
I don’t give a fuck about whether you enter these photos or any photos into evidence because, as you know very well, I don’t think much of the evidentiary value of photographs. But that doesn’t mean you can shift the burden of proof, which in this case is on you. It’s not as if there were not plenty of evidence of all categories to the presence of human bones and skulls at Belzec, and the source caption also identifies these bones as belonging to the Belzec extermination camp. So what we have here is prima facie proof that these are Belzec bones, and it is for you to refute that prima facie proof by providing indications that these bones may not be related to the Belzec extermination camp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Same goes for this alleged photographic "proof" of the Sobibor holocaust:

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...6239_1_web.jpg

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5968_1_web.jpg
Same as above (i.e. the burden of proof is on you), though proving the provenance of the lower photo seems rather easy as it looks like a recent photo of a part of the present-day memorial. I’ll try to obtain information about the size of this display, how many such displays are contained in the monument and what the composition of their contents is (i.e. just human ashes or also wood ashes and soil, in the latter case what is the approximate percentage of either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
OK, a little note here on where / how this is going. I know the title of this thread concerns Treblinka, but I think we have things boiled down enough to include all the alleged "pure extermination centers." In fact, that is what I wanted to do from the get-go, although the original plan was to start a new thread, I don't think that is necessary. With that said -

Let's finish up with Sobibor. Roberta, you claim that the following mountain of ash, prove the Sobibor holocaust:

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5964_1_web.jpg
No I don’t, as filthy liar Gerdes well knows. No exhibit, and especially no photograph, can proof the mass murder at Sobibor on its own (as even someone as limited as Gerdes should be able to understand). What this photograph shows is a memorial containing the ashes of some of the victims of Sobibor extermination camp, thus visualizing a part of the physical evidence to that mass extermination, which in turn is just a part of the overall record of evidence also consisting of documentary, demographic and eyewitness evidence. The photo is an illustration of the physical evidence, a visualization of some of it. Nothing more and nothing less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Well then Roberta, if this really is a "huge mountain of human ash," then there must be a huge pit that all this "human ash" was dug out of. Please show us a photo of this alleged "huge pit" and please provide proof that this "mountain of human ash" actually contains human ash.
Why should I, because Gerdes says so? It is for Gerdes to disprove the photograph’s caption, a caption that the known evidence to the Sobibor mass killings suggests is accurate. If he instead wants to make it obvious through his unreasonable demands that he’s not interested in any evidence at all but just trying to protect his imbecile articles of faith, that’s his problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
As far as this photo goes:

http://www.undersobibor.org/excavation09.jpg

Stricken.

Unless and until you can show us the alleged "huge mass grave" that these alleged "human remains" came from, and photographic documentation of the alleged dig, then it is and will remain stricken.
You’re not one to arbitrarily strike anything, and the unreasonableness of your demand makes your striking arbitrary. The provenance of this photo (the Sobibor Archeological Project) is prima facie evidence that it shows artificial teeth that belonged to victims of the Sobibor extermination camp, so it’s for you to disprove this evidence, and not for me to provide further information about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Same goes for this photo of the alleged human remains of Chelmno:

http://www.death-camps.org/occupatio...gchelmno06.jpg
Again, asshole, it’s not for me to reinforce the prima facie proof that these are Chelmno photographs, but for you to invalidate that proof. The least you have to do is provide some good reasons to doubt the accuracy of the source captions. So get cracking, Gerdes. Do something for a change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
But of course, those two photos do beg the question:

If those "human remains" really were dug out of "huge mass graves," then where are all the other bones?
Obviously inside the mass graves or also lying around on the site, independently of how many photographs have been taken or if anyone bothered to photograph them at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
We're talking mere ounces of alleged evidence when there is supposed to be millions of pounds.
So what? Things don’t have to be photographically recorded in order to exist. Photographs are not the only relevant documentation of physical evidence. Even a dumb fuck like Gerdes should be able to understand that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Where are all the other bones Roberta?
A few ounces of alleged "human remains" does not prove the murder of over two million people.[/quote]

The total for all four camps is more than 1.5 million, and who said that a few photographs of fractions of the physical evidence alone prove mass murder? They don’t. They cannot possibly, already because photographs can capture only fractions of the physical evidence but never the whole of it or even a significant part thereof. Photographs can just illustrate, visualize and thus make easier to understand what becomes apparent from other, more telling evidence, from eyewitness testimonies, incriminating documents and forensic site investigation reports. That is what photographs are for. Yelling for photographs that prove the remains of 1.5 million people or graves containing such remains is as imbecile and infantile a demand as I can think of.

It seems that Gerdes doesn’t apply the same idiotic standards when it comes to Soviet crimes, by the way. Please tell us, Gerdes, how many photographs of the GuLag Archipelago can you show us? And more specifically, how many photographs of dead people in any of the GuLag camps? I submit that there are hardly any, if any at all. Shall we therefore assume that the GuLag Archipelago and its 2.5 million victims from 1930 to 1953 have not been proven, Mr. Gerdes? Is the absence of photographs supposed to mean that it is all a hoax invented by the Americans during the Cold War or whosoever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Remember Roberta:

I don’t see an elephant in my basement. If there were an elephant in my basement, I would certainly see it. Therefore, there is no elephant in my basement.
The "elephant in my basement" is no "elephant", first of all. It would be if it had been demonstrated that the mass murder in question was physically impossible, but that has not been demonstrated. On the contrary, all attempts in this direction have miserably failed. Second, the "elephant" is not in your "basement". It’s not something that needs to be wholly visible on photographs displayed on the internet in order to have happened. No historical event is.

Or can you show us a historical event, preferably mass murder of comparable dimensions, that is wholly visualized in photographs, Mr. Gerdes?

Please show us one such event, Mr. Gerdes.

Just one.

Preferably with photos available on the web, it not please make the necessary scans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"I don’t remember having included these photos in my record of Belzec evidence, but maybe I forgot something. Can you show me where I included these photos in my record of Belzec evidence, Mr. Gerdes?"

I'm duty bound to include all photos that I am aware of, whether you entered them into evidence or not.
Horseshit, Mr. Gerdes. Your including in the discussion exhibits that I have not referred to is a dishonest straw-man tactic. One that perfectly fits a stinking liar like you, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
This is about the truth, and unlike you, I'm not about to keep information / photos that I know exist out of evidence.
So you’re interested in the truth, Gerdes?

Then how come you limit your quest for the truth to just one type of record or just one category of evidence, moreover one that does not on its own allow for establishing even a fraction of the truth, instead of looking at all records of all categories of evidence that you can get hold of, eyewitness testimonies, demographic data, German documents, site investigation reports, archeological studies?

I’ll tell you why, asshole: because the truth is the last thing you’re interested in. All you’re interested in is protecting your imbecile articles of faith by

a) limiting the record of evidence to a type of record of a particular category of evidence that you figure is hardest for your opponent to obtain and easiest for you to make a fuss about and

b) making a fuss about all exhibits of that type of record that are provided.

You’re as transparent as a plate of glass, Mr. Gerdes. You’re fooling no one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Again Roberta. In order for a photo to be entered into evidence, you have to prove who the photographer was, what date the photo was taken (I will be lenient on this), and prove that the location that the photo was allegedly taken at was in fact taken at said location. In other words, prove the caption that you are always presenting with the photos.
Again, why would I have to "prove" all that? Because Gerdes the bigmouth says so? You’ll have to find something better, asshole. Something like rules or standards of evidence whereby a photographic document can only be used as evidence for the purpose of criminal investigation or historical research if the identity of the photographer is known and the contents of the caption are confirmed by evidence independent of the photograph’s source. When you have done that, I might feel compelled to obtain more information about each photograph than what is contained in its caption. But not before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The stricken photos will be noted in my next recap.
No, Gerdes, you don’t get to arbitrarily stipulate the standards of proof here, and you’re not striking anything without demonstrating that it would not be admissible as evidence for the purpose of criminal investigation or historical research and/or that there are good reasons to doubt its accuracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"Actually you have no evidence at all that would suggest the fraudulence of the accepted historical record of the AR camps."

Sorry Roberta, but all the evidence that I have and need can be summed up thusly:

If it couldn’t have happened - as alleged, then it didn’t happen - as alleged.
Sorry, Gerdes, but I still have to see a demonstration that "it couldn’t have happened – as alleged".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Just what part of physically impossible do you not understand Roberta?
None, but I have seen no demonstration of physical impossibility. You, on the other hand, seem to believe in things that are physically impossible, like hundreds of thousands of people entering a place and never leaving it but not having been killed there. Are we asked to believe those Jews were abducted by flying saucers, Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"Your friend Krege seems to have good reasons for not publishing the results of his "forensic examination.. the poor fellow probably found exactly what he was hoping not to find."

Really Roberta? Then why don't you and / or any other dirty lying jew just go over to Treblinka and do your own GPR examination of the site?
First of all, I’m not Jewish.

Second, the only filthy liar here is your.

And third, if no GPR examination of the site is done the simple reason is that it is not considered necessary in order to prove what happened at Treblinka. And as all documentary, demographic, eyewitness and physical evidence points to mass murder and no evidence points to any other alternative, that is an altogether reasonable position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
What are you and/or the jews afraid of Roberta?
Unlike poor Krege (who is understandably afraid of publishing the results of his "forensic examination", lest they reveal that he found what he hoped not to find) and howling coward Gerdes (who is afraid of looking at any evidence other than photographs he can make a fuss about), I’m not afraid of anything. And neither are other researchers of the event, Jewish or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Just one grave Roberta.

Just one percent.
Just one grave? OK.

I present seven independent converging sources on the presence of at least one mass grave in the area of Treblinka II extermination camp.

Source One:

Polish site investigation reports of 13 November and 29 December 1945, as quoted in my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html. Relevant excerpts, emphases mine:

Quote:
The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.
Quote:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay.
Source Two:

Scan from Krege’s "forensic examination", as assessed by GPR expert Lawrence B. Conyers, see under http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=73168&page=2 (emphasis mine):

Quote:
I looked at the web site, and the image you sent. It is only one small part of his 'grid'. The picture shows him using a 200 MHz antenna and collecting about 1 meter spaced transects in a huge grid. That image is not processed, and only shows about a 5 meter long section in one line. And even in that profile it looks like a bunch of "things" in the ground on the right hand side that could easily be mass graves. It is apparent that this guy either does not know anything of GPR, or at the very least does not know how to process it. To really do a good job, the data need to be put into a 3-D cube of reflections and processed in a batch, including ALL the profiles collected. If you really wanted to get to the bottom of this you either need to get his data and let someone else process it, or re-collect it all and re-process your own data. This is NOT a scientific or representive study of the ground by any stretch.
Assessment of same source under http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=94929 :

Quote:
Originally Posted by sallyg
Significant purturbation of the "A" or topsoil horizon is present and the inconsistent returns from the "B" or subsoil horizon certainly merits investigation. As an example of undisturbed soil, this fails any test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obdicut
Mr. Mills,

Since the images do show disturbance of the topsoil consistent with graves (in the most generous sense), I hope he didn't follow your advice.
Source Three

Document mentioned in Stephen Potyondi’s article under http://www.holocaust-history.org/ope...tion-treblinka , emphasis mine:

Quote:
A final document, though it gives no exact indications of numbers, is illustrative when it comes to giving an idea of just how many Jews were being killed. It is the remark of the Wehrmacht commander of Ostrow recorded in the first war diary of the General Quartermaster of the Military Commander in the Generalgouvernement on 24 October 1942.

It reads: "OK Ostrow reports that the Jews in Treblinka are not sufficiently buried and therefore an unbearable smell of corpses befouls the air."51

Ostrow, it is significant to point out, was 20 kilometres from Treblinka.
A scan of this document can be viewed under http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/...blinka/images/

Source Four

Deposition of Franz Suchomel, referred to in the judgment at the 1st Düsseldorf Treblinka trial that is quoted under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/250...nka-Trial.html, my translation:

Quote:
In what orders of magnitude they were working at Treblinka furthermore becomes apparent from a telling account by the defendant Suchomel about the opening of a corpse pit. As he credibly states, he once was in the upper camp at the beginning of 1943, when one of the gigantic corpse pits was being opened because the corpses were now to be burned. On this occasion, Suchomel further states, his comrade Pötzinger, the deputy commander of the death camp, told him that this one corpse pit alone contained about 80,000 corpses.
Source Five

Photos taken by Treblinka II deputy commander Kurt Franz, assessed by Alex Bay under http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/:

Quote:
A mass grave can be seen close up in Figure D-1. It is evicent in the picture that the horizons caused by the layering of different colored soils. These horizons can also be seen in other Kurt Franz pictures and they serve to reveal grave pits at a greater distance. They can be seen in figures D4 and D5. An enlargement of the area in which layering can be seen may be found in Figure D-5. The white arrows in D4 point to a deep excavation. The two pictures in the figure compose an inadvertent stereo pair. Viewing the image in this mode permits one to see the small region common to the two images in relief. A nearly vertical wall rises in the v-shaped area framed by the soil being excavated. Layering can also be seen. Figure D5 is an enlargement and the entire extent of an excavation can be seen. In this image the layering is not really visible, although the rim of the excavation is easy to see. It turns out that the grave appearing in these last two figures is the same one.
Source Six

Documents mentioning robbery-digging of the Treblinka graves, quoted in the Polish newspaper article translated under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506 , emphases mine:

Quote:
We gain insight into the "Activity Calendar of the Siedlce Section of the NSZ Task Force for Special Actions" [Narodowe Siły Zbrojne - National Armed Forces, right-wing nationalist, anti-communist Polish partisan organization - translator's note] for the year 1946. Under the date 26 February we read: "The action for raising contributions from people who ravished the graves in Treblinka was carried out together with the men from the section of 'Władek', the regional commandant of the Sokolow section."

On 27 February: "For the second time we raised contributions together with the people of 'Władek', this time from people who ravish the graves in Treblinka and live in villages in the surroundings of Kosów Lacki. For their comradely assistance the group of 'Zych' received 30 000 złoty to buy weapons."
Source Seven

Interview of former Treblinka commander Franz Stangl by Gitta Sereny, quoted in Sereny, Into that Darkness, page 201, emphasis mine:

Quote:
“So you didn’t feel they were human beings
“Cargo, “ he said tonelessly. “They were cargo. “ He raised and dropped his hand in a gesture of despair Both our voices had dropped. It was one of the few times in those weeks of talks that he made no effort to cloak his despair, and his hopeless grief allowed a moment of sympathy.
“When do you think you began to think of them as cargo? The way you spoke earlier, of the day when you first came to Treblinka, the horror you felt seeing the dead bodies everywhere - they weren’t cargo’ to you then, were they?”
“I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of blue-black corpses. It had nothing to do with humanity - it couldn’t have; it was a mass - a mass of rotting flesh. Wirth said, ‘What shall we do with this garbage?’ I think unconsciously that started me thinking of them as cargo.”
There are more sources, but this should do. Seven sources that have nothing to do with each other, one of them (Source Two) even provided by someone who tried to prove there had been no mass murder at Treblinka, tell us that there were mass graves at Treblinka.

How do you explain this, Mr. Gerdes?