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Old August 29th, 2008 #1040
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp

Originally Posted by Gerdes

"The pit 7.5 meters deep... can only have been a former mass grave... What he did find was at least one mass grave..."

Notice that the dull one, despite Lukaszkiewicz's amission that: "During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves," continues to insist that "at least on mass grave" was found.
Poor Gerdes, even this simple and clear-cut reasoning:

The pit 7.5 meters deep containing lots of human remains, which is described in Lukaszkiewicz' site investigation report of 13 November 1945, can only have been a former mass grave. This means that when Lukaszkiewicz wrote that he found "no mass graves", he meant to say that he found "no mass graves full of stinking dead bodies". What he did find was at least one mass grave containing partial remains of human bodies. And he found an area of 20,000 square meters covered by ashes, bone fragments and other partial remains, which can only have been the area of the Treblinka "death camp" section that had contained the mass graves.
was too hard for him to follow.

Next he’ll probably freak out again and go messing around with what I wrote. Stay tuned, folks.

Originally Posted by Gerdes

Where is this alleged "former" mass grave Retardo?

EXACT location please.
Simple answer to irrelevant and silly demand:

Exact location is the mass graves area of the former "death camp" sector of Treblinka extermination camp. More detailed coordinates are currently unknown to me.

But as we’re at it, I just found more detailed coordinates for the Chelmno mass graves. Have a look under :

3. Archeological work carried out in 2003-2004.
The cemetery in the Rzuchów Forest.
Between 1960 and 1964 a great and difficult task of tidying up and commemorating the great cemetery in the Rzuchów Forest was undertaken. Unfortunately, these actions often caused irreversible damage, obliterating the traces of the barbarian acts committed here. The need to carry out archival and field research was neglected; an important element - the Chełmno residents' memory - was not made use of. Many of the residents knew the postwar layout of the clearings, as well as the post-crematorium and post-grave sites from their personal observation. A few decades after the war, the accounts collected by the Museum were very helpful at carrying out the excavations.
The basic aim of starting the archeological work in the cemetery was to verify whether the boundaries of mass graves marked with stone walls between 1962-1964 were correct.
The data acquired from two photointerpretations of the aerial photographs of 1986 and 2002 needed to be verified and the remaining crematoria found. Furthermore, within the scope of capabilities, the location of the trenches for burying human ashes described by Bednarz and linked to the first phase of the center operation needed to be verified.
The research in the cemetery was carried out with the application of methods which did not disturb the layers and places where human remains were expected to be found. We adopted the method of intersecting objects on the photointerpretations with 1-meter long probes, thus obtaining a legible horizontal stratigraphy, that is a photograph of sod and a humus layer, only sporadically reaching deeper, when stratigraphy was disturbed. Due to the large extend of the research, it was decided to make boreholes in the places where clarifications were needed.
The cemetery grounds were divided into plots; the terminology was adapted from the terminology of forest land maps.

Plot II
The first grave.
During the first research in the cemetery in 1986, we came across a trace of, most likely, one of the two first graves, described by District Forester Heinz May in his account. The 2003 research examined the extent of the grave. It is situated parallel to an old forest track (about 18 m towards the West) running through the clearing marked as plot II along the NW-SE line. The grave has an irregular shape; the width of the northern part can be established at 8 m and narrows by 3 meters towards the south. Its length equals 62 m. More or less in the middle, it is cut by a concrete road of the period between 1962 and 1964. Its irregular shape and relatively insignificant length in comparison with the other graves indicate that the grave was dug by hand. Under the humus, on the top of the ash layer, we found several unburned objects belonging to the victims. These are: flatware, a mirror with the image of a young woman on the back, a bottle, a toothbrush, a full box of the Nicea cream (with the inscription "Posen"). Finding small objects belonging to the victims may confirm the assumption that the grave comes from the initial period of the center operation, when, most likely, a certain number of people were buried with their clothes (January 1942). While uncovering the grave we noticed that the earth must have contained some active substances: protective rubber gloves became destroyed.
Collected earth samples were examined by the Karol Marcinkowski University of Medical Sciences in Poznań, Department of Forensic Medicine. Caustic substances in the grave may provide evidence for experiments connected with liquidation of corpses. The special unit (Sonderkommando) under the command of SS Hauptsturmführer Herbert Lange, which in autumn 1941 in the Kazimierz Forest near Konin killed an undetermined group of victims by boiling them alive in pits filled with quicklime, was later transferred to the center in Chełmno at that time being established. It seems very likely that the attempts to liquidate the corpses with the use of lime were shifted to Chełmno. This method apparently did not prove successful with a significant number of bodies. In the cemetery thus far we have not come across another such place where the earth would contain active chemical substances.

Plot III
It is marked by a rectangular clearing running along the forest track. The main objective of the research carried out at this plot was to check the route of the grave situated in it. In the years 1962-1964 mass graves in the cemetery were marked with stone walls. The analysis of the aerial photos raised considerable doubts as to the correctness of establishing their location. Furthermore, the scope of the research program was widened trough the issue of explaining the existence of a "furnace" situated on the opposite side of the old forest track, at the south-western entrance to the clearing, marked on the 1951 plan by geodesists. A probing survey excluded the existence of a crematorium or any other construction at the site. In the place of an "interval" in the forested area, opposite the alleged furnace, during a probing survey we found traces of strengthening the track with demolition debris (not from chamotte brick) and traces of posts (strengthened inside the pits with broken limestone), possibly linked to the fence whose construction is mentioned by H. May. Probably in this place there was the entrance to the clearing, which is why it was necessary to strengthen the junction and the forest track.
Difficult to be unambiguously explained is the fact of finding lumps of coke.

The second grave, so-called "włocławska"
Situated about 20 m east of the old forest track, the grave runs parallel to it. Its current length is marked with a stone wall and equals 185 m. In order to establish its actual run, transverse probes were put up, while in inaccessible places drills were made.
On the basis of the drills made, it was possible to state that the clearing where the grave is situated was originally longer: it stretched over 45 m further south. The grave had an irregular width, ranging from about 7 m in the southeastern part, through about 10 m in the middle part, to only 4 m in the northeastern edge. While the new layout was being uncovered, the existence of burned-out objects and ashes as well as crushed human bones both burned and unburned was stated. Moreover, a number of unburned objects belonging to the victims were found, e.g. metal pots, a fragment of a pipe, a fragment of a photo of a man on a porcelain plaque. Further part of the grave contains burned-out objects mixed with inclusions of ash and bonemeal as well as lumps of burn waste and coke. Striking is also the absence of objects belonging to the victims. The total length of the grave equals 254 m. Its southeastern edge was established on the basis of drills. The depth established on the basis of drills equals 3 m. The aerial photograph of May 1942, very important for the cemetery research, shows both clearings; the graves were probably masked. However, the photograph of October 1944 clearly shows the clearings with the graves and the place where the burned-out forest used to grow. The burnt-out forest is the evidence of involving burning corpses with Thermite bombs during the first phase of the center operation. The dimensions and size of the two observed grave segments seem to indicate that it was formed during a longer period of time. The northern segment was probably dug by hand. The dimensions and the straight line of the grave's southern segment's edge suggest that it was probably made with the use of mechanical equipment. The character of the contents of both segments also suggests the existence of two phases of the grave formation. The northern segment contains a number of unburned objects belonging to the victims, which may suggest burying corpses with their clothes. Absence of objects in the southern segment may indicate burying the victims naked. The emptying of the graves probably was also done at other times. The northern segment of the grave may probably be linked to different attempts to remove the corpses, burn them inside the graves or in primitive furnaces-hearths as well as to the process of crushing bones. In the other segment, bones ground into bonemeal can already be found. During one of the traverse probing surveys we found a fragment of a smoked concrete pipe. This may suggest that in some part of the grave, perhaps in the initial phase, corpses were burned. South of the grave a round aluminum badge with no. 1280 and a hole for hanging the badge was found. According to the accounts of the employed workers, in the period between 1962-1964 when the cemetery was being tidied, 6 similar badges were found near the "włocławska" grave. They were later handed over to the Town Council in Dąbie, which further handed them over to a newly-established Museum in Chełmno. Interesting is the fact that the badges have the same diameter, while the numbers on most of them form a sequence: 3276, 3277, 3378, 3280, 3281, 2521. In the Chełmno estate grounds, near the granary, a smaller badge with number 1104 was found. It is unknown which group of prisoners had to wear such badges. Significantly greater quantities (over 300) of such numbered badges made of concrete were found during archeological research in Bełżec; their function, however, has not been explained there either. Perhaps an answer to this question lies in the organization of labor camps for Jews.

Plot IV

It is represented by the largest of the clearings, with the shape of an irregular quadrilateral. Objects described as graves are located in the eastern part of the clearing. Objects interpreted as furnaces for burning corpses are situated in the western part of the clearing. The aim of the research was to determine the actual layout of the graves as well as recognize the objects known from the photointerpretations of the aerial photographs in its eastern part. Taken in 1998, the aerial photos of the cemetery grounds suggested the existence of unexplained parallel lines between the forest wall and the third grave, which may have indicated the existence of one more mass grave. In order to explain this issue, traverse probes were set up and several drills made. It was stated that these were the traces of deep plowing, done with forest plows.
On account of the character of the objects located in the clearing, the method of surface uncovering of the objects' outlines was adopted within the whole terrain, and, in case of doubts, drilling was to be made.

The third grave.
Located parallel to the forest wall. On the basis of probing surveys and drills, it was stated that it reaches the forest from the south (SE), insignificantly entering its area. It passes under the forest track, which during the war most likely in this part of the clearing ran along the then forest wall, situated further on than the present one. A stone wall (about 135 meters long), which was to determine the stretch of the grave, is narrower by 2 m than the actual width of the grave. Its total length equals 174 m, width about 8 m. The contents of the grave includes sandy soil with gravel, burn waste, ash, and crushed human bones.

The fourth grave.
It is represented by a 140-metre-long wall. Located between the third and the fifth graves; its presumed location does not correspond with the actual location. The fundamental fourth grave is located between the wall of the fourth non-existent grave and covers the whole fifth grave. Its actual width equals 10 m, while its length is 182 m. It is filled with gray sandy soil mixed with inclusions of burn waste, ash and crushed bones.

The fifth grave
The last grave, or rather a line of pits filled with ashes, was not commemorated with any walls; in the 1960s it was already not discernible on the surface. On the basis of the description by Judge W. Bednarz it appears that in 1945 the pits were examined by him.
The total length of these pits equals 161 m. The stretch is made up of 11 pits, each located about 2-3 m from another. The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones. In the southern (SE) part of the grave the bones found in the pits used to be ground; those in further parts - crushed. According to W. Bednarz, the depth of the pits was about 4 m, and the width 8-10 m. Even now the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface.
Was that why you struck Chelmno from the NAFCASH challenge, Mr. Gerdes?

It wouldn’t surprise me at all.

And neither would another round of the inevitable "let’s see some photos" – howling.

Or will it be "how many ounces of crushed human bones"?