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Old September 12th, 2008 #1242
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Post #1229

Quote:
Greg Gerdes
Retardo:

"I never claimed that the victims of Treblinka disappeared "without leaving a trace", on the contrary... I never claimed that all teeth were reduced to tooth meal, on the contrary... I provided two sources expressly mentioning teeth on the grounds of Treblinka... Grossman may have got measurements and other data wrong... But thereís no reason to assume that he was wrong about the above-mentioned teeth... Any particular reason why this should not be enough to conclude that teeth were lying around on the Treblinka site? Gerdes omits my reasonable explanation for expecting teeth to have been among the human remains mentioned in the site investigation reports, even though there is no express mention of teeth in these reports... It just means they didnít crush all of them, as I have pointed out over and over again, quite a few must have been overlooked. Duh!... a claim which I never made, that all teeth were crushed... Actually, as Gerdes well knows, I never claimed that the crushing of teeth following at Treblinka led to the obliteration of all of these teeth. In the mass graves, according to Kola, "there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay". These remains may well include teeth, lots of them."

Yes Retardo. But not just "lots," allegedly - 36 million.
Lying P.O.S. Gerdes keeps ignoring that, as I wrote in my post # 1213,

Quote:
The fragility of teeth subjected to fire is discussed, for instance, in an article in the 4/1990 issue of the Journal of Forensic Science, written by Harry H. Minces, Hugh E. Berryman, G. Allen Murray and Richard L. Dickens, that is headed "Methods for Physical Stabilization of Ashed Teeth in Incinerated Remains" and refers to methods "for physically stabilizing the extremely fragile ashed teeth[my emphasis] that are often encountered in incinerated human remains". The authors are not talking about cremation in a crematorium, but about incineration in cars following traffic accidents, fires in buildings and such. So whoever claims that teeth would not be destroyed in or after an open-air cremation process at very high temperatures (it was not possible to go near the fire, according to eyewitnesses) is obviously full of shit.
This means that most of however many teeth the ca. 1.3 million victims of the AR camps had (itís a more than a bit silly to assume, considering that the deportees largely included toothless babies and old folks and that even the younger ones were not exactly in the most healthy conditions, to assume that every deportee had a full set of adult teeth, as Gerdes obviously does), most of them were either consumed by fire or subsequently crushed into tooth meal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And let's not forget the alleged 8.25 million pounds of crushed bone.
Assuming that the about 1,330,000 victims of the AR camps (430,000 at Belzec, 150,000 at Sobibor, 750,000 at Treblinka) weighed 35 kg on average (a reasonable assumption considering the large proportion of women and children, and also the fact that most of these people came from miserable Polish ghettos and therefore were not exactly well-fed), the life weight was 46,550,000 kg. Cremation leftovers, according to Mattognoís experimental data, would amount to 5 % of that, i.e. 2,327,500 kg or 5,131,259 pounds. And what matters when it comes to finding and identifying these cremation remains is not their weight, but their volume in relation to the volume of soil they were buried with. The volume of 2,327.5 tons of human cremation remains, also according to Mattogno, would be 4,655 cubic meters. Assuming 8 bodies per cubic meter in a mass grave, which even Mattogno considers plausible (actually the concentration may well have been higher considering a number of factors, see e.g. my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...-must-see.html ), and that all bodies were buried before being burned (actually about 70,000 out of the 150,000 killed at Sobibor and about 40,000 of the 750,000 killed at Treblinka were burned immediately after being killed), the mass grave volume required to bury 1,330,000 bodies would be 166,250 cubic meters. So when the cremation remains were returned to the mass graves, they occupied a mere 4,655 ų 166,250 = 2.80 % of the volume of the mass graves to which they were returned, the remaining 97.20 % being wood ash of soil. If we instead assume that they managed to bury 15 bodies in one mass grave before exhuming the mass graves and burning the bodies, the volume required would be ca. 88,700 cubic meters. In that case the cremation remains returned to the mass grave would make out 4,655 ų 88,700 = 5.25 %, the remaining 94.75 % being wood ash or soil. A ratio of 18:1

So the idea that Gerdes is trying to force-feed the suckers he expects his readers to be is that it would be a piece of cake to find one pound of human cremation remains among an amount of soil and wood ash 18 times higher, and to separate the human cremation remains from much higher amounts of soil and wood ash and to accurately quantify the human cremation remains.

This, of course, is bullshit of such magnitude that it takes a "Revisionist" true believer to swallow it. But then, "Revisionist" true believers are the audience that Gerdes is playing to here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
All allegedly in 14 "huge mass graves."
Actually there were at least 33 mass graves in Belzec alone (Alex Bay has argued that Prof. Kola did not find all the mass graves, IIRC), and 7 in the "Camp III" area of Sobibor. The number of mass graves in the Treblinka "death camp" section has not yet been determined, but given a probable mass graves area of about 20,000 square meters, ten mass graves with an area of 50 x 25 meter and a depth of 7.5 meters could easily have fit there, see my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
That, out of all the physical evidence that retardo herself insists, over and over - never disappeared "without leaving a trace."

Yes, retardo insists that she never bought into the "magically disappearing jew theory."
I actually donít even think that theory exists, outside "Revisionist" straw-man fantasies. Unless, of course, Gerdes is referring to his own idiotic "transit camp" theory, whereby over 1.3 million Jews transported via Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories must have been abducted from there by flying saucers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Yet she can't prove the existence of any more than one single tooth.
Horseshit. I can prove every single surviving tooth, because proof of every single surviving tooth logically follows from he documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence to the mass killing, its scale and the body disposal procedure adopted, including but not limited to the exhibits mentioned in my post # 777 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=777, complemented and further corroborated as concerns Sobibor by:

a) Photographs of core samples:







(When will you stop running away from my questions regarding these core samples, Mr. Gerdes?);

b) Photographs of bone fragments scattered on the Sobibor site:

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....0Fragment.html

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....he%20sand.html

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....fragments.html

(Ever thought how hard it would be to find such bone fragments on the Sobibor site if they were not lying around all over the place?);

c) A map from Prof. Kolaís archaeological investigation in 2001, of which a copy, which Iím trying to obtain permission to publish, is in my possession;

d) An air photo:



showing part of the area around the circular monument that is part of the Sobibor memorial:



with lush green areas signaling the presence of human remains below ground in areas where mass graves are shown on the map, presumably pursuant to Prof. Kola's archaeological investigation in 2001; and

e) A satellite photo under http://maps.pomocnik.com/satellite-maps/?map=4194 , kindly provided by Gerdes and already discussed in the updates:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...st-update.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...st-update.html

of my blog article about the mass graves at Sobibor under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...t-sobibor.html , duly crediting Gerdesí valuable contribution to the deconstruction of "Revisionist" articles of faith.

My post # 172 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=172, referred to in my post # 777 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=777 , also refers to one eyewitness testimony and one official contemporary document that expressly mention teeth lying around on the Treblinka site or picked up by robbery diggers, see exhibits A.3.1.1 and A.3.1.6 (misnamed A.1.3.6). And one of the Sobibor exhibits listed in my post # 777 is a photo of artificial human teeth found during recent archaeological work on the Treblinka site: http://www.undersobibor.org/excavation09.jpg (hey Gerdes, you forgot to say "natural" tooth ).

The only thing I cannot provide is a photograph showing one or more natural teeth. But as photographs of physical exhibits are not the only source of proof except perhaps in Gerdeyland, that doesnít mean I can provide no proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Now show us where the other 3,999,999 teeth are that are mixed with the 8.25 million pounds of crushed bone.
Your calculations are wrong, my dear Gerdes. And while I can show you any amount of human remains that logically follows from the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence by simply referring to that evidence, Iíd say that before I have to show anything bigmouth Gerdes should substantiate his assumptions, i.e.

1. Demonstrate that, despite the fragility resulting from cremation at high temperatures, most of the victimsí teeth must still be lying intact in the soil of Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka;

2. Provide a calculation as to what volume the number of teeth he can demonstrate to have probably survived must occupy inside the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka.

3. Demonstrate that it should be easy to find teeth when excavating the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. That might well the hardest part of Gerdesí exercise. Letís say a tooth has a volume of 1 cubic centimeter or 0.000001 cubic meters. Even the 36 million teeth that Gerdes babbles about would then have a total volume of, go figure, just 36 cubic meters. Given a minimum mass grave volume of 88,700 cubic meters, see above, even 36 million teeth would occupy just 0.04 % of volume of the mass graves, the rest being other human remains (about 5.21 % of the total volume) and wood ash and soil (about 94.75 % of the volume).

This means that every surviving tooth inside the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka would be surrounded by:

a) a volume 128 times higher of other human remains, and
b) a volume 2,335 times higher of wood ash and soil, and
c) a volume 2,463 times higher of matter other than tooth.

Still trying to tell us that it would be easy to find teeth inside the mass graves, Mr. Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
My question to the dull one:

And while you're at it dull one, can you show us just:

ONE pound of crushed bone at Treblinka and Sobibor?

ONE tooth at Treblinka and Sobibor?
Depends on what you mean by "show", bigmouth.

If "show" means "prove that they exist", no problem, I just have to refer to the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence to mass murder, from which it logically follows that lots of teeth, crushed bone and other human remains are lying in the soil of Sobibor or Treblinka.

If "show" means "show a photograph", I have shown photographs of core samples and bone fragments probably amounting to less than one pound, and of three artificial teeth from Sobibor. I also have, see exhibit A.3.2.3.2 in my post # 172 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=172, shown photos of the Treblinka area in 1945 on which one obviously sees far larger amounts of human ashes and bone fragments (judging by the fact that, according to one of the crime site investigation reports mentioned as exhibit A.3.1.4 in the same post, such remains covered an area of 20,000 square meters at Treblinka), though these remains are of course hard if not impossible to distinguish from the soil on a photo, at least a black-and-white one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo's answer:

"I donít know if any of the photos I have shown so far shows the specified quantity of the type of human remain specified in your first question, and I also donít think I have a photo showing a tooth found at either camp, at least a natural one."

"At least not a natural one?" LOL!!!! Priceless.
"Natural" was the artificial qualification introduced by charlatan Gerdes (who seems to be suffering memory failures) because he knows that I have this photo of artificial teeth from Sobibor at my disposal: http://www.undersobibor.org/excavation09.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Well yes stupid, we've known all along that you had nothing. But at least you've finally admitted that you can't prove that so much as one pound of crushed bone or even so much as one real tooth exists at Treblinka or Sobibor. Nor can you prove that Belzecs grave #10 contains the remains of so much as 600 jews, AFTER Kola has claimed that the grave contains 60,000.

Thank you Retardo, you truely are priceless.
The imbecility of your "you canít prove that so much as one" crap doesnít diminish with repetition, on the contrary. The only thing you can claim is that I donít have a photo of a given amount of a given type of human remains at my disposal. But given that

a) Photos are not the only source of proof and not even a very telling source of proof, essentially being mere illustrations of what becomes apparent from other, more telling evidence;

b) Any expectable amount of all expectable types of human remains related to the mass murder in question logically follows from proof of that mass murder, which is provided by the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence I have shown;

c) Itís not as if anyone had ever tried to collect and quantify human remains of the type youíre yelling for or any other type, and itís also not as if finding such human remains among much higher amounts of wood ash and soil would be a piece of cake, finding teeth even being more like finding a needle in a haystack (and that even under the highly unrealistic assumption that every victim had had a full set of adult teeth and all teeth had remained intact, see above);

d) Itís also not as if the finding of human remains by criminal investigators or archaeologists would necessarily mean that photographs of such remains are necessarily available to the public on the internet or elsewhere,

this doesnít mean that I canít prove the existence of human remains in amounts corresponding to the proven mass murder, let alone that thereís any reason to suspect that such human remains donít exist.

To further illustrate the utter imbecility of your "just one" rhetoric, letís look again at the questions at the end of my post # 1226 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1226 , which you have unsurprisingly run away from as from so many other questions before them:

Quote:
Between 120,000 and 225,000 people murdered by Stalinís thugs (which Gerdes probably believes to have been Jewish) are reportedly lying in the ground at Bykivnia near Kiev, see under http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm#Bykivnia.

Thatís between 3,600,000 and 6,750,000 teeth, Mr. Gerdes, as there was never any cremation involved.

And I submit that you cannot show me any of those 3,600,000 to 6,750,000 teeth, Mr. Gerdes. You cannot show me a photo of one tooth, or (like I have done in regard to Treblinka, Chelmno and Belzec) quote an eyewitness testimony, administrative document or archaeological report that mentions a specified or unspecified number of teeth found at Bykivnia. So my questions are the following:

1. Must we therefore suspect that the Bykivnia killings never took place, Mr. Gerdes?

[b]2. Does your having or not at your disposal documentation of a given quantity of a given type of human remains at Bykivnia tell us anything at all about the factuality of the reported Stalinist mass killing at Bykivnia? Yes or No?[b]

3. If the answer to the previous question is "Yes", what do you think it tells us, and why?

4. If the answer to the previous question is "No", do you understand how idiotic your "just one" mantra is? Yes or No?

Answer these questions, coward. Donít run away from them.
When are you going to answer these questions, Mr. Gerdes?