View Single Post
Old May 22nd, 2012 #3
Karl Radl
The Epitome of Evil
 
Karl Radl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Unseen University of New York
Posts: 3,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Mann View Post
Your conclusion on converts is largely incorrect. No mainstream Jewish denomination today regards converts to be in any way inferior.
Actually: it is completely correct. Orthodoxy (modern and traditional), the Hasidim, ultra-Orthodoxy, Conservatives and so forth all hold to the very specific injunctions in the Mishnah and the Gemara. I am not even going to bring up Rambam's or Caro's attitude to it. Even Schechter in 'Studies in Judaism' (you know the foundational document of Conservative Judaism) made it quite clear there was a distinction. That's of course unless you can demonstrate that Orthodoxy; the most populous jewish religion sect as far as I am aware, explicitly rejects the rulings of the Mishnah (on which all its halakahic interpretations are based).

Reform is odd, but it doesn't do away with the distinction in practice as I have even found it hinted at; although not explicitly stated, in Reform Judaism conversion manuals.

Quote:
I'm going to go as far as to say that sincere converts
And just what is a 'sincere convert'? That is kind of the problem isn't it? A 'sincere convert' in most forms of Judaism; yes even Reform, is someone who specifically convinces a panel (usually three but I've heard of more) of specially appointed rabbis that one is a jewish soul born into a non-jewish body.

Note the direct biological implication of that or are you going to play dumb?

Or to quote Noah Feldman:

'I didn’t want to seem paranoid, especially in front of my girlfriend, to whom I was by that time engaged. So I called my oldest school friend, who appeared in the photo, and asked for her explanation. “You’re kidding, right?” she said. My fiancée was Korean-American. Her presence implied the prospect of something that from the standpoint of Orthodox Jewish law could not be recognized: marriage to someone who was not Jewish. That hint was reason enough to keep us out.'

Source

Oh and before you claim it: jewishness is always defined in terms of lineage even in relation to converts. Converts are not exclusions to the rule, but rather are part of the rule as they are held to only be able to marry inferior classes of jew.

Or to quote Emmanuel Feldman:

'These are legitimate descriptions of the Jewish condition. God explicitly tells us in Leviticus 20:26, va'avdil etchem; "I have separated you from among the peoples to be Mine..." Yes, it is part of God's overall plan for mankind that the Jewish people should remain separate. The fact is that to be a holy people in a world that disdains holiness means to be a separate people.

It's interesting that the world seem to recognize this Jewish differentness intuitively. Even the assimilating Jew - who does not wear distinctively Jewish dress and does not practice anything distinctively Jewish, who is a citizen of the world and faithfully lives be the ways of society around him - even he is nevertheless pointed to as a Jew, as someone different from "the rest of us". This makes the assimilator very unhappy, but it probably makes God very happy, because jewish otherness is all part of His plan.' *

And

'The fact is that certain nations are superior to others in specific areas of endeavor. Yes, we believe that the Jewish people is chosen for its mission by God because it possesses certain God given talents; a clear vision and knowledge of God and how He wants mankind to live on His earth, and the ability to connect with God and with the sacred in life... The Jewish people was seen by God as having certain qualities – steadfastness, spiritual resilience, courage, faith, self-discipline – which made us the most suitable agent for bringing the concepts of God and holiness into the world. That is to say our national character.' **

* Emanuel Feldman, 1998, ’On Judaism: Conversations on being Jewish in Today's World’, 2nd Edition, Shaar Press: New York, p. 259
** Ibid, pp. 269-270

Oh and before you say it Feldman is a fairly significant orthodox jewish authority.

Quote:
that have loyally gained the trust of the Jewish community
Translation: they are prepared to serve the jews. After all that is what jews and Judaism directly demand: thou shalt serve no gods before me.

Quote:
have been held up as an example for Jews to follow.
Like who? Ruth the Moabitess? Have you forgotten the story of Hagar or Moses? Let alone the Prophets Ezra and Nehemiah.

Quote:
There are of course a small group of individuals (mainly ultra-orthodox) that view some converts as being Jews in name only.
You do realise that some of said 'small group of individuals' are huge like the various Chabad not least the Lubavitchers?

So much so they have a significant political party just for the Sephardim (let alone the Ashkenazim) ultra-Orthodox and Hasidim in Israel (Shas)?
__________________

Last edited by Karl Radl; May 22nd, 2012 at 12:39 PM.