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Originally Posted by Gerdes
Final Summation
The alleged photographic documentation of the "physical evidence" for the alleged murder of 870,000 jews at Treblinka, as presented by Roberto Muehlenkamp in her “debate” with Greg Gerdes:
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Another of your idiotic "recaps", moreover limited to photographic documentation and ignoring the site investigation reports as well as the documentary and eyewitness evidence, Gerdes?
Either your "White" buddies are as dumb and short of memory as you are, or they know your list by heart already and yawn every time you repeat it.
Can’t you be less of a bore, Gerdes?
How about answering the seven questions I asked you in my last post:
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1. Regarding the photo under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html that is captioned
«MASS GRAVE
If Treblinka, the boards were added to the bodies in course of a test burning. Usually the victims were buried in mass graves, later cremated on roasts.
Photo: Bundesarchiv No. 183-F0918-0201-011»
, answer the question what, if not a corner of one mass grave where the bodies have been covered with boards and what looks like tarpaulin sheets, you think this photograph shows.
2. Regarding the excavator photos shown under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html , answer the question what you think those excavators would have been doing in what you claim was a "transit camp".
3. Regarding the marked-up air photo shown under http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg , answer the question what, if not mass graves in a section of the camp where eyewitnesses described mass graves – namely what that would be compatible with your "transit camp" theory – the ground scarring shapes I pointed out are supposed to have been.
4. Regarding the ground photos shown under the following links:
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg
http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg
, answer the question what, if not parts of the former Treblinka extermination camp and especially the burial area described in the Polish site investigation reports of 13 November and 29 December 1945 quoted in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html, these photos are supposed to show.
5. Regarding the above-mentioned site investigation reports, answer the question why, i.e. on the basis of what rules or standards of evidence you can show us, you don’t include these written descriptions of the physical evidence on site in the record of physical evidence to the Treblinka mass killings.
6. Regarding the documentary and eyewitness evidence listed in my Topix post # 482 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p23#c482 , answer the question why, i.e. on the basis of what rules or standards of evidence you can show us, you don’t include this documentary and eyewitness evidence in the record of evidence to the Treblinka mass killings.
7. Regarding your claim that Treblinka was a "transit camp", answer the question where the about 750,000 people deported to Treblinka in 1942/43 are supposed to have been "transited" to from there, and show evidence regarding their transportation to such places and their accommodation there. As the Germans would have had no reason to destroy the records of an innocuous resettlement operation, there should be plenty such evidence around.
Just seven questions for you to answer, Mr. Gerdes. When you have reasonably answered these questions, I’ll agree to our moving on.
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Don’t keep running away, Mr. Chicken-shit.
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Originally Posted by Gerdes
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And why is that supposed to be a big deal, Gerdes?
Can you name a good reason, compatible with the evidentiary record of Treblinka, why I should necessarily have photographic documentation of teeth on the Treblinka site at my disposal?
No, you cannot.
Can you explain why Grossman’s eyewitness testimony and the Polish militia report I quoted are not sufficient evidence that teeth were lying around on the Treblinka site and were picked up by robbery diggers, which would be the only reason to ask for further evidence, photographic or other?
No, you cannot.
Can you even explain what any evidence to the presence of teeth on the Treblinka site is supposed to matter for the purpose of proving what happened at Treblinka, especially considering the physical, documentary and eyewitness evidence I have shown?
No, you cannot.
So do yourself a favor, Gerdes: drop the silly babbling about teeth. That’s well-meaning advice. If, of course, you insist in making a bloody fool of yourself, I have no objection to that.
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Originally Posted by Gerdes
# 4 - Bullets & Shell casings:
Roberta was unable to provide any physical evidence / photographic proof what-so-ever that so much as a single bullet or shell casing was ever found at Treblinka.
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So fucking what, Gerdes? There’s no reason compatible with the evidentiary record of Treblinka why even a single bullet or shell casing need to have been identified. The casings are likely to have been salvaged by the SS after each shooting (the Germans had a war going on and may not have wanted to waste the brass, you know), and identifying molten bullet lead among the mess found after the war on the Treblinka site is not exactly a piece of cake. On the other hand, conclusive eyewitness testimony provided at trials before West German courts, also by the shooters themselves, leaves no room for reasonable doubt about the existence of the "Lazarett" and the shootings that took place there. So it’s completely irrelevant whether or not bullets or shell casings were identified on site. Better get used to the idea.
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Originally Posted by Gerdes
# 5 - Photos of the camp itself taken from the outside:
Roberta was unable to provide any photographs what-so-ever of the alleged camp itself taken from outside of the camp. Not a single photo of this alleged monstrous death factory that allegedly operated for well over a year.
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Another false dilemma, Gerdes. There’s no reason compatible with the evidentiary record of Treblinka why any photograph of Treblinka taken from the outside should be in existence let alone at my disposal, and the only reason for your yelling for such photos is that you are sure they don’t exist (otherwise you’d keep your trap shut).
Ah, and every time you make a fuss about what photographs I "was not able" to show (big fucking deal), I’ll remind you of my unanswered questions regarding the photographs I did show:
1. Regarding the photo under
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html that is captioned
«MASS GRAVE
If Treblinka, the boards were added to the bodies in course of a test burning. Usually the victims were buried in mass graves, later cremated on roasts.
Photo: Bundesarchiv No. 183-F0918-0201-011»
, answer the question what, if not a corner of one mass grave where the bodies have been covered with boards and what looks like tarpaulin sheets, you think this photograph shows.
2. Regarding the excavator photos shown under
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html , answer the question what you think those excavators would have been doing in what you claim was a "transit camp".
3. Regarding the marked-up air photo shown under
http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg , answer the question what, if not mass graves in a section of the camp where eyewitnesses described mass graves – namely what that would be compatible with your "transit camp" theory – the ground scarring shapes I pointed out are supposed to have been.
4. Regarding the ground photos shown under the following links:
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg
http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg
, answer the question what, if not parts of the former Treblinka extermination camp and especially the burial area described in the Polish site investigation reports of 13 November and 29 December 1945 quoted in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … under
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html, these photos are supposed to show.
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Originally Posted by Gerdes
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Why, Gerdes, are you so scared of a couple of photographs that you now resort to calling their authenticity into question and trying to shift the burden of proof?
The photographs are linked to Treblinka by the sources I took them from, the accuracy of which you can provide no good reason to doubt. And they also happen to show things that correspond to what becomes apparent from site investigation reports and other descriptions of what the Treblinka site looked like when investigated by Polish criminal justice authorities. These descriptions include the following:
• The site investigation reports of 13 November and 29 December 1945, quoted in my article
Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html , repeatedly quoted from in this discussion and just as often unreasonably ignored by Gerdes.
• The description of the site, quoted from in the Polish newspaper article translated under
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506 , by a member of another delegation from Warsaw which apparently also investigated the Treblinka area, Karol Ogrodowczyk:
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"The fields are dug up and rummaged through, the pits are about 10 meters deep, bones are lying around and objects of all kinds, shoes, spoons, forks, chandeliers, hair of wigs worn by Jewesses. In the air hangs the stench of decomposing corpses. … The foul smell so numbed me and my colleagues that we vomited and felt an unusual rasping in the throat. (...) Under every tree seekers of gold and gems have dug holes (...) Between the trees cavort local peasants, eager to find treasures. When we ask them 'What are you doing here?' they give no answer."
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• The description of the site in Rachel Auerbach’s
In the Fields of Treblinka, quoted under
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/955...l#reply-95594:
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The Sandy Soil Yields Up Its Secret. Our car came to a stop. We got out: this was where the camp area began. According to our measurements, it is 15 hectares. A well-paved road runs parallel to the railroad tracks for about 1½ kilometers and then comes to a dead end. Another road branches out from it and comes to an end even sooner. The surface of both roads contains a weird mixture of coals and ashes from the pyres where the corpses of the inmates were cremated. The second road leads in the same direction as the "Road to Heaven," of which no trace is now left. Just a bit of the concrete foundations of a horses' stable - this is all that is left today of the camp buildings, the barbed wire fences, the barracks, the watchtowers, the gas chambers. Some of the buildings were burned down during the uprising, and the rest were carried off by human scavengers from neighboring villages after the arrival of the Red Army.
While the Germans were still here, the whole area had been plowed up and sown with lupine grass. And the lupine grass really grew and covered the whole surface with a green mask. It looked as if all the traces of crime had been wiped away. But since then, during the past year, the human jackals and hyenas have been coming to the burial ground and here is the picture that we saw:
Here and there, like patches of grass near the seashore, half* covered by the shifting sands, there were still little clumps of with*ered lupine. Not one level place in the whole area. Everything had been torn up and dug up, little hills and holes. And upon them, beneath them, and among them, all sorts of objects. Aluminum kettles and pans, enameled tin pots-blackened, dented, full of holes. Combs with teeth broken off, half-rotted soles from ladies' summer sandals, broken mirrors, leather billfolds. All this is near the station platform where the camp's first barbed wire fences had been.
We began our tour at the place where the transports had been unloaded, and we continued on the road which the Jews who were brought here had followed. What we saw here was the remnants of the Treblinka "Werterfassung." -Remnants of the huge piles of Jewish property which had been packed up and sent away, inciner*ated, cleared off, and yet still could not be completely cleared away. It was not possible to clear away every trace of what the hundreds
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of thousands of people who had passed through there had experienced. Here was the physical evidence; here were the corpora delicti.
Perhaps someone might wonder what sort of people they were who left such plentiful evidence of their truncated lives, to what nation they belonged. Well, look about you and you will see it for yourself:
Twisted Sabbath candlesticks-enough for whole collections. A scrap from a prayer shawl. just dug out of the ground, lying white and fresh, complete with a blue Star of David, is an elegant Warsaw armband (from the corner of Karmelicka and Leszno-the latest fashion in the ghetto). A whole pile of ladies' marriage wigs.
These must be unburned, stray remnants from some store.
The hair shorn off the living women had been turned into indus*trial raw materials, but it seems that the ritual wigs of the old, pious Jewish women had been set aside for better uses. Perhaps they could be sold, by way of a friendly "neutral" country, to Jews in America, for a good price, along with the Torah scrolls and Tal*mudic folios which had been carefully accumulated for this pur*pose, packed in cases and hidden away?
But the physical evidence was not limited to objects. As we moved further into the grounds, we walked over a field which was sown with human bones.
The bombs had uncovered the contents of the desecrated soil. Leg bones, ribs, pieces of spine, skulls big and small, short, and long, round and flat.
Skulls! ...
If only we could get an ethnologist to come here!
He could have made the most accurate anthropological meas*urements relating to the racial features of the Jewish people.
Or perhaps what was needed here would be a philosopher; a thinker, a Prince Hamlet of Denmark to stand up and deliver a gravedigger's speech, to look upon those skulls and speak directly to them.
"Anybody have a bag? Is there a bag around here? Let's take a bagful of bones with us!"
In a minute, a pile of bones had been scraped together. But there was no bag around and so we couldn't take any of the bones.
But then how much could one bag have held? What with all the cremations, we could have taken out whole carloads from there. If bones can be classed as relics, then Treblinka held relics sufficient to supply the entire Jewish people.
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This Is My Child's Foot! The further we went, the heavier the air became with the smell of death. We had already passed through the famous "grove," the sparse pine trees through which the "Road to Heaven" had run. We were now standing where the gas cham*bers had been, the huge mass graves and the pyres. In some places, the smell of death was still mingled with the odor of fire. Indeed, here and there we could see little piles of white ashes along with blackened bones, heaps of soot. All this had been buried several meters deep in the soil, mixed with sand and covered with more sand, but the explosions had brought it to the surface again. In one place the simultaneous explosion of several bombs had created a huge crater. Deep down in the hole, some outlines could be dimly seen through the fog.
"Those aren't just bones," says the district attorney. "There are still pieces of half-rotted corpses lying there, bunches of intestines."
By now the district attorney and the judge knew every nook and cranny here. They had been conducting their investigation for some time. They had examined both Jewish and non-Jewish wit*nesses, taken measurements and carried out minor excavations.
The Treblinka veterans were running back and forth, pointing things out, arguing with one another. They made mistakes and then began to remember the places again. They wanted to do something, to make some extravagant gestures, that would at least reflect their emotions, bound up as they were with this place. They wanted to gather bones. They leaped into ditches, reached their bare hands into rotted masses of corpses to show they were not repelled.
They did the right thing. Now we were just like the Muslim sectarians who carried their dead along in their caravans to Mecca, considering it their sacred duty to bear the smell of death with patience and love as they went along the road. That was how we felt in these fields, where there lay the last remains of our martyrs.
"Look there, at the edge of that hole," said the judge, "these are bones from a child's leg!" One of the Treblinka survivors rushed over. "Be careful!" said another. "There's still some flesh hanging from that leg!" But the one who had taken it was wrapping it up into a newspaper with much the same reverence as a pious Jew wrapping up an etrog [the citron fruit which is used in the Feast of Tabernacles and must remain unblemished]. He wrapped it with the skirt of his coat, then put it into his breast pocket and hugged it to his breast.
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So while all associated evidence indicates that the photographs in question were not only taken at Treblinka, but also convey just a feeble idea of what the place looked like when examined by examining judge Lukaszkiewicz and state attorney Maciejewski, by Karol Ogrodowczyk and by Rachel Auerbach, there are no indications known that the photos show anything
other than parts of the Treblinka site in 1945.
Therefore, it is not me who has to prove that these photographs were actually taken at Treblinka. It is Gerdes who has to prove that, contrary to what my sources say and all associated evidence indicates, the photos were
not actually taken at Treblinka.
I could do without the photos, as Gerdes well knows. They are just illustrations of what becomes apparent from other, more telling evidence, and my case stands with or without them. But if Gerdes is so afraid of them that he calls into question their authenticity, he should try substantiating his panicky "doubts".
Not that it matters and just for the purpose of amusement, as Gerdes opens his mouth so big yelling for "proof":
What exactly would you accept as proof that the photographs were taken at Treblinka, Mr. Gerdes?
Let’s hear so we may laugh.
Really, Gerdes, it's becoming increasingly obvious how desperately out of arguments you are. Thanks for again showing it so clearly.