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Old August 1st, 2009 #1
Alex Linder
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Default Vegetarians?

Are there any vegetarians here? What is your experience? How tall are you and how much do you weigh?

This is a serious thread, no bashing or flaming.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #2
Alex Linder
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What led you to go vegetarian?
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #3
Alex Linder
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Do we have any "raw food" types?
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #4
Alex Linder
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Paul Nison, guy who advocates eating all raw food, interesting interview (audio)

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Quantum...ith-Paul-Nison

David Klein (likely jew) advocates more or less same
http://www.livingnutrition.com/interview.html

Interesting Klein claims he cured himself of colitis by switching from junk food/meat diet to raw food diet, mostly fruit. Nison also eats wholly raw, but says people should eat 70% vegetables.

In some ways, I'm like a liberal mugged by reality. For forty years I ate the way most do, never had a problem, was always happy with high energy. Then I had a rude change, it came over me out of nowhere.

Today I am open to considering things I would have rejected out of hand yesterday, even though the "official" view, the view held by most M.D.s, is that bowel complaints Crohn's/ulcerative colitis, are NOT caused by diet. The official view is that they are an ununderstood mix of genetics, immune system and environment.

Have some experiences of my own to relate, but would like to hear from those successfully pursuing a thought-out diet for an extended time.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #5
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Default Savitri Devi

"I would not mind being born again if I were to be one of an Aryan family, kind to animals, vegetarian (as I have always been from childhood) and not opposed to me ideologically."
http://www.savitridevi.org/koehl_correspondence_12.html

Salubrious Living by Ben Klassen
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Boo...ous_Living.pdf

Last edited by albion; August 1st, 2009 at 05:53 PM.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #6
Robert Bandanza
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My care for animals. I do not want to take their innocent lives away. I am pro-gun though, but only for protection and sport. I have mentioned this already in the past though. I am sure under the search function, I swear I have already explained all my reasons.

But, I do eat dairy and eggs which makes me lacto-ovo. I have heard it is not too painful when cows are milked and when an egg is eaten, you are not eating a living thing(for the most part).

I sometimes enjoy watching on television when people are attacked by them because it is there way of saying don't fuck with us, we share this earth and they existed before humans. We destroy their living space and or natural habitats. That is why I think mass industrialization can only go so far. It is no longer beneficial. I was then, but not now. I am not anti-human(white), don't get me wrong, it just something I am compassionate with.

Last edited by Robert Bandanza; August 1st, 2009 at 11:52 AM.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #7
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Originally Posted by Robert Bandanza View Post
My care for animals. I do not want to take their innocent lives away. I am pro-gun though, but only for protection and sport. I have mentioned this already in the past though. I am sure under the search function, I swear I have already explained all my reasons.

But, I do eat dairy and eggs which makes me lacto-ovo. I have heard it is not too painful when cows are milked and when an egg is eaten, you are not eating a living thing(for the most part).

I sometimes enjoy watching on television when people are attacked by them because it is there way of saying don't fuck with us, we share this earth and they existed before humans. We destroy their living space and nature. I am not anti-human(white), don't get me wrong, it just something I am compassionate with.
I don't understand why you are here. Animals are a food source. Animals eat other animals or didn't you know that?

As far as Alex's original post and question I've been eating raw broccoli, carrots, cauliflower, radishes, celery, and many different fruits including apples, plums, berries, etc. Sometimes I blend the fruits and combine several of the vitamin-protein supplements together.

Joined a food coop out of Pensacola and when I'm over there I purchase various vitamin and other supplements. The food is to high priced and I'm trying to grow my own although not that successfully.

Eating raw fruits and vegetables just feels like the right thing to do although it doesn't comprise my entire diet.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #8
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Alex,

Give it a try. I'd also recommend a lot of probiotics like home-made sauerkraut, yogurt you make yourself from raw milk. Check out the book by Sandor Ellix Katz, "Wild Fermentation." Fermented vegetables are said to be superior to raw. The fermentation process gets the probiotic microbes going, and they partially break down the food for you.

Another thing to look into is "nutraceuticals" and "opc3." I'm not saying it's a miracle cure. I'm saying look into it and try it for 3 months and see what happens. If no positive effect, dump it.

Autoimmune diseases like Crohns bedevil medical science. I took pathophysiology, and they call autoimmune disorders "idiopathic," which is a fancy way of saying, "medical science doesn't have a clue." That's why you should try anything -- anything.

So my personal recommendation -- it's a 20 minute gentle qigong routine, downloadable for free:

http://www.falundafa.org/bul/audio-v...deo_video.html

Get the "exercise video" that is "All 5 in succession" 65 MB and it's a .wmv file. The instrucitons are in Chinese but it doesn't matter. Just follow what the Chinese guy does, and keep your feet pointed straight, knees just slightly bent, buttock muscles relaxed as though you are sitting on an invisible bar stool, lean slightly back, shoulders just slightly back, and flex your abdominal muscles just a little, and inhale/exhale in a way that makes your tummy protrude, like a baby breathing.

The idea of qigong is there is a spinning ball inside your abdomen. you wnat to make it spin really fast, and spin it in various directions. This will heat you up and balance your skeleton and restore a deep level of order to your body, curing whatever disease you may have, including autoimmune.

MIght as well try it. 20 minutes a day. If it doesn't work in 3 months, drop it, that's fine. I do this Falun Gong thing 2 or 3 times a week as a warmup to yoga. What happens is I am able to go much deeper into yoga poses thanks to the Falun Gong warmup. Also, it stokes up the qi energy in my abdomen. I really believe in this stuff. On a side note,the Falun Dafa is illegal in China, and the leading practitioners and teachers get jailed, tortured, executed, and their organs get sold. The founder, Li Hongzhi, who now lives in Queens, NYC, has said negative things about race-mixing, and says that gays have "black qi." So they are kind of like China's version of a radical dissident organization.
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Old August 1st, 2009 #9
Alex Linder
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Can you assholes follow one direction?

No NS/animal rights shit. Start thread somewhere else.

This is for diet discussion only, and polite discussion.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #10
Alex Linder
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Quote:
As far as Alex's original post and question I've been eating raw broccoli, carrots, cauliflower, radishes, celery, and many different fruits including apples, plums, berries, etc. Sometimes I blend the fruits and combine several of the vitamin-protein supplements together.

Joined a food coop out of Pensacola and when I'm over there I purchase various vitamin and other supplements. The food is to high priced and I'm trying to grow my own although not that successfully.

Eating raw fruits and vegetables just feels like the right thing to do although it doesn't comprise my entire diet.
Did you used to eat lots of fast food, or processed food, and then make a change? If so, why?
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #11
Alex Linder
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Quote:
I'd also recommend a lot of probiotics like home-made sauerkraut, yogurt you make yourself from raw milk. Check out the book by Sandor Ellix Katz, "Wild Fermentation." Fermented vegetables are said to be superior to raw. The fermentation process gets the probiotic microbes going, and they partially break down the food for you.
I will try this once I'm in position to, which I'm not now. As for probiotics, I've seen stuff both ways.

Diet and health - I cannot think of any other field in which there are competing claims that are nearly impossible to reconcile or judge between. Politics is the easiest thing in the world compared to diet/health, in my opinion. I can always spot who is lying or pulling punches and why when I read a political article; with diet it is much more difficult to do.

Quote:
Another thing to look into is "nutraceuticals" and "opc3." I'm not saying it's a miracle cure. I'm saying look into it and try it for 3 months and see what happens. If no positive effect, dump it.
'Nutraceuticals' and 'opc3' are new to me.

Quote:
Autoimmune diseases like Crohns bedevil medical science. I took pathophysiology, and they call autoimmune disorders "idiopathic," which is a fancy way of saying, "medical science doesn't have a clue." That's why you should try anything -- anything.
Yes. It's frankly amazing to hear a specialist tell you that you can eat/drink whatever you want, diet has nothing to do with it.

"You don't know what causes it...but you know that diet has nothing to do with it." That's my position. Of course, a desperate man will consider anything, and the people saying the MDs are wrong know that, and sell products based on it.

Quote:
So my personal recommendation -- it's a 20 minute gentle qigong routine, downloadable for free:

http://www.falundafa.org/bul/audio-v...deo_video.html

Get the "exercise video" that is "All 5 in succession" 65 MB and it's a .wmv file. The instrucitons are in Chinese but it doesn't matter. Just follow what the Chinese guy does, and keep your feet pointed straight, knees just slightly bent, buttock muscles relaxed as though you are sitting on an invisible bar stool, lean slightly back, shoulders just slightly back, and flex your abdominal muscles just a little, and inhale/exhale in a way that makes your tummy protrude, like a baby breathing.

The idea of qigong is there is a spinning ball inside your abdomen. you wnat to make it spin really fast, and spin it in various directions. This will heat you up and balance your skeleton and restore a deep level of order to your body, curing whatever disease you may have, including autoimmune.

MIght as well try it. 20 minutes a day. If it doesn't work in 3 months, drop it, that's fine. I do this Falun Gong thing 2 or 3 times a week as a warmup to yoga. What happens is I am able to go much deeper into yoga poses thanks to the Falun Gong warmup. Also, it stokes up the qi energy in my abdomen. I really believe in this stuff. On a side note,the Falun Dafa is illegal in China, and the leading practitioners and teachers get jailed, tortured, executed, and their organs get sold. The founder, Li Hongzhi, who now lives in Queens, NYC, has said negative things about race-mixing, and says that gays have "black qi." So they are kind of like China's version of a radical dissident organization.
Thanks, I might try it.

I'm combining two things here. The thread is about diet, but it's also about crohn's/colitis and possible cures or great-helps for it.

I have read a fair amount over the last two years. At this point I don't trust anything but bodily reactions. I listen respectfully to MDs and read with respect the opinions of the 'alternative-ists' (vegs and others advocating diet changes).

Klein/Nison, both of whom claim to have cured themselves of ulcerative colitis, advocate 100% raw food diet. It is interesting to note that while Nison advocates 70% vegetables, the rest fruit, Klein eats almost entirely fruit with some vegetables. Also interesting to note that both men are short to medium height and extremely thin.

Klein advocates a little exercise early, say jogging. Then eat fruit. Claims your digestion works best early and mid-day. Eat your big meal at mid day. Eat some fruit late. Don't eat anything big after 7pm. Both are very big on not eating big late, claiming humans are diurnal (day-active) and meant to sleep on empty stomach.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #12
Alex Linder
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Health beliefs I think are solid.

1) Soft drinks are bad for you.

2) Avoiding processed food is a good idea. (Roughly everything in a box, can, bottle.)

3) Drinking almost nothing but water is advisable.

4) Eating less is better than eating more.

Last edited by Alex Linder; August 1st, 2009 at 01:26 PM.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #13
Mike in Denver
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An excellent topic, and I hope it can be kept on track. As I've written in many posts here, I'm an omnivore. I eat meat, and lots of it.

However, when I was about 41, I was persuaded by a woman to try vegetarianism. [Motive: I was a year out of a divorce, and would have joined the Hari Krishnas, if that's what it took to be with a woman.]

Anyway, for two years I followed a strict vegetarian diet. I did continue to eat some cheese and yogurt--nothing else, no meat, no fish, no fowl, no eggs.

I have to admit, for that two years I felt extremely good. I don't really have health problems, but in those two years I had more energy, and was more mentally alert than before or since. I also lost weight, though I wasn't too overweight to start. As you might guess, soon after I broke up with the woman, I went back to eating meat.

There are a few problems with vegetarianism.

* Lack of vitamin B12 - solved by eating some milk products.

* Socially, it can be difficult.

* It can be quite boring. It's easy to grill some meat, bake a potato, cook a vegetable...and have a tasty, interesting meal. Making a vegetable meal twice a day can end up with a string of very dull meals. Interesting vegetarian meals usually require a good deal of preparation and cooking.

---

Raw food. This is a really fascinating topic. There are a lot of sites promoting this, though the ones I've found are all strict vegan. There used to be a site or two promoting raw food including raw meat, but I think those sites are gone. Not to move off topic, but I've always eaten and enjoyed raw beef, lamb, eggs, shellfish, tuna, and salmon.

I'm assuming that a raw diet would exclude grains, at least cooked grains, and beans. Also such a diet probably excludes any dairy including yogurt and that might eventually cause a problem with vitamin B12.

---

One thing is for sure. I'm guessing a full grown man could go on a vegetarian, vegan, or even raw food vegan diet for a year or so without a problem. Try it and see what happens. Sure would save money.

Mike
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Last edited by Mike in Denver; August 1st, 2009 at 01:09 PM.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #14
Alex Linder
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What I'm trying, in order to establish more solid beliefs - more principles. As Eric Thomson says, "principles protect people."

- exercise first thing - 2mi walk, for instance.
- eat fruit - 35 grapes or so, maybe a bananas, peaches + drink water or Gatorade*
- eat big meal mid-day, noon-4pm. include meat for energy. maybe chicken breast or pork chops, hard-boiled eggs, but stay away from cereals, breads, altho do eat baked potatoes. eat steamed or raw cauliflower, broccoli, tomatoes, other vegs
- eat some fruit late, maybe apples

It might be possible to get the energy meat provides from veg/fruit alone, but I have not found this myself. Going without meat for days leaves me utterly exhausted. However, I am not a cook, and there might be those who can prepare properly mixed vegetarian dishes that provide the energy one needs. Those with my problem already have low energy from continual drainage of nutrients, and anything that takes it away must be avoided absolutely.

Although the not-eating-late principle seems fairly established, as you can find it everywhere when you study, I have found it can cause insomnia. But my ordinary course was to eat heavy late at night during my night owl years. So I'm going to keep up and see how it goes over time.

* I don't think Gatorade is good for average people, altho it's nowhere near as bad as soft drinks. For colitis types with continual diarrhea, it might provide some help in restoring salts and electrolytes. Gatorade is expensive, and there might be homemade versions that are cheaper - ie, mix some salt and sugar with regular water.

Last edited by Alex Linder; August 1st, 2009 at 01:05 PM.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
Health beliefs I think are solid.

1) Soft drinks are bad for you.

2) Avoiding processed food is a good idea. (Roughly anything in a box, can, bottle.)

3) Drinking almost nothing but water is advisable.
Vegetarians think that if too much meat is bad for you that no meat at all is goo. Well, they are half right, eating more fruits and vegetables is a good idea, but eliminating meat leads to other health problems.

Vitamin B1, B2,B3,B6, & B12 deficiency which leads to immune deficiency and chronic fatigue.

Iron deficiency, which leads to chronic fatigue, irritability, immune deficiency and lightheadedness.

And protein deficiency, which leads to physical weakness and immune deficiency.


Eating a healthy amount of meat, and more fruit and veg is the answer.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #16
Robert Bandanza
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Gatorade is bad on the teeth. It is almost like drinking soda.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #17
Alex Linder
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Quote:
I have to admit, for that two years I felt extremely good. I don't really have health problems, but in those two years I had more energy, and was more mentally alert than before or since. I also lost weight, though I wasn't too overweight to start. As you might guess, soon after I broke up with the woman, I went back to eating meat.
I've heard similar claims from others. I have personally observed a friend become a vegetarian and grow extremely skinny, sickly and weak. Myself, a couple days without meat and I can barely move. I come from a meat background, and like you, although I love fruits and vegetables too and always have, meat has no substitute. My interest is not in eliminating meat but in verifying claims about bad meat vs good meat.

Quote:
There are a few problems with vegetarianism.

* Lack of vitamin B12 - solved by eating some milk products.
This is another thing I'm trying to verify: whether dairy is actually good for one or bad. The vegans/fruitarians I mentioned are wholly against dairy, every bit as much, or perhaps even more, than meat. The claims about probiotics in yogurt I am learning toward thinking bogus, in light of what I've read. Still open to being persuaded.

Quote:
* It can be quite boring. It's easy to grill some meat, bake a potato, cook a vegetable...and have a tasty, interesting meal. Making a vegetable meal twice a day can end up with a string of very dull meals. Interesting vegetarian meals usually require a good deal of preparation and cooking.
Totally agree. I simply can't give up potatoes and meat. I love them both. I love vegetables and fruit too. Only thing I've really never been able to develop a taste for, altho I can eat it if need be, is lettuce and salad.

Desperation has forced me to look into things I would not have considered. I definitely need to learn how to make some salads, with or without lettuce, that's one area I don't have any background in. I am able to cook pretty much everything else.

Quote:
Raw food. This is a really fascinating topic. There are a lot of sites promoting this, though the ones I've found are all strict vegan. There used to be a site or two promoting raw food including raw meat, but I think those sites are gone. Not to move off topic, but I've always eaten and enjoyed raw beef, lamb, eggs, shellfish, tuna, and salmon.
Me too. Nison is a very brusque, Bud White-type NYC guy who ate nothing but pizza. Now he's a Florida guy who eats nothing but vegetables. I notice that he is a tiny guy, and from my very limited experience not eating meat, I think I see why. I can believe you can live successfully avoiding meat, but it will make you skinny as hell. And like you, vegs can't duplicate meat's taste. If you have an acceptable level of health and energy, then it becomes a matter of taste and style. I don't think the extra health benefit one gets from avoiding meat entirely outweighs the delights meat provides. But I do think it's wise to be selective in eating meat, and not too eat it too much or too often. The other thing I've noticed from going days without eating meat is that when I return to it, the feeling is glorious. So I think the real lesson here is not to overeat and become sated. Undereat, don't overeat. Fast sometimes. Or meat-fast. Then come back and rejoice. Now, Nison and Klein claim that cooked meat is horrible for you; that cooked meat has very little nutritive value; that it sits and putrifies in your gut. I think they overstate, but I don't know for sure. Most of my relatives ate all kinds of meat their entire lives, lived robustly for ninety+ years, then died falling down stairs. I'm open to evidence on all these claims.

Quote:
I'm assuming that a raw diet would exclude grains, at least cooked grains, and beans. Also such a diet probably excludes any dairy including yogurt and that might eventually cause a problem with vitamin B12.
These guys advocate nuts, but only certain kinds prepared certain ways. They are very much against rice. They say it has no nutritional value and just ferments in the gut, causing bloating. I have seen the claim elsewhere, altho more often that white rice is bad, brown rice is good.


Quote:
One thing is for sure. I'm guessing a full grown man could go on a vegetarian, vegan, or even raw food vegan diet for a year of so without a problem. Try it and see what happens. Sure would save money.
Ha, yes and no. Produce is now to where pretty much any substantial fruit, say apple or tomato, is $1 apiece. Funny discrepancies, though. Actual Kirksville prices. You can buy the same amount of blueberries at Aldi for .99c and at Hy-Vee for 3.99. Melons are .99 and 2.59. Potatoes are 8 russet baking for 2.69 vs 4.00.

Here's what I think the deal is.

If you cut out the coke and the fast food (I don't agree it is junk food, necessarily), if you eat less than you normally do, if you eat lots of fruits and vegetables, and if you eat meat too, but less and not shitty processed meat -- you should drop weight quickly. You will begin to understand why Europeans are shaped the way they are, and Americans are shaped the way we are.

Last edited by Alex Linder; August 1st, 2009 at 01:31 PM.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #18
Alex Linder
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Originally Posted by Robert Bandanza View Post
Gatorade is bad on the teeth. It is almost like drinking soda.
It has a good amount of sugar.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #19
Alex Linder
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Originally Posted by cillian View Post
Vegetarians think that if too much meat is bad for you that no meat at all is goo. Well, they are half right, eating more fruits and vegetables is a good idea, but eliminating meat leads to other health problems.

Vitamin B1, B2,B3,B6, & B12 deficiency which leads to immune deficiency and chronic fatigue.

Iron deficiency, which leads to chronic fatigue, irritability, immune deficiency and lightheadedness.

And protein deficiency, which leads to physical weakness and immune deficiency.

Eating a healthy amount of meat, and more fruit and veg is the answer.
What kind of meat?

What time of day to eat it?

The vegan/fruitists are big on "combining" fruits, say, for complementary and ideal digestion. I have not read enough to know precisely what they mean, or what they advocate.

Not all meat is the same.
 
Old August 1st, 2009 #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
Are there any vegetarians here? What is your experience? How tall are you and how much do you weigh?

This is a serious thread, no bashing or flaming.
Tried the vegetarian route many moons ago just as a lark. I always like to try new things. Like one time I decided I wanted to bench press 300 pounds. Accomplished the feat after many months of weight training but my shoulder has never been the same since.

Anyway, started out at about 210 lbs, I'm 6-3. Stayed on the veg diet for about 4-5 months. Lost weight and went down to 190, felt weak, got sick. Gave it up.

Friend of mine who was a nutritionist explained it to me like this: It's not the veg diet that fucked me up. Humans can subsist and even thrive on a vegetarian diet. It was the vegetables themselves that were the problem. Store bought veggies contain no trace minerals. The body doesn't manufacture trace minerals and it's something you really need for optimum health. You must get them through dietary intake or you get sick and then die.

Store bought veggies are brought to you by agribusiness. The stuff they sell you looks good but the problem is they contain little or no trace minerals having been leached from the soil a million crops ago. They dump artificial fertilizers in the soil that is petroleum based and contains the N. P. K. trio.(nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium). That's it, that's pretty much all your getting is those three trace minerals when what you really need is about 50. Trace mineral deficiency is part of the explanation of the vast decline in health that our society is facing.

A lot of people think they can get the trace minerals they need through supplements(pills). Nope, those pill trace minerals are literally mined from the great Salt Lake. That's right, dey rocks. Dug out of the ground using bulldozers, excavators and dump trucks and then hauled to the factory where they are processed into pill form. The problem with the pills is the human body doesn't absorb these inorganic sourced rock based minerals very well. The particle size of the minerals being too big. Plant based minerals is the key. Plants change the organic minerals taken from the soil into Colloidal form. Sort of a pre digestive process. These Colloidal minerals are extremely small particles and apparently the absorption rate is close to 90%.

So how to get these plant based minerals into your system? Welp, a good local farmer who has rich soil, intelligent crop rotation and uses compost piles instead of chemical petro based fertilizers would be nice but for those of us who don't have that option there are plant based trace mineral supplements that can be purchased. I recommend that if you're going to go the veggie route. If you don't and simply rely on big chain store bought shit for your veg diet you're gonna die a slow death.

Hope this helps.
 
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