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Old August 14th, 2009 #1
Lauren Inniss
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Default Aryan subgroups?

Hello,

I am interested in learning about the Aryan "subgroups" that I have heard about - Nordic, Alpine, Mediterranean, and Slavic. Does anyone have any links or information about these distinctions?
 
Old August 14th, 2009 #2
Robert Bandanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauren Inniss View Post
Hello,

I am interested in learning about the Aryan "subgroups" that I have heard about - Nordic, Alpine, Mediterranean, and Slavic. Does anyone have any links or information about these distinctions?
Here is one site that pretty much sums it all up. It does not just show Nordid peoples.

http://nordish.com/

They are called subraces BTW.
 
Old September 6th, 2009 #3
Tulpar
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Aryan subraces:

Nordid
-Hallstatt
-Keltic
etc...

Cromagnid
-Dalofaelid
-Bruenn
etc...

Non-Aryan european subraces:

Mediterranid
-Atlantid
etc...

Alpinid
-Sudetid
etc...

"white" subraces altered by extra european influence and non-white subraces caucasized by white or Aryan elements:

-Baltid
-Irano-Nordid
-Aethiopid
-Scando-Lappid
-Berberid
-Armenid
-Anatolid
-Indid
-Pontid
etc...

Non-exhaustive list of course.
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Old September 7th, 2009 #4
George Witzgall
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tulpar, are these sub-groups (or sub-races) defined anthropologically (based on physical characteristics)? or genetically, using a clustering algorithm like STRUCTURE (you remember this from the "are russians white" thread)?

clearly the genetic data is more detailed and would lead to more quantifiable clustering into definitive sub-races (and races for that matter). thus in my opinion races and sub-races should be exclusively defined genetically.

when K=3 for the STRUCTURE algorithm, the braodly defined negroid, caucasoid, and mongoloid (and pacific islander for K=4) races are clearly in evidence for indigenous africans, europeans, and asians (and pacific islanders). this is a good start for helping to define the races.

then within the caucasid race are the indigenous european, semitic, etc... sub-races. and within the european subrace are the sub-groupings you refer to. does this sound about right?
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Last edited by George Witzgall; September 7th, 2009 at 12:07 AM.
 
Old September 7th, 2009 #5
Tulpar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Witzgall View Post
tulpar, are these sub-groups (or sub-races) defined anthropomorphically or genetically, using a clustering algorithm like STRUCTURE (you remember this from the "are russians white" thread)?
Anthro.


Quote:
Originally Posted by George Witzgall View Post
clearly the genetic data is more detailed and would lead to more quantificable clustering into definitive sub-races (and races for that matter). thus in my mind races and sub-races should be exclusively defined genetically.
Someone from a non-cromagnid subrace might pocess cromagnid component when analyzed, so I would say it is not too realiable for defining subrace.


Quote:
Originally Posted by George Witzgall View Post
then within the caucasid race are the indigenous european, semitic, etc... sub-races. and within the euro subrace are the sub-groupings you refer to. does this sound about right?
"Semitic" is a group of language and not a group of races or subracial group(s). Your average jew for example belongs to the Armenid category (Altered Taurids) as they pocess extreme dinaric characteristics, while you average semitic speaker in the near East fall under the mediterranid subrace. I am not familiar with the orientalid types, but I would say that they would fall under the "altered mediteranid" category, the Pontids are an example of altered mediteranid (East-Mediterranids altered by Uralid components.)

The main mediterranid types of Europe are the Atlanto-Mediterranid (Northern mediterraneans) and the Iberids (Southern mediterraneans.)

Quote:
Atlanto-Mediterranean or Iberid, is the phenotype brought by the first West European settlers around 45,000 years ago. The main difference with the East-Med, is that is not so Dolicocephalic pronounced, and Brachycephalism is not uncommon. The hair colour can vary from dark-blond to dark-brown, but the most common is brown, eye colour can vary from brown to grey.
This race remains more pure in Ireland, Wales, the Basque Country, Brittany and some parts of Scotland. It's found all over the Atlantic European coast but no so pure. It's majoritary in Spain, with few levels of East-Med and Nordic influence, and it is found in England, Denmark, the Netherlands and France but so mixed with the Nordic subrace that could be considered as a different subrace (Nord-Atlantid).

The second one is the original subrace of the first populations of the Middle East. A Neolithic subrace which expanded through the Mediterranean Sea 8,000 years ago. Mainly Dolicocephalic, blondism is not rare, though brunette is more common, eye colour can vary from dark-brown to blue. The pure form of this subrace is almost extinct as a cause of the Negroid influence in most of the Middle East, although it can be found almost pure in isolated populations in Syria and some Berberic villages in the Algerian Kabylia.
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Old September 7th, 2009 #6
George Witzgall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulpar View Post
Anthro.
hmm I would prefer if races/sub-races were defined genetically since physical characteristics are subject to environmental factors (e.g. injuries, or variations in hormonal levels, etc..). it is too fuzzy to group people anthropologically.

edit: so I take it aryan is the best, which is the best sub-race within aryan? this is a joke btw..
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Old July 31st, 2012 #7
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is nord-indid or Indian's from north-western part of India are sub-race of Aryan race....
according to dna studies they have almost 70% r1a1*
 
Old September 15th, 2009 #8
Ulysses Crane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulpar View Post
Aryan subraces:


Cromagnid
-Dalofaelid
-Bruenn
etc...
I thought Cromagnids were present in Europe before the Aryan invasion? If so, how would they be Aryan? I say this as a Dalofaelid myself.
 
Old September 16th, 2009 #9
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Originally Posted by Ulysses Crane View Post
I thought Cromagnids were present in Europe before the Aryan invasion? If so, how would they be Aryan? I say this as a Dalofaelid myself.
That is to each person to decide. There is for example an ongoing debate on whether the Scotts are "germanic" enough, some people view them as germanic enough whilst others view them as non-germanics.

The same kind of "debate" could be argued about the Cromagnids, they are afterall the oldest people of Europe and unlike the other tribal subraces they are the ones who have the most Aryanic influence to them. And they are certainly closer to being considered "Aryan" than the mediterranids.

It shows as the Irano-Nordid subrace is quite present where the Aryan Kingdom was settled, even though this is proof of remnants from the Aryan presence, of course this type is not "Aryan" since it fell to race-mixing with that of the ones from the non-Aryan variety.
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Old September 10th, 2009 #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Bandanza View Post
Here is one site that pretty much sums it all up. It does not just show Nordid peoples.

http://nordish.com/

They are called subraces BTW.
SNPA (Nordish.com) is now located on Apricity, here:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/

You may also be interested in the work of Richard MCculloch, who collaborated with the SNPA intensively and has picked up the torch of men such as Wilmot Robertson in defending Northern European genetic interests. You can find his excellent web site, which contains a great deal of information regarding Physical Anthropology, here:

http://www.racialcompact.com/

I also recommend you take a look at Karl Earlson's research, particularly if you're interested in ancient history:

http://www.white-history.com/earlson/index.htm

Of course, nothing is better than having an actual book to read. If you ever see a copy of Dr. Carleton Coon's The Races of Europe, which is long out of print, grab it! Dr. Hans F.K Günther is also a great resource. If you don't speak German, there is an English language translation of his Racial Elements of European history, which can be found rather cheaply at places like abebooks.com. Richard McCulloch's four books -- The Racial Compact (1994), The Nordish Quest (1989), Destiny of Angels (1986), and The Ideal and Destiny (1982) --are available for purchase through his site.

One last note: I believe the SNPA's most recent incarnation is not its finest. Much of the material from Günther was phased out, for example; this may have something to do with the Draconian laws in Europe. You can see its previous incarnations at archive.org
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Old September 10th, 2009 #11
Lauren Inniss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TowardWewelsburg View Post
SNPA (Nordish.com) is now located on Apricity, here:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/

You may also be interested in the work of Richard MCculloch, who collaborated with the SNPA intensively and has picked up the torch of men such as Wilmot Robertson in defending Northern European genetic interests. You can find his excellent web site, which contains a great deal of information regarding Physical Anthropology, here:

http://www.racialcompact.com/

I also recommend you take a look at Karl Earlson's research, particularly if you're interested in ancient history:

http://www.white-history.com/earlson/index.htm

Of course, nothing is better than having an actual book to read. If you ever see a copy of Dr. Carleton Coon's The Races of Europe, which is long out of print, grab it! Dr. Hans F.K Günther is also a great resource. If you don't speak German, there is an English language translation of his Racial Elements of European history, which can be found rather cheaply at places like abebooks.com. Richard McCulloch's four books -- The Racial Compact (1994), The Nordish Quest (1989), Destiny of Angels (1986), and The Ideal and Destiny (1982) --are available for purchase through his site.

One last note: I believe the SNPA's most recent incarnation is not its finest. Much of the material from Günther was phased out, for example; this may have something to do with the Draconian laws in Europe. You can see its previous incarnations at archive.org
Thank you very much! I have a lot to read now
 
Old September 10th, 2009 #12
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There are just three root races....black, White and yellow; anything else is the result of race mixing.
There are no White racial sub-groups, there is only White or non-White.
 
Old September 10th, 2009 #13
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Originally Posted by hengest View Post
There are just three root races....black, White and yellow; anything else is the result of race mixing.
There are no White racial sub-groups, there is only White or non-White.
This simply isn't the case. To start with, there are four primary races: Negroid, Mongoloid, Europid, Australoid. In fact, Dr. Coon discarded the term Negroid in favour of Congoid due to the fact that the former term was associated almost exclusively with skin colour. The Australian aborigines do not belong to the same race as the Negroes of Africa.

While there are different systems of taxonomy in the realm of Physical Anthropology (Ripley, Coon, Woltmann, Hooton, Günther, etc.), which can make some of this terminology confusing when it is used without a frame of reference, such as a citation, the fact remains that genetic cleavages (sub-races) do exist within the European people. It doesn't matter what you choose to call them, but they do exist and can be quantified.
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Old September 11th, 2009 #14
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This subject has already been critiqued before and no one has ever competently answered to the critique.


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Show me where this "pure Nordic race" of yours ever existed in history. You can't. None of you can. None of you can demonstrate that there was ever a population of Aryans in which all phenotypes weren't present. None of you can demonstrate that there once existed a "Nordic" population, as you imagine it, which subsequently influenced and was influenced by other European populations to produce what you think is a motley crew.

That's why all this talk about a "Nordic race" is nonsense. You are arbitrarily picking out a particular phenotype present in Aryan populations, and inferring from this that these are the remnants of a race which has left its presence in European populations through admixture, without any historical or genetic evidence to the point. It's hocus pocus. Hilarious even. Most hilarious of all is that you're not even aware of the underlying assumptions.
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=930013

What's the point of doing genetic tests when you cannot find a population? Every single species biologists have classified through sequencing have had an actual physical population that could be identified, this is a paramount principal which most seem completely ignorant and blind to. If you cannot find a consistently interbreeding stable population within some time frame you have absolutely no basis whatsoever to come to the conclusion that there exists a species (or sub race as you like to say) where you think there is one.

At any rate the classical heroes - such as Grant and Guenthar didn't even contribute anything to this field, that is they had nothing unique to give anthropologically. The sub racial idea and "discovery" of the Nord was done by Deniker (Albeit commendably without any ideology) all Guenthar and Grant did was tag on their own opinions and historical outlook, basically they were thinking up a novel background for these sub races by observing Europid history. Comically, this outlook on history was rejected by the Third Reich itself (Which in all had only 5% pure Nords , meaning that this forum has approximately 0.00% Nords ) . In the end the only person worth recognizing for any sort of real work would probably be Deniker as someone who studied haplotype but failed to realize that what he was seeing was diversity . There is no sub race of Drosophilia with white eye color, or red eye color, or brown eye color that is genetic diversity at work if every novel genetic snippet made us a sub race then it would be viable to just say that each individual is his own sub race, if that is so what is the purpose of such a label to begin with? Species is a meaningful, well developed concept, sub race is not.

Last edited by psychologicalshock; September 11th, 2009 at 08:30 PM.
 
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