Archeological Investigations of Treblinka

[Greg Gerdes]

Retardo:

"I’ve accepted the nafcash challenge to provide proof of one mass grave and its contents of at least 2,500 (Sobibor) or 8,700 (Treblinka)."


Then what are you waiting for you greasy fag?


Retardo:

"I have proven whatever amount of whatever type of human remains corresponds to the killing and cremation of at least well over 700,000 people at Treblinka and at least about 150,000 people at Sobibor."


You "have proven?" Really? Then what are you waiting for you greasy fag?


Retardo:

"Will you accept as proof assumptions based on estimates?"


Uhmmmmm, no dull one. What I will accept as proof is proof.


Retardo:

"You see, Prof. Kola found huge mass graves at Sobibor."


Reallly? Then show us a photo of these alleged "huge mass graves" (All 7 of them.)


Retardo:

"That’s how we know there are lots of human remains in this area."


Then proving that just one of the alleged "huge mass graves" contains the remains of just 1% of the alleged mass murder would be childs play.

What are you waiting for stupid?


My question to the dull one:

And while you're at it dull one, can you show us just:

ONE pound of crushed bone at Treblinka and Sobibor?

ONE tooth at Treblinka and Sobibor?


Retardo's answer:

"I don’t know if any of the photos I have shown so far shows the specified quantity of the type of human remain specified in your first question, and I also don’t think I have a photo showing a tooth found at either camp, at least a natural one."


"At least not a natural one?" LOL!!!! Priceless.


Well yes stupid, we've known all along that you had nothing. But at least you've finally admitted that you can't prove that so much as one pound of crushed bone or even so much as one real tooth exists at Treblinka or Sobibor.

Thank you Retardo, you truely are priceless.

[Greg Gerdes]

So we have 7 alleged "huge mass graves" at Sobibor, 6 alleged "huge mass graves" at Treblinka and 1 "huge mass grave" (#10) at Belzec.

14 "huge mass graves" in all, allegedly containing the remains of 1.180 million jews, which would equal 8 1/4 million pounds of crushed bone (not couning any ash) and 36 million teeth.

The number of single teeth (Not one of which could have been destroyed by the physically impossible "cremation" methods claimed by the "eyewitnesses," yet accepted by our resident retard retardo), that has been located at Treblinka and Sobibor to date?

ZERO.

And how many have been located in Belzecs grave #10 retardo? (Why do you refuse to answer this simple question?)

We will get to this soon.


And the number of pounds of crushed bone that the dull one has proven exist at said sites to date?

ZERO.

[Greg Gerdes]

Roberta:


"Am I a male homosexual or a woman? Which of them is it, Gerdes?"


Well, actually funny boy, I think you're a homosexual transvestite who's in the middle of a sex change procedure. So my answer would have to be - both.

[Greg Gerdes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
1 - How much human remains did Kola actually find in Belzecs grave #10?

Retardo:

"As much as can be reasonably estimated based on his description."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Priceless!

So we now have - "assumptions based on estimates based on descriptions!"

Thank you so much dull one -BTW, have I ever told you that you're priceless?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
2 - Out of the alleged 1,920,000 teeth allegedly in said "huge mass grave," how many teeth did he find?

Retardo:

We don’t know how many teeth he found. It’s a silly and pointless question based on one assumption that is speculative and another that is as wrong as can be, but I have already answered it nevertheless... The answer to this silly question (reformulated so as to lessen its stupidity) has been provided: we don’t know how many teeth Prof. Kola found among the crematory remains in grave # 10, if any, because he provides no breakdown of the “crematory remains” found... The question has been answered, Mr. Gerdes. If you think that my answer is wrong and Prof. Kola’s descriptions of the mass graves, or any other part of his report, contain sufficient information to establish how many teeth he found in a given grave, then please provide the respective quote or excerpt from Prof. Kola’s Belzec report. I shall then stand corrected on the reply I gave, but this will not mean that I did what you compulsively do all the time, i.e. lie. A lie is a deliberate statement against better knowledge, my dear Gerdes. What better knowledge contrary to my answer, and becoming apparent from Prof. Kola’s report, am I supposed to have had? Please tell me... Question about teeth has been answered to the best of my knowledge.


Now look at retardo's - topix post #762:

Not that it matters because Gerdes’ demand is as idiotic as ever, but I can prove the existence of at least one loose canine tooth and of as many teeth as the bodies in wax-fat transformation found by Kola’s drilling can be expected to contain. Both are mentioned in the core samples from grave # 10 shown under http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...laFigure13.jpg


The lying jewbitch new the answer all along.


One tooth out of an alleged 1,920,000!


How many lies have we caught you in now retardo? Hundreds yes, have you gone over 1,000?

My assumption based on estimates is yes you have.

[Greg Gerdes]

Let's see that again:

"I never claimed that the victims of Treblinka disappeared "without leaving a trace", on the contrary... I never claimed that all teeth were reduced to tooth meal after incineration, on the contrary... I provided two sources expressly mentioning teeth on the grounds of Treblinka... Grossman may have got measurements and other data wrong in his rendering of what he learned from the survivors he interviewed... But there’s no reason to assume that he was wrong about what he saw himself during his site visit, including the above-mentioned teeth... Any particular reason why this should not be enough to conclude that teeth were lying around on the Treblinka site when Grossman visited it? Gerdes omits my reasonable explanation for expecting teeth to have been among the human remains mentioned in the site investigation reports, even though there is no express mention of teeth in these reports... It just means they didn’t crush <all> of them, as I have pointed out over and over again every time you accused me of having claimed that <all> teeth were reduced to tooth meal. With millions of ashed teeth to crush within half a year or so, quite a few must have been overlooked. Duh!... Note that Gerdes is trying to discredit Grossman’s description by setting it against a supposed claim – which I never made – that <all> teeth were crushed... Actually, as Gerdes well knows, I never claimed that the crushing of ashed teeth following incineration at Treblinka led to the obliteration of <all> of these teeth. In the mass graves, according to Kola, "there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay". These remains may well include teeth, lots of them."


Yes Retardo. But not just "lots," allegedly - 36 million.

And let's not forget the alleged 8.25 million pounds of crushed bone.

All allegedly in 14 "huge mass graves."

That, out of all the physical evidence that retardo herself insists, over and over - never disappeared "without leaving a trace."

Yes, retardo insists that she never bought into the "magically disappearing jew theory."

But she can't prove the existence of any more than one single tooth.

Now show us where the other 35,999,999 teeth are stupid.

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

Well, let’s see what poor little Gerdes has got today.

Post # 1216:

A copy-and-paste repetition of post # 1200, commented in my post # 1213 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...postcount=1213 .

Post # 1218:

Poor Gerdes tries to be smart and ends up showing what a dumb fuck he is, as so often before. In my post # 1213, I wrote the following:

The fragility of teeth subjected to fire is discussed, for instance, in an article in the 4/1990 issue of the Journal of Forensic Science, written by Harry H. Minces, Hugh E. Berryman, G. Allen Murray and Richard L. Dickens, that is headed "Methods for Physical Stabilization of Ashed Teeth in Incinerated Remains" and refers to methods "for physically stabilizing the extremely fragile ashed teeth[my emphasis] that are often encountered in incinerated human remains". The authors are not talking about cremation in a crematorium, but about incineration in cars following traffic accidents, fires in buildings and such. So whoever claims that teeth would not be destroyed in or after an open-air cremation process at very high temperatures (it was not possible to go near the fire, according to eyewitnesses) is obviously full of shit.

in response to Gerdes’ idiotic claim that:

Not only would it be impossible to "cremate" a single body like this, it would be even harder to "destroy" so much as a single tooth.

What I’m hereby saying is that, contrary to what Gerdes claims, teeth tend to be destroyed in a hot fire, or made so fragile that they will easily crumbled or be crushed thereafter.

What I’m not saying, of course, is that every single tooth would be destroyed by the fire or crumble or be crushed thereafter.

After I have shown and keep referring to eyewitness and documentary evidence that mentions teeth lying around or picked up by robbery diggers, stinking liar Gerdes should know better than try to pin so lame a straw-man on me.

A no less primitive and mendacious straw-man is found at the end of post # 1218:

Originally Posted by Gerdes

And what "fire" dull one? You mean the fire where the bodies of women were used for kindling the fires, where all it takes is a match to light them, where the corpses burned well enough without extra fuel, where pans would be placed beneath the racks to catch the fat as it ran off, where Blood too was found to be first-class combustion material, where the highly original discovery that the bodies of women burned better than those of men, where once the bodies caught fire they would continue burning by themselves? Is that the fire you are talking about dull one? The one that defies the laws of nature?

The answer to this hysterical howling is:

No, my dear friend.

I’m referring to the incineration procedure as described by sober eyewitnesses like SS-man Heinrich Matthes, quoted in my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...norant_03.html :

At that time SS <em>Oberscharführer</em> or <em>Hauptscharführer</em> [Herbert] Floss, who, as I assume, was previously in another extermination camp, arrived. He was in charge of the arrangements for cremating the corpses. The cremation took place in such a way that railway lines and concrete blocks were placed together. The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with petrol. In that way not only the newly accumulated corpses were cremated, but also those taken out from the graves.

and Ukrainian guard Pavel Vladimirovich Leleko, quoted in my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...rather_18.html :

An incinerator from the burning of bodies was situated about 10 meters beyond the large gas chamber building. It had the shape of a cement pit about one meter deep and 20 meters long. A series of furnaces covered on the top with four rows of rails extended along the entire length of one of the walls of the pit. The bodies were laid on the rails, caught fire from the flames burning in the furnaces and burned. About 1000 bodies were burned simultaneously. The burning process lasted up to five hours.

I’m referring to the difference between the burning of decomposed, dehydrated corpses, which for reasons explained under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...belzec_28.html required relatively little fuel, and the burning of "fresh" corpses, which required higher amounts of fuel. A quote from this article:

The following excerpt from Yitzhak Arad’s book about the extermination camps of Aktion Reinhard(t) shows that my above assumptions and conclusions are not merely of a theoretical nature but correspond to the experiences with the burning of the corpses testified to by camp staff and permanent inmates of the "Reinhard(t)" camps, on which Arad’s description is presumably based. Thus from Treblinka it was reported that, unlike the corpses burned right after the gassing in the camp’s final phase, which had to be sprayed with considerable amounts of liquid fuel, the corpses taken out of the mass graves required no additional flammables beyond those that were laid under the incineration grids for lighting the fire:
[…]After the cremation installation had been constructed, the process of removing the bodies from the pits began. The work was initiated by a single excavator; later, a second excavator was brought in. The shovel’s scoop removed six to eight corpses with each dip and dumped them on the edge of the pit. A special team of prisoners, working in twos, transferred the corpses to the crematorium on stretchers. There, another special team, called the "burning group" (Feuerkolonne) removed the corpses from the stretchers and arranged them in layers on the roaster to a height of two meters. Between 2,000 and 2,500 bodies – sometimes up to 3,000 – would be piled on the roaster. When all was ready, dry wood and branches, which had been laid under the roaster, were ignited. The entire construction, with the bodies, was quickly engulfed in fire. The railings would glow from the heat, and the flames would reach a height of up to 10 meters.
At first an inflammable liquid was poured onto the bodies to help them burn, but later this was considered unnecessary; the SS men in charge of the cremation became convinced that the corpses burned well enough without extra fuel.
[…]
The bodies of victims brought to Treblinka in transports arriving after the body-burning began were taken directly from the gas chambers of the roasters and were not buried in the ditches. These bodies did not burn as well as those removed from the ditches and had to be sprayed with fuel before they would burn.[…]

Source: Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, pages 173 f. Emphases are mine.

Despite some less-than-objective outbursts by survivor eyewitnesses, paraded out of context by straw-man toting "Revisionist" freaks, the objective descriptions of witnesses like Matthes, Leleko are not contradicted in their essence by survivor eyewitness testimonies. Eliahu Rosenberg, for instance, described the burning process as follows (see under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/554...ml#reply-55419 , emphasis added):

"After Himmler inspected the camp he ordered the burning of all the bodies lying in the pit [...] For this purpose, two iron rails were placed on the ground parallel to each other, and the bodies that were dug out of the pit with excavators were stacked on top of each other like fire logs. It frequently happened that the corpses, especially those just freshly killed, didn't burn well, and so we had to pour gasoline over them [...] At that time we had only one burning site, and of course that wasn't enough, since we couldn't burn more than a hundred bodies a day. An SS-Oberscharfhrer, Herbert Floss by name, was brought in from the neighboring camp [...] He set up five or six burning sites and also introduced a new way to layer the bodies [...]"[90]

So much for the "all it takes is a match to light them" – straw-man, which IIRC is based on an emotional outburst by Rosenberg as a witness at the Demjanjuk trial. As to the "bodies of women were used for kindling the fires" – straw-man, that was dealt with in my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...norant_03.html , from which the following quote is taken:

2. Bud’s second attempt to cheat his viewers is rather obvious. Bud points out the following passages of Wiernik’s account, which can be found in Chapter 9 of A Year in Treblinka:

It turned out that bodies of women burned more easily than those of men. Accordingly, the bodies of women were used for kindling the fires.
and claims (by asking a rhetorical question) that Wiernik tried to make believe that the women burned «on their own, like wood».

This is nonsense, of course. The context provided by other evidence shows that what Wiernik probably meant was that the bodies of women, which would burn better than those of man due to their higher fat content, were placed at the bottom of a pile of corpses to be incinerated so that they might help the incineration of the less fatty male corpses above them. This practice was described by another eyewitness, Yechiel Reichman, who is quoted as follows on page 175 of Yitzhak Arad’s book Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps (emphases are mine):

The SS "expert" on body burning ordered us to put women, particularly fat women, on the first layer of the grill, face down. The second layer could consist of whatever was brought – men, women, or children – and so on, layer on top of layer … Then the "expert" ordered us to lay dry branches under the grill and to light them. Within a few minutes the fire would take so it was difficult to approach the crematorium from as far as 50 meters away ...

As we can see, the use of women for "kindling" in the way described by Reichman did not exclude the use of external flammables, expressly mentioned by this witness. This shows that there is no reason to assume that Wiernik intended to exclude the use of wood or other flammables when stating that the bodies of women were used for "kindling the fires"; he might have simply considered the use of wood or other external flammables as a given and therefore not worth mentioning. But actually Wiernik did mention other flammables in his description of the procedure in question. For if we read a little further on in Chapter 9 from the passage pointed out by Bud, we find the following:

Nevertheless, the results were very poor. The corpses were soaked in gasoline. This entailed considerable expense and the results were inadequate; the male corpses simply would not burn.

The text in Bud’s version reads as follows:

The results were very poor. The male corpses would not burn at all, although they were sprinkled with benzine. The expense was considerable and the results inadequate.

Not only did Wiernik clearly state that an external flammable – gasoline – was used to burn the corpses, he also pointed out that this procedure was ineffective and very expensive, because "the male corpses simply would not burn" despite the female bodies placed at the bottom of the piles of bodies to be burned and the gasoline that these piles were doused with.

So how come Bud didn’t tell his viewers about this passage, which completely invalidates his claim that Wiernik tried to make believe that women burned «on their own, like wood»? Did he miss it? Hardly so, as we can expect Bud to have read Wiernik’s account very carefully, looking for passages he could make a fuss about. The conclusion is inescapable that our friend Bud simply lied to his viewers, by deliberately omitting a passage that invalidated his claim.

Do I still have to tell you what you can do with your straw-men snippets dishonestly quoted out of context from eyewitness testimonies, Mr. Gerdes?

As I pointed out on my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...rather_18.html , the burning process at Treblinka and the other AR camps was essentially the same that was applied on the Dresden Altmarkt following the bombing on 13/14 February 1945, where 6,865 victims of the attack were successfully reduced to ashes and bone fragments, only more sophisticated, on a much larger scale and over a much longer period.

If you want to picture what grid cremation at the AR camps was like, take this picture from the Dresden Altmarkt:



and imagine a much larger grid over a pit containing the external flammables used to set the bodies on fire, and the ashes and bone fragments you see in the foreground of the Dresden photo in much larger quantity.

The Dresden Altmarkt cremations were a small-scale and more improvised and primitive version of cremations at the AR camps. But the principle was the same, and so was the end result.

As to your dreary, boring and endlessly repeated "not able to prove so much as a single this-and-that" - babbling, I don’t feel like repeating myself every time you spout that crappy rhetoric. As I have often explained to you, proof of every single body in wax fax-fat transformation, tooth, bone fragment, pound of crushed bone or other type of human remains that was left at the killing sites by the mass killing logically follows from proof of the mass killing, its scale and the body disposal procedure adopted, which proof is provided by the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence to the mass killing, its scale and the body disposal procedure adopted, including but not limited to the exhibits mentioned in my post # 777 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=777, complemented and further corroborated as concerns Sobibor by:

a) Photographs of core samples:







(When will you stop running away from my questions regarding these core samples, Mr. Gerdes?)

b) Photographs of bone fragments scattered on the Sobibor site:

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....0Fragment.html

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....he%20sand.html

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....fragments.html

(Ever thought how hard it would be to find such bone fragments on the Sobibor site if they were not lying around all over the place?)

c) A map from Prof. Kola’s archaeological investigation in 2001, of which a copy, which I’m trying to obtain permission to publish, is in my possession.

d) An air photo:



showing part of the area around the circular monument that is part of the Sobibor memorial:



with lush green areas signaling the presence of human remains below ground in areas where mass graves are shown on the map, presumably pursuant to Prof. Kola's archaeological investigation in 2001.

e) A satellite photo under http://maps.pomocnik.com/satellite-maps/?map=4194 , kindly provided by yourself and already discussed in the updates:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...st-update.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...st-update.html

of my blog article about the mass graves at Sobibor under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...t-sobibor.html , duly crediting your valuable contribution to the deconstruction of "Revisionist" articles of faith.

And that, my dear Gerdes, is true independently of how many photographs of what quantities of what types of human remains I have at my disposal to show you, as even a chimp like you should be able to understand.

How about focusing on the evidence that is on the table instead of hiding behind irrelevant "let’s see just one photo of this-and-that quantity of this-and-that type of human remains at this-and-that place" as becomes the whimpering coward you have amply shown to be?

Post # 1219:

This post consists of a number of hysterical, foaming-at-the mouth questions.

Originally Posted by Gerdes

Retardo:

"I'm not saying that any graves disappeared... Regarding Treblinka, Krege found exactly what he had hoped not to find."


If Krege found it, you should be able to find it.


Retardo:

"I don’t know if Krege found this particular pit."


Then what did he find stupid? You say - "he found exactly what he had hoped not to find.

Subsoil disturbances compatible with the presence of mass graves, my dear hysteric. See my post # 777 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=777 , item I.2, Source Two.

Originally Posted by Gerdes

If Krege found it, you should be able to find it.

Sure. Just buy me a GPR, Mr. Gerdes. And your paying the fees of an expert handler would also be appreciated. The required permissions I would try to obtain.

Originally Posted by Gerdes

Where is it stupid?

What, the soil disturbances compatible with mass graves in the area of Treblinka? In the sections of that area shown on the few scans published by Krege. See my post # 777 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=777 , item I.2, Source Two.

Originally Posted by Gerdes

Retardo:

"As to the volume of the cone:

Diameter d = 25 meters

Radius r = 12.5 meters

Height h = 7.5 meters, minus 2 meters for soil cover = 5.5 meters

Volume V = П x r2 x h = 3.14 x 156.25 x 5.5 = 2,698.44 cubic meters. Half thereof ashes and other partial human remains = 1,349.22 cubic meters of ashes and other partial human remains.

1,349.22 cubic meters of ashes and other partial human remains correspond to how many human beings, Mr. Gerdes?"

Over 1%. Now, you claim that none of the graves disapeared. So where is this pit filled with 1,349.22 cubic meters of human remains and teeth stupid?

In the former "death camp" section of Treblinka, no doubt about that.

Originally Posted by Gerdes

Find it, and you're half way home to the $100,000.00 reward.

What, no more special conditions for me? OK, no problem with that.

Originally Posted by Gerdes

What are you waiting for stupid?

I’m waiting for a certain gibbering hysteric to specify his proof requirements. By the reasonable standards of criminal justice and historical research, Lukaskiewicz’ description, together with the other Treblinka evidence I have listed, would be proof that there’s at least one mass grave with a minimum area corresponding to the craters’ diameter (25 meters) and a depth of 7.5 meters in the area of former Treblinka extermination camp, which is not exactly a large area. If that’s enough for you, there’s nothing for me to wait for.

If, on the other hand, you want more precise coordinates, we’ll have to wait until the SAP completes its work at Sobibor and Yoram Haimi focuses his attention on Treblinka, or until some other archaeologist takes interest in that camp. If you offer me a GPR for Christmas and finance an expert handler of the thing, I might be able to do some preliminary work.

Post # 1220:

Poor hysterical howler Gerdes regurgitates more of his beaten "prove it", "let’s see" and the inevitable "What part of the word proof don't you understand dull one" - crap, to cover up his understandable fear of doing what he should do: re-include at least Belzec extermination camp in the $100,000 NAFCASH challenge.

Post # 1221:

More of the idiotic "let’s see just one [photo of] this-and-that quantity of this-and-that type of human remains at this-and-that place" – mantra that Gerdes keeps hiding behind in order to avoid addressing the far more telling evidence that is on the table, and also to avoid specifying his proof requirements (the Simian "what I will accept as proof is proof" – crap was all too predictable, and IIRC I even did predict it) like the whimpering little coward and mendacious one-trick-pony he is.

Post # 1222:

Gerdes’ variation of the "let’s see just one [photo of] this-and-that quantity of this-and-that type of human remains at this-and-that place" - mantra: the no less imbecile and no less cowardly "not one [photo of] this-and-that quantity of this-and-that type of human remains at this-and-that place has been shown" – mantra. What a bore.

Post # 1223:

Gerdes messes with a question from my post # 1215 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...postcount=1215 in order to avoid answering that question, and spouts some more self-projecting invective.

Post # 1224:

Originally Posted by Gerdes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
1 - How much human remains did Kola actually find in Belzecs grave #10?

Retardo:

"As much as can be reasonably estimated based on his description."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Priceless!

So we now have - "assumptions based on estimates based on descriptions!"

Thank you so much dull one -BTW, have I ever told you that you're priceless?

If Gerdes is so convinced that an archaeologist’s description of his archaeological findings is not evidence but a mere allegation, what’s he waiting for to re-include Belzec in the §100,000 NAFCASH challenge and thus increase that challenge’s publicity effect?

He obviously doesn’t believe his own bigmouthed babbling and is afraid that, if he should re-include Belzec in the NAFCASH challenge, he will soon have to put his money where his mouth is.

Originally Posted by Gerdes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
2 - Out of the alleged 1,920,000 teeth allegedly in said "huge mass grave," how many teeth did he find?

Retardo:

We don’t know how many teeth he found. It’s a silly and pointless question based on one assumption that is speculative and another that is as wrong as can be, but I have already answered it nevertheless... The answer to this silly question (reformulated so as to lessen its stupidity) has been provided: we don’t know how many teeth Prof. Kola found among the crematory remains in grave # 10, if any, because he provides no breakdown of the “crematory remains” found... The question has been answered, Mr. Gerdes. If you think that my answer is wrong and Prof. Kola’s descriptions of the mass graves, or any other part of his report, contain sufficient information to establish how many teeth he found in a given grave, then please provide the respective quote or excerpt from Prof. Kola’s Belzec report. I shall then stand corrected on the reply I gave, but this will not mean that I did what you compulsively do all the time, i.e. lie. A lie is a deliberate statement against better knowledge, my dear Gerdes. What better knowledge contrary to my answer, and becoming apparent from Prof. Kola’s report, am I supposed to have had? Please tell me... Question about teeth has been answered to the best of my knowledge.


Now look at retardo's - topix post #762:

Not that it matters because Gerdes’ demand is as idiotic as ever, but I can prove the existence of at least one loose canine tooth and of as many teeth as the bodies in wax-fat transformation found by Kola’s drilling can be expected to contain. Both are mentioned in the core samples from grave # 10 shown under http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...laFigure13.jpg


The lying jewbitch new the answer all along.


One tooth out of an alleged 1,920,000!

Poor blind hen Gerdes thinks he finally found a grain.

Or should that be "Gerdes the chimp thinks he’s finally in for a banana"?

In Figure 13 of his Belzec book:



Prof. Kola shows graphic drawings of seven core drills in grave # 10. The third sample from the left includes a mention of "canine tooth". The sample, as far as I can recognize based on the labeling of graphics in Figure 12:



contains sandy soil, burned charcoals and burned human bones.

What does the term "canine tooth" refer to? Does it mean "one single canine tooth"? Or does it mean "the substance canine tooth"? In the latter case, what is being referred to is not a single canine tooth, but an unspecified number of canine teeth.

The latter interpretation is supported by Figure 15:



In one of the samples of grave 3/97, the following types of remains are mentioned: "tooth" and "human hair".

Does "tooth" mean "one single tooth"? Or does the term refer to the substance "tooth", thus meaning an unspecified quantity of teeth? The term "human hair" obviously means the substance "human hair" and not "one single human hair", so it is reasonable to assume that the same applies to "tooth", also considering how thick the layer of the mentioned substances is. From Mattogno’s Belzec book, quoted under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...007754580.html :

The thickest layer is the one belonging to sample 332/XV-85-40 (described as "tooth/human hair/water/human hair"), which corresponds to approximately 15% of the depth of the grave ( = 5 meters), thus to about 0.75 meters.

It would be nonsensical to assume that a layer 0.75 meters thick of "tooth/human hair/water/human hair" contains just one single tooth. Mattogno is obviously assuming that the term "tooth" refers to the substance, and not to a specific single object made of that substance.

Applying this reasoning to the samples of grave # 10, one can conclude that "canine tooth" means not one single canine tooth, but an unspecified quantity of canine teeth.

A further point to consider is that grave # 10 was located on the basis of 16 drills:

The grave pit No 10 (Fig 27)
One of the biggest graves, in bottom view of a rectangular shape with the size of about 24,00 x 18,00 m. Situated in the north-central part of ha XV, basing on 16 deep drills (No 482-490, 494, 496-499, 501, 520)[emphasis added]; in some neighbourhood, much more shallow drills (with the ground bottom of about 1,50 m) crematory remains were reported. The grave was very deep (the drills in particular places were stopped at the depth of 4,25 to 5,20 m, because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters presence). One drill (No 483) at the depth of 4,40 m revealed the appearance of several cm layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil (20 cm). The edge parts of the pit are filled shallow, to the depth of about 1,50 m, probably because of getting some soil to make next layers between the bodies. That fact caused widening of the grave which was filled with next body remains. The estimated volume of the grave amounts about 2100 m3.

Figure 13 shows only 7 of these 16 drills. The other nine drills are not shown. As I mentioned under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...007754580.html, Kola does not show samples from all graves, and he also doesn’t show all samples from the graves from which he shows samples. The samples he shows are meant to be illustrations of the soil patterns found in some of the graves, and it is likely that the samples not shown contain similar soil patterns as those of the samples shown. So there may well be more samples among those not shown with the same soil pattern as sample 484/XV-30-50, i.e. also containing "canine teeth" at a certain depth inside the ground.

So the reasonable and prudent answer to Gerdes’ question how many teeth Prof. Kola found in grave # 10 is and remains: we do not know.

No grain for blind hen Gerdes.

No banana for Gerdes the chimp.

Another of Gerdes’ puny attempts to portray me as what he demonstrably is – a liar – has resulted in Gerdes making a fool of himself.

Now I’m looking forward to Gerdes’ showing us the calculation of behind "1,920,000 teeth" in grave # 10.

And to his explaining why, in doing this calculation, he glossed over the fragility of teeth subjected to fire, which is discussed, for instance, in an article in the 4/1990 issue of the Journal of Forensic Science, written by Harry H. Minces, Hugh E. Berryman, G. Allen Murray and Richard L. Dickens, that is headed "Methods for Physical Stabilization of Ashed Teeth in Incinerated Remains" and refers to methods "for physically stabilizing the extremely fragile ashed teeth[my emphasis] that are often encountered in incinerated human remains".

Originally Posted by Gerdes

How many lies have we caught you in now retardo? Hundreds yes, have you gone over 1,000?

My assumption based on estimates is yes you have.

There’s no need for estimates in our fully recorded discussions on Topix and on this forum. Bigmouth Gerdes is requested to go through all my posts, pick out every single lie I have supposedly been caught in and post the respective quote with the number of the post and a link to that post. Then I’ll do the same regarding his posts. I predict that he won’t find one example that can stand up to scrutiny, whereas I shall find many that are pretty obvious.

Wanna play this game, Mr. Gerdes? Just fire away.

Post # 1225:

Another sorry attempt to impress suckers with the "not one [photo of] this-and-that quantity of this-and-that type of human remains at this-and-that place has been shown" – mantra, one of the rhetorical subterfuges that the coward keeps hiding behind, as pointed out above.

To once more illustrate the utter imbecility of this mantra, let’s look again at the following parallel:

Between 120,000 and 225,000 people murdered by Stalin’s thugs (which Gerdes probably believes to have been Jewish) are reportedly lying in the ground at Bykivnia near Kiev, see under http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm#Bykivnia.

That’s between 3,600,000 and 6,750,000 teeth, Mr. Gerdes, as there was never any cremation involved.

And I submit that you cannot show me any of those 3,600,000 to 6,750,000 teeth, Mr. Gerdes. You cannot show me a photo of one tooth, or (like I have done in regard to Treblinka, Chelmno and Belzec) quote an eyewitness testimony, administrative document or archaeological report that mentions a specified or unspecified number of teeth found at Bykivnia. So my questions are the following:

1. Must we therefore suspect that the Bykivnia killings never took place, Mr. Gerdes?

[b]2. Does your having or not at your disposal documentation of a given quantity of a given type of human remains at Bykivnia tell us anything at all about the factuality of the reported Stalinist mass killing at Bykivnia? Yes or No?[b]

3. If the answer to the previous question is "Yes", what do you think it tells us, and why?

4. If the answer to the previous question is "No", do you understand how idiotic your "just one" mantra is? Yes or No?

Answer these questions, coward. Don’t run away from them.

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

Originally Posted by EireannGoddess

your understanding of forensics and archeological fact is utterly banal.

Wow, our bloodthirsty little thing and self-appointed all-round expert (now also versed in forensics and archaeology) is with us again.

Welcome back, EG!

[Greg Gerdes]

Retardo:

"If you want to picture what grid cremation at the AR camps was like, take this picture from the Dresden Altmarkt."

No retardo, the claim is that virtually no fuel was needed because the Germans had discovered a magical way to stack the bodies just right. Look at how much fuel was need to make the cremation grid retardo lies about. (Please view photos 0030.jpg through 0041.jpg.)

http://www.fpp.co.uk/overflow/Dresden_gallery/


And please look at all those bones left over.


What was allegedly done with the bones at Treblinka?

[“Eyewitness”] Abraham Goldfarb relates: …’we secretly placed in the walls of the graves whole skeletons and we wrote on scraps of paper what the Germans were doing at Treblinka. We put the scraps of paper into bottles, which we placed next to the skeletons. Our intention was that if one day someone looked for traces of the Nazis’ crimes, they could indeed be found.’”

Let's not forget that retardo’s "magic cremation theory" also involved the alleged process of taking the LARGE bones / skeletal remains and crushing them before putting them back into the alleged "huge mass graves." That alleged process is a major part of the official story that retardo is conveniently trying to leave out. Not only would the nonsensical process have added hours to the magic cremation procedure, it's implicitly stating that the bones / teeth were not destroyed, but had to go through an alleged process of crushing large bones into small pieces of bone using dowels and tin sheets.

Of course anyone who isn't mentally retarded / ill knows you can't cremate humans without lots of fuel. You just can't win, can you retardo?

Thank you retardo. Have I ever told you that you're priceless?


Now let's look at the foundation of retardo's "magic cremation / magically disapearing jew theory," that wouldn't have burned a sinlge body, much less destroyed a single tooth.


No bodies were "destroyed" in the alleged "pure extermination centers" because the cremations claimed by the witnesses were physical impossibilities.

Elimination of the Corpses - Not Quite Without a Trace

The elimination of victims without a trace is a vital link in the chain of evidence for the Holocaust in general. Elimination without a trace is the prerequisite for an arbitrary number of victims. This is how the numbers of victims alleged for Treblinka come to vary from 700,000 to 3 million - a phenomenon that also appears in other cases. The casual treatment of such high numbers of victims seems questionable from the start, and ought to prompt those concerned with the topic to gather scientifically irrefutable facts so as to prevent the Holocaust from becoming a matter of faith. But smoke and mirrors and eyewitness testimony have been deemed good enough. The technically unrealistic claims regarding the mass murder of human beings are compounded by the utterly unbelievable accounts of the removal of bodies without any trace. Millions of dead cannot simply vanish into thin air. In this context the reader is referred to the case of Katyn, where the 4,500 Polish officers murdered by the Soviets in 1940 were discovered in 1943.

According to eyewitness testimony, Himmler ordered the incineration of bodies in the extermination camp Treblinka to eliminate any evidence of the killings; this order was allegedly given in March 1943.[89] This is said to have involved the exhumation and burning of the bodies that had already been buried. Various eyewitness accounts exist of this procedure in Treblinka, which allegedly went on from about March to August 1943.

Regarding the burning of the corpses, Eliahu Rosenberg has stated:

"After Himmler inspected the camp he ordered the burning of all the bodies lying in the pit [...] For this purpose, two iron rails were placed on the ground parallel to each other, and the bodies that were dug out of the pit with excavators were stacked on top of each other like fire logs. It frequently happened that the corpses, especially those just freshly killed, didn't burn well, and so we had to pour gasoline over them [...] At that time we had only one burning site, and of course that wasn't enough, since we couldn't burn more than a hundred bodies a day. An SS-Oberscharführer, Herbert Floss by name, was brought in from the neighboring camp [...] He set up five or six burning sites and also introduced a new way to layer the bodies [...]"[90]

In his testimony in Jerusalem, at the Demjanjuk trial, he also persisted in his convictions:

"In Treblinka we learned that little children burn better than grown men. All it takes is a match to light them. That's why the Germans, damn them, ordered us to put the children in the pit first."[91]

The witness Szyja Warszawski, who came to Treblinka in July 1942, told of gassings with chlorine and of at least 10,000 victims a day, and stated with respect to cremation:

"[...] Usually the bodies were put into pits 33 ft. deep and wide and many times as long. In January 1943 [...] five to six gratings were set up on the ground. The grates, which consisted of iron rails, were supported by cement posts about two feet above the ground. A grate like that was 33 ft. long and 13 ft. wide. A fire was started underneath. Bodies were layered on the burning grate with an excavator machine. Once the bodies caught fire they would continue burning by themselves. Mass cremation began in late February 1943. The ashes that remained after the burning were thrown back into the pits where the bodies had been dug out earlier. Sweet-peas were sown over top and trees brought over from the forest were planted to camouflage the site [...] For some pits only the top layer of bodies was dug out. The rest of the bodies were covered over with soil, and the site was camouflaged as well [...]."[92]

Without going into detail about the strange and contradictory claims in these statements, we shall add some excerpts from Wassily Grossmann's book Die Hölle von Treblinka, where the cremations are described as follows:

"At first the cremation of the bodies just wouldn't work - the bodies did not catch fire properly [sic!]; it was observed however, that female bodies burned easier. Vast quantities of expensive gasoline and oil were wasted on kindling [sic!] the bodies, but the results were pathetic [...] An expert [...] came from Germany, from the SS. What multitalented experts the Hitler regime gave rise to! [...] A specialist for digging up and burning millions of human corpses was also found.

Under his direction the construction of furnaces began. It was a very special kind, a cross between a pyre and a furnace [...] The excavator dug a boiler trench 820 to 980 ft. long, 65 to about 80 ft. wide and 16 ft. deep. Reinforced concrete pillars sticking about 40 to 50 inches out of the ground were evenly spaced in three rows on the bottom, along the entire length of the trench. These pillars supported steel joists running the entire length of the trench. Across these joists rails were placed 2 to 3 inches apart. In this way the grating of an enormous oven was formed [...] Soon a second and then a third oven of the same size was constructed. Each grating was loaded with 3,500 to 4,000 bodies at a time.

[...] People who participated in the cremation of the bodies recount that the ovens resembled gigantic volcanoes. [...] Dense, black, fat columns of smoke rose heavenward [...] Even twenty to twenty-five miles away, the people saw [...] these flames at night, rising up beyond the treetops of the spruce forests surrounding the camp. The entire area was polluted with the stench of burning human flesh [...] The traces are indelible."[93]

Jankiel Wiernik, who is the only one of the witnesses to claim that he participated directly in the cremation for a longer period of time, writes:

"It turned out that bodies of women burned more easily than those of men. Accordingly, the bodies of women were used for kindling the fires."[94]

Richard Glazar comments succinctly:

"The human body does not burn particularly well, quite the opposite."[95]

Rachel Auerbach has compiled various witness statements and summarized them thus:

"Polish people still talk about the way soap was manufactured from the bodies of Jews.... The discovery of Professor Spanner's soap factory in Langfuhr proved that their suspicions had been well founded. Witnesses tell us that when the corpses were burned on pyres, pans would be placed beneath the racks to catch the fat as it ran off, but this has not been confirmed. But even if the Germans in Treblinka or at any of the other death factories failed to do this, and allowed so many tons of precious fat to go to waste, it could only have been an oversight on their part.[96]

In Treblinka, as in other such places, significant advances were made in the science of annihilation, such as the highly original discovery that the bodies of women burned better than those of men.

'Men won't burn without women.' [...] The bodies of women were used to kindle, or, more accurately put, to build the fires among the piles of corpses [...] Blood, too, was found to be first-class combustion material. [...] Young corpses burn up quicker than old ones. [...] [W]ith the help of gasoline and the bodies of the fatter females, the pile of corpses finally burst into flames."[97]

Yitzhak Arad, trying to sound scientific, reports:

"[T]he corpses... [were] arranged [...] in layers on the roaster to a height of 2 meters. [...] When all was ready, dry wood and branches, which had been laid under the roaster, were ignited. The entire construction, with the bodies, was quickly engulfed in fire [...] and the flames would reach a height of up to 10 meters. [...] [T]he SS men in charge of the cremation became convinced that the corpses burned well enough without extra fuel. Yechiel Reichman, a member of the 'burning group', writes: 'The SS 'expert' on bodyburning ordered us to put women, particularly fat women, on the first layer of the grill, face down. The second layer could consist of whatever was brought - men, women, or children - and so on, layer on top of layer [....]'[98]

These [fresh] bodies did not burn as well as those removed from the ditches [i.e., the graves] and had to be sprayed with fuel before they would burn."[99]

But something does seem to have struck one of our Holocausters as odd. Jean-François Steiner vividly describes the problem resulting from the actual, enormous wood (fuel) requirements involved in cremation:

"The prime costs proved to be prohibitive: aside from the vast quantities of gasoline, just as many logs were needed as there were bodies. It was not a viable undertaking, for even if all the forests of Poland might still have been felled as a last resort, the gasoline supply would nevertheless run short. Stalingrad had fallen, and with that, the rich petroleum fields of the Caucasus had shimmered away into nothingness like a mirage."[100]

But J.-F. Steiner, who also compiled many eyewitness statements, manages to find a way out of this predicament; he too came across the bodies that burn of their own accord:

"There were fire-resistant [bodies] as well as such that caught fire easily. The trick was to use the good ones to burn the bad. According to his [Herbert Floss's] research - which evidently had been far advanced - old bodies burned better than new ones, fat ones better than skinny ones, women better than men, and children not as well as women but better than men. From this it followed that old corpses of fat women were the ideal kind."[101]

Some witness statements do in fact indicate that there were units in the camp whose task it was to supply firewood. While Abraham Krzepicki and Samuel Willenberg can only tell of a unit that tore branches off trees in order to decorate the fence surrounding the extermination camp with them, for camouflage purposes,[102] Y. Arad reports that a "wood commando" which initially had to provide only the wood required for construction and firewood later also had to procure the wood needed for cremation.[103] However, there is a consensus among the witnesses and Holocaust believers that the wood was only lit as a sort of camp fire underneath the mountains of corpses, until these had caught fire and burned on their own. R. Glazar is the only one to be able to provide details of this "wood commando": it consisted of 25 men, whose efforts yielded so few twigs and branches that a "camouflage commando" of 25 men had to climb unfelled trees in order to break off additional branches, which were woven into the camp fences to keep outsiders from looking in.[104] Apparently, the "wood commando" did not fell many trees.

Incidentally, Steven Spielberg has shown himself quick to learn from the aforementioned 'witnesses': in one scene of his movie Schindler's List he shows a gigantic conveyor belt continually heaping bodies onto an enormous pile of corpses magically burning on by themselves.[105]

Even though they are contradictory, the many eyewitness accounts do offer numerous details of the extermination activities in Treblinka II; on the other hand, the issue of the fuel necessary for the elimination of the bodies - that is, for their incineration - is ignored, glossed over, or dismissed with unacceptable claims. This consistent approach suggests that the issue, not being resolvable, is repressed either consciously or unconsciously. Szyja Warszawski came up with what is no doubt the easiest solution to the fuel problem when he declared:

"[...] Once the bodies caught fire they would continue burning by themselves",

and Grossmann also took a turn in this direction when he stated:

"[...] the bodies did not catch fire properly",

and

"[...] kindling the bodies".

The witnesses appear to agree on the opinion that female corpses burn by themselves particularly well, and can thus serve to ignite and burn other corpses. These claims imply that mere kindling suffices to set corpses on fire.

However, this easy way out does not suffice to truly solve the problem of the cremation of corpses, for the worldwide presence and use of oil-, natural gas- or coal-fired crematoria refutes it conclusively, as do all the laws of nature. Some 65% of the human body is unburnable water.

When a major earthquake struck India in September 1993, claiming some 20,000 lives, it was feared that epidemics would break out if the fuel (wood) needed for the cremation of the bodies could not be procured in time. In India, where the cremation of bodies has been the rule rather than the exception for a long time, self-burning corpses have yet to be discovered, even though the country suffers from fuel shortage in this context.

Psychologists ought to investigate the patently false witness claims, since there is no scientific or literary precedent for any similar event, which might have found its way into the witnesses' subconscious mind in the form of a literary experience.

So the alleged "cremation" procedure of the Nazis is absurd. Not only would it be impossible to "cremate" a single body like this, it would be even harder to "destroy" so much as a single tooth.

What part of physically impossible do you not understand dull one?

(At Treblinka, the claim is the Germans averaged "cremating" 7,250 jews per day for aprox. 120 straight days. But that is just the alleged average. Some "eyewitnesses" have claimed that as many as 20,000 were "cremated" in a single day. What kind of mentally retarded / ill freak could believe such nonsense?)

Retardo:

"Nothing implausible about that... Eyewitness descriptions of the process are essentially correct."


Oh, I see you don't understand a single thing about the concept of physical impossibilities.

Thank you retardo.

(BTW retardo, have I ever told you that you're priceless?)

[Greg Gerdes]

Retardo:

"I never claimed that the victims of Treblinka disappeared "without leaving a trace", on the contrary... I never claimed that all teeth were reduced to tooth meal, on the contrary... I provided two sources expressly mentioning teeth on the grounds of Treblinka... Grossman may have got measurements and other data wrong... But there’s no reason to assume that he was wrong about the above-mentioned teeth... Any particular reason why this should not be enough to conclude that teeth were lying around on the Treblinka site? Gerdes omits my reasonable explanation for expecting teeth to have been among the human remains mentioned in the site investigation reports, even though there is no express mention of teeth in these reports... It just means they didn’t crush all of them, as I have pointed out over and over again, quite a few must have been overlooked. Duh!... a claim which I never made, that all teeth were crushed... Actually, as Gerdes well knows, I never claimed that the crushing of teeth following at Treblinka led to the obliteration of all of these teeth. In the mass graves, according to Kola, "there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay". These remains may well include teeth, lots of them."


Yes Retardo. But not just "lots," allegedly - 36 million.

And let's not forget the alleged 8.25 million pounds of crushed bone.

All allegedly in 14 "huge mass graves."

That, out of all the physical evidence that retardo herself insists, over and over - never disappeared "without leaving a trace."

Yes, retardo insists that she never bought into the "magically disappearing jew theory."

Yet she can't prove the existence of any more than one single tooth.

Now show us where the other 3,999,999 teeth are that are mixed with the 8.25 million pounds of crushed bone.



My question to the dull one:

And while you're at it dull one, can you show us just:

ONE pound of crushed bone at Treblinka and Sobibor?

ONE tooth at Treblinka and Sobibor?


Retardo's answer:

"I don’t know if any of the photos I have shown so far shows the specified quantity of the type of human remain specified in your first question, and I also don’t think I have a photo showing a tooth found at either camp, at least a natural one."


"At least not a natural one?" LOL!!!! Priceless.


Well yes stupid, we've known all along that you had nothing. But at least you've finally admitted that you can't prove that so much as one pound of crushed bone or even so much as one real tooth exists at Treblinka or Sobibor. Nor can you prove that Belzecs grave #10 contains the remains of so much as 600 jews, AFTER Kola has claimed that the grave contains 60,000.

Thank you Retardo, you truely are priceless.

[Greg Gerdes]

Retardo:

"I'm not saying that any graves disappeared... Regarding Treblinka, Krege found exactly what he had hoped not to find."


If Krege found it, you should be able to find it.


Retardo:

"I don’t know if Krege found this particular pit."


Then what did he find stupid? You say - "he found exactly what he had hoped not to find. If Krege found it, you should be able to find it.

Where is it stupid?


Retardo:

"As to the volume of the cone:

Diameter d = 25 meters

Radius r = 12.5 meters

Height h = 7.5 meters, minus 2 meters for soil cover = 5.5 meters

Volume V = П x r2 x h = 3.14 x 156.25 x 5.5 = 2,698.44 cubic meters. Half thereof ashes and other partial human remains = 1,349.22 cubic meters of ashes and other partial human remains.

1,349.22 cubic meters of ashes and other partial human remains correspond to how many human beings, Mr. Gerdes?"


Over 1% of the alleged mass murder.

Now, you claim that none of the graves disapeared. So where is this pit filled with 1,349.22 cubic meters of human remains and teeth stupid?

Find it, and you're half way home to the $100,000.00 reward.

What are you waiting for stupid?

[Greg Gerdes]

Let's do another recap of the money / challenges that are on retardo's table.

$100,000.00 for proving the existence of just one "huge mass grave" at Sobibor that contains the remains of just 1% of the alleged mass murder (2,500).

$100,000.00 for proving the existence of the remains of just 1% fo the alleged mass murder at Treblinka (8,700).

$5,000.00 donated in her name to The Sobibor Archaeology Project for proving the existence of just 600 jews in Belzec's grave #10.


Retardo:

"Will you accept assumptions based on estimates based on descriptions?"


It all depends. As you know, you have to have your "proof" published in "SKEPTIC" magazine. If "SKEPTIC" magazine accepts your "assumptions based on estimates based on descriptions," we will of course consider it.

BTW retardo, what part of the word proof don't you understand dull one? Are you retarded, or what?


Retardo:

"I'm not saying that any graves disappeared."


Then where are they?

Let's see them.


Retardo:

"And these are descriptions of human remains contained in the mass graves... That’s how we know there are lots of human remains Mr. Gerdes... As to Sobibor, the locations of the mass graves inside that camp's killing area have been identified by Prof. Kola, described by the same in a press interview and plotted on a map of which I have a copy in my possession. I’ve accepted the challenge to provide proof of one mass grave that contains at least 2,500... Actually all seven, mentioned in Prof. Kola's 2001 press interview, the contents of which are corroborated by all known documentary evidence."


Then what are you waiting for faggot?

Prove it, and you're half way home to the $100,000.00 reward.


And of course we're waiting for the liar to prove he has said map and were still waiting for a link to the other map.

[Greg Gerdes]

BTW folks, retardo's posting of the "drawings" of the alleged core samples was the reason why I was challenging her to show us just one tooth at Belzec. So now, all we're waiting for her to do is submit her "proof" to Archaeology magazine. (I will allow you to include those drawings dull one.)

So all we have is drawings of alleged core samples at Belzec, and at Sobibor, we don't even have that!

Of course, we're still waiting for O'Neil to release the films he says he took at Belzec.

Why do you think he refuses to do so retardo? I will also allow you to submit stills from O’Neil’s films to Archaeology Magazine retardo if he ever releases them. (Don't you think 10 years is a little long to hold back such incredible evidence? What's he waiting for?)

BTW, do you know what it is he's trying to hide?

Retardo:

"You removed Belzec from the challenge to keep your money safe for as long as possible. So now you will put it back in, Mr. Gerdes."

We will consider it as soon as O'Neil releases his Belzec films.

Now dull one, if we are the ones calling for the release of evidence that could prove the Belzec holocaust once and for all, then your claim that we're worried about keeping our money safe is baseless. In fact, we are also challenging Shermer to release all information he has about his alleged Belzec investigation. We want the dates he allegedly was there, what type of research he allegedly did at the camp and a complete report of his findings.

Will you join us in challenging O'Neil and Shermer to release this information? If you don't, your accusations are proven baseless and fraudulent. Let's see you make a public challenge to these frauds to do so.

[Greg Gerdes]

Here's some more analysis of retardo's "magic cremations / disappearing jew theory."

Let us summarize: By December 1941, the problem of the cremation of bodies had emerged in the concentration and prisoner-of-war camps. Crematoria were built in Mogilew, in Majdanek, and in all the larger concentration camps, but not in the alleged three pure extermination camps!

The SS paid the sum of 1,400,000 RM for the four crematoria of Birkenau,[424] but for crematoria in the camps allegedly devoted exclusively to the extermination of Jews, the SS sacrificed not a single penny, although this extermination of Jews is supposed to have been one of the main goals, if not the main goal itself, of NS policy!

Can anyone really take such nonsense seriously?

12. Cremation

a. Complexity of the Problem

The matter of the missing crematoria is all the more grotesque, as the problem of cremating the corpses would have been tremendous, if the official version of Treblinka corresponded to the facts. The Jewish US-historian Konnilyn G. Feig comments the following in this regard:[425]

"The incredible complexity of the mass-grave problem frustrated the Germans. Their dismay was legitimate. Treblinka's soil contained 700,000 bodies - a volume of 69,000 cubic meters weighing 35,000 tons, the same as a medium size battleship. Even if 1,000 bodies could be burned each day, 700 days would elapse before Himmler's order had been obeyed.

Franz and Lalka [nick-name of an SS-officer] tried many approaches to the problem. They poured buckets of gasoline on the bodies in one ditch - producing huge flames and slightly singed corpses. They piled one hundred bodies into wide but shallow ditches, and dumped in gasoline again. The resulting fire did not destroy the corpses. They experimented with varying sizes of piles and quantities of gasoline - to no avail. At the end of the first testing period they concluded that Himmler 's request would take 140 years to fulfill.

As a second experiment, they built huge pyres - alternating bodies and wood and soaking the whole with gasoline. The fire destroyed the bodies but the test could not be repeated, for it was wartime and gasoline and tree trunks were not available in the quantities necessary to burn 700,000 corpses."

Before we continue, we must correct the figures given here. If 700,000 bodies weighed 35,000 tons, then the average weight of a body was 50 kg and it occupied a volume of approximately 0.05 m3; thus, the entire volume was 35,000 m3 and not 69,000 m3.

In our calculations, we are assuming the number of bodies to be 870,000 as given by Y. Arad and the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust and assume the average weight to be 45 kg, since the corpses would have been buried for many months, leading to a loss of weight by desiccation. Thus, the total weight of the bodies would have amounted to 39,150,000 kg and the volume occupied by them would have been 39,150 m3.

Feig goes on to say:[426]

"Finally, the planners were forced to bring an expert, Herbert Floss. [...] Floss had the prisoners erect four cement pillars, 76 centimeters high, forming a rectangle 19 meters long and 1 meter wide. On top they laid railroad rails, and on the rails they piled several hundred bodies. Inmates called the two huge iron pyres 'Roasts'. A witness suggested that primitive grills could hold 2,600 bodies."

In order to increase the efficiency of the grates, Floss introduced an important innovation to them. As Jean-François Steiner claims, whom Feig quotes, Floss had discovered during his experiments in particular that

"the old bodies burned better than the new ones, the fat ones better than the thin ones, the women better than the men, and the children not as well as the women but better than the men."

Therefore, "it was evident that the ideal body was the old body of a fat woman," and Floss had the bodies distributed according to these criteria.[426]

Feig is thus not embarrassed to repeat the crackpot claims of some witnesses, that women's bodies burned spontaneously and served as fuel for the cremation of the rest of the bodies.[427] Hardly less ridiculous is the claim that the bodies of old men burn better than those of young men. In actuality, the truth is exactly the opposite: in the bodies of men weakened by age the combustible materials - fats and proteins - are already partly used up by the process of aging.

But this is in essence a secondary issue. The main problem lies in the primitiveness of the burning technique. Can anyone in possession of his five senses actually accept the scenario that the Commandant of Treblinka, disregarding the experiences with cremation accumulated by the SS in Auschwitz, engaged in amateurish experiments in executing an order personally issued by Himmler himself, as though the cremation of 870,000 were a local problem, to be solved by make-shift methods?

No less abstruse is the notion that Himmler, who had at his disposal the best German engineers and technicians in the field of cremation - those of the firm of J.A. Topf & Söhne (Erfurt), Hans Kori (Berlin) and Didier Werke (Berlin), who had supplied the crematoria furnaces to all the German concentration camps - sent a nobody by the name of Herbert Floss to Treblinka!

b. Number and Structure of the Cremation Facilities

The technique of cremation employed in Treblinka was described as follows in the verdict of the Düsseldorf Jury Court at the trial of 1964-1965:[428]

"After the most diverse cremation attempts had been employed for this purpose, a large cremation facility was constructed. It consisted of a concrete base approximately 70 cm thick, upon which 5 to 6 railroad rails of perhaps 25 to 30 m length lay at small intervals. Under the rails burned a fire, while 2,000 to 3,000 of the bodies of the Jews killed in the gas chambers were loaded on the grate and then burned. When it was seen that this system worked, the corpses, which had been put into the body pits in the preceding months, were also retrieved, again with the help of a large excavator, and then likewise incinerated in the manner described."

According to the plan of Jankiel Wiernik from the year 1945 as well as that presented at the trial in Düsseldorf,[429] two such cremation facilities were in fact constructed. The cremation is supposed to have taken place in the time period between April and the end of July 1943,[430] so that nearly all 860,000 bodies are supposed to have been incinerated within 122 days, i.e. 7,000 per day on two grates, or 3,500 per day per grate.

How large was such a grate? In the version of Wiernik 's work One year in Treblinka published by A. Donat, one reads:[431]

"This is the way in which he[[432]] got the Inferno started: He put into operation an excavator which could dig up 3,000 corpses at one time. A fire grate made from railroad tracks was placed on concrete foundations 100 to 150 meters in length. The workers piled the corpses on the grate and set them on fire."

The particulars given here are clearly the fruit of a later insertion, since in the American translation of Wiernick's writing compiled in 1944 it simply says:[433]

"This is the way he got the hell started. He put a machine for exhuming the corpses into operation, which could, in one motion, dig up many, many dead bodies. A fire grate made of railway ties was laid out on cement foundations, and workmen had to pile the corpses on the grating and set them on fire"

If one takes into consideration the fact that 3,000 bodies take up a volume of about (3,000×0.045 =) 135 m3, the claim, according to which the shovel of the excavator could be loaded with 3,000 bodies at a time, will evoke only amusement. The length of the grate (100 to 150 m) contradicts the trial documents. According to Arad, the grate was 30 m wide,[434] but this too contradicts the verdict of the Düsseldorf Jury Court, according to which the grate consisted of "5 to 6 train rails of about 25 to 30 m in length." Since emaciated bodies, which easily disintegrated, were burned on both grates, the gap between two rails had to be small and could at most be permitted to amount to 50 to 60 cm, so that one can assume a width of the grate of approximately three meters. The width given by Feig - one meter - is obviously impossible.

Thus, the two grates cannot have been larger than 30 × 3 × 0.76 m each. As already explained, each grate must have burned 3,500 bodies every single day for 122 days. Let us now examine the consequences of this.

c. Arrangement of the Corpses on the Cremation Grates

The surface area of one grate amounted to 90 m2. In view of its structure, the bodies could only be placed cross-wise on it; it is therefore to be assumed that for one meter of length of the grate - which corresponds to three square meters - four bodies can be placed, two respectively to the right and left of the central axis. We are assuming, however, for each body a theoretical average surface area of the size of a rectangle of 1.75 m × 0.50 m, which also includes the necessary intervening space for the passage of the products of combustion. On the entire grate, then, there is space for a layer of (4 × 30 =) 120 bodies. If we start with a height of 30 cm per layer of bodies, if one placed 3,500 bodies at the same time on the grate, the result would be (3,500÷120=) 29 layers of bodies with a total height of (29×0.3=) 8.7 m!

According to the witness Henryk Reichmann, five to six grates were built, each of which was able to accommodate 2,500 bodies at a time.[435] The witness Szyja Warszawski specified that each grate measured 10 m × 4 m.[436] It follows from this that one could accommodate a layer of 46 bodies on each grate, and 2,500 bodies - picture this - would result in 54 layers, or a hill of bodies 16 m high!

Even had the SS managed the feat of piling up 29 or even 54 layers of bodies on the grate, the train rails would have deformed under the load as well as from the heat, and the body-mountain would have soon caved in.


In the case of the pyre previously described, the flames and the products of combustion come in direct contact only with the layer of corpses lying directly on the grate and exert their effects upon any layer lying above that with an intensity quickly dwindling toward the vanishing point, so that a burning-time of 2.5 hours per level is totally unrealizable.

Therefore, had the cremation of 860,000 bodies in Treblinka been initiated at the beginning of April 1943, then under the most favorable conditions it would have ended in December 1945, and the Soviets as well as His Honor Judge Łukaszkiewicz would have been able to personally attend the performance!


Y. Arad writes:[442]

"Ultimately it was decided to dump the ash and bits of bone into the ditches that had previously held the bodies and to cover them with a thick layer of sand and dirt. The ash was scattered in the pits in several layers, interspersed with layers of sand. The top 2 meters of the pit were filled with earth."

Wiernik also writes:[444]

"It was our job to fill in the empty ditches with the ashes of the cremated victims, mixed with soil, in order to obliterate all traces of the mass graves."


g. Lack of Documentary Evidence for Cremations

These kinds of enormous pyres, had they actually existed, would obviously have been immediately conspicuous in the area surrounding Treblinka. In reference to this, the witness Kazimierz Skarzyński explained:[448]

"The bodies were piled on the rails and burned. The glow of the fire was visible at a distance of 15 km. During the day, a black smoke spread. With a strong wind, the smell of burning was still perceptible 30 km away from the camp."

As pointed out in our Introduction, the Treblinka camp was surrounded by quite a number of villages and hamlets. Within a radius of 10 km were the small towns of Wólka Ogrąlik, Poniatowo, Grady, Treblinka, Małkinia, Zawisty Dzikie, Rostki Wlk., Rytele, Świeckie, Olechny, Wszołki, Jakubiki, Tosie, Kosów Lacki, Dębe, Żochy, Rostki, Maliszewa, Guty, Bojewo, Brzózka, Kołodziaż, Orzełek, Złotki, Prostyń, Kiełczew.

From every single one of these villages and hamlets one would have seen the glow of the flames from Treblinka for 122 days - how does it happen that there is no mention of this in any of the reports of the Polish resistance movement?

And how is it that the Soviet reconnaissance planes discovered no trace of this gigantic cremation operation? Jankiel Wiernik supplies the following explanation for this:[63]

"Whenever an airplane was sighted overhead, all work was stopped, the corpses were covered with foliage as camouflage against aerial observation."

This, of course, is outrageous nonsense, since in the first place the planes would already have noticed the smoke of the grates long since, by the time that they themselves were visible from the camp, and in the second place due to the generation of smoke thereby effected, the covering of the grates with foliage would have been the best method to make them even more visible!

13. Witness Testimonies about Cremations

That such a mass cremation of many hundred thousands of bodies was not a real event follows, finally, from the glaring contradictions between the different eyewitness narratives.

As already mentioned, according to the official version of Treblinka, which was ultimately agreed upon, there were supposedly two cremation grates of 30 m × 3 m in size, which were located on the grounds of the camp and which could respectively incinerate up to 3,500 bodies. However, in the original version, the witnesses had the grates in the trenches. According to Szyja Warszawski, the cremation facility, which was incorrectly termed by him a "furnace" was[449]

"[...] a pit 25 m in length, 20 m wide, and 5-6 m deep, with a grate out of rails on the bottom of the pit, which constituted an air vent."

Abe Kon stated for the record:[450]

"[The bodies] were burned in a specially manufactured furnace, which could hold up to 6,000 bodies. The furnace was filled with bodies. These had gasoline and petroleum poured over them and were burned. The cremation lasted up to an hour."

Apart from Abe Kon himself, the witnesses Hejnoch Brenner and Samuel Rajzman agreed upon the following version:[451]

"The furnace - that was a large trench 200-300 m long and 5-6 m deep, excavated with an excavator. Three rows of reinforced concrete poles one-and-a-half meters high each were driven into the bottom of the trench. The poles were connected with one another by crossbeams. On these crossbeams were laid rails at intervals of 5 to 7 cm. This was a giant furnace grate. Narrow-gauge tracks were brought up to the edges of the trench."

This variation was also adopted by Wassili Grossmann, who made his courtesy visit to Treblinka in September 1944 and was able to speak with the witnesses already questioned by the Soviets.[452]

But there would not have been room for such an enormous grate on the property of 'Camp II' of Treblinka II, whose longest side was just 188 m.

Subsequently, in the Polish investigatory protocols, the grates migrated in a wondrous fashion from out of the pits to the surface of the ground, and their dimensions shrank severely.

According to the witness Henryk Reichmann, five to six grates were installed, each of which was able to hold 2,500 bodies at a time.[453] Witness Szyja Warszawski maintained that each grate measured 10 m × 4 m.[454] We have already underlined the fact that under these conditions 46 layers of bodies would have to have been piled up on one grate; with 2,500 bodies, 54 or a mountain of bodies 16 m high would have been necessary!

Jankiel Wiernik writes that a grate - which presumably was located on the camp grounds - could burn 3,000 bodies at one time.[431] The total capacity of all grates amounted, according to him, to 10,000 to 12,000 bodies.[455] This obviously contradicts the camp plan drawn by the same witness, in which merely two grates are to be seen.[456] At the end of July 1943 - once again according to Wiernik - 75% of the bodies from the mass graves are supposed to have been cremated, with 25% still remaining. Wiernik was not embarrassed to claim:[444]

"Within a few days work was begun to empty the remaining 25 per cent of the graves and the bodies were cremated."

In view of the fact that on the 2nd of August, the day of the revolt, the cremation is already supposed to have been finished, this means that a quarter of the bodies must have been cremated within a maximum of ten days. Wiernik maintains silence about the exact number of victims of the camp, but speaks of "millions of people,"[457] which corresponds to a minimum of two million; in the report of November 15, 1942, which he brazenly plagiarized, there was also mention of two million, which had allegedly been exterminated in Treblinka just up to that time. According to his claims, therefore, in not more than ten days 500,000 bodies - a quarter of these two million - were transformed into ashes, although the grates could manage at most, according to his own statements, 12,000 bodies per day or 120,000 in ten days!

The idiocies dished up by this witness are really beyond description. Wiernik gives every indication of being the author of the story of the spontaneous combustion of bodies, later taken up by his cronies:[63]

"It turned out that bodies of women burned more easily than those of men. Accordingly, the bodies of women were used for kindling the fires."

Let us remind ourselves once again that the entire version of the history of Treblinka accepted today was put out into the world by exactly this Jankiel Wiernik!

14. Number of Those Gassed Daily

In Chapter III, we have shown the unbelievable lack of capacity for critical judgment of the official historiography relative to the enormous technical problems, which would have been entailed in an extermination of the claimed number of Jews in Treblinka. In this regard, the claims of the witnesses verge upon pure insanity. For instance, Abe Kon has the nerve to make the following statement:[458]

"In this way, they exterminated 15,000 to 18,000 persons a day. It went on like that for two months."

Stainslaw sings the same tune:[459]

"Within 13 months they killed 15,000 to 18,000 people per day there."

At his interrogation of September 26, 1944, Samuel Rajzman stated:[460]

"Every day 5-6 transports with 60 boxcars each arrived in the camp. Of course, there were days on which 1-2 trains arrived, but that was an exception, not the rule. Six to seven thousand people arrived with each transport."

This corresponds to 24,000, even 28,000 people daily! In 1946, Rajzman named figures with the same order of magnitude:[461]

"Every day there were about 20,000 corpses. [...] There were days, on which up to 25,000 people were killed."

A further witness, Stanisław Borowy, gave to protocol that 12,000 to 18,000 deportees arrived daily in trains with 60 boxcars with 150 to 200 occupants each.[462]

Jankiel Wiernik wrote:[463]

"Between ten and twelve thousand people were gassed each day. [...]

there were periods when as many as 30,000 people were gassed in one day."

Incredibly, these insanities were accepted by the court of a western European nation as unvarnished truth! In the verdict of the Düsseldorf Jury Court, ref. 8 I Ks 2/64, p. 88, one Manfred Blank declared:[464]

"In Treblinka many times up to 5 transports with an average of 6,000 people each arrived in one day."

According to this, up to 30,000 people were reaching Treblinka daily! In accord with the transport lists produced by Y. Arad, from July 22 to September 30, 1942, thus within a period of 70 days, approximately 500,000 Jews were deported to Treblinka and murdered there, although at that time only the first of the two gassing installations is supposed to have existed. This corresponds to a figure of more than 7,100 gassings per day! Since, according to the verdict of the above mentioned Düsseldorf trial, each of the three gas chambers could hold a maximum of 350 persons and thus the total capacity of the three chambers amounted to 1,050 persons, that would have meant no less than seven gassing operations per day per chamber, each of which would had to have taken less than three-and-a-half hours. According to the witnesses, however, the chambers were never in operation 24 hours a day, not even when 20,000 victims per day were coming in! In A. Donat 's anthology, we read:[465]

"On such days the gas chambers were in operation until 1 a.m. and finished off more than 20,000 corpses within 24 hours."


This sort of thing should have been met with roars of contemptuous laughter, but Gerald Reitlinger and Jean-Claude Pressac are the only representatives of the official historiography who have had mustered the necessary minimum of courage to reject this insult to sound human reason!

[Greg Gerdes]

Again, can / has retardo (or anyone else) show / proven the existence of just one pound of crushed bone - out of the alleged 6.351 million pounds (mixed with 27.840 million teeth), that is allegedly buried in 6 “huge mass graves” at Treblinka?

No - not one single pound.

(I guess 65 years isn’t enough time – how much more time do you need dull one?)


Again, can / has retardo (or anyone else) show / proven the existence of just one pound of crushed bone - out of the alleged 1.825 million pounds (mixed with 8.000 million teeth), that is allegedly buried in 7 “huge mass graves” at Sobibor?

No - not one single pound.

(I guess 65 years isn’t enough time – how much more time do you need dull one?)


However, the dull one has stated:

"I’ve accepted the challenge to provide proof... I'm not saying that any graves disappeared... these are descriptions of human remains contained in the mass graves... the contents of which are corroborated by all known evidence... that’s how we know there are lots of human remains Mr. Gerdes... I never claimed that the victims of Treblinka disappeared "without leaving a trace", on the contrary... I never claimed that the crushing of teeth at Treblinka led to the obliteration of all of these teeth... at Sobibor, In the mass graves, according to Kola, there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay. These remains may well include teeth, lots of them... my reasonable explanation for expecting teeth to have been among the human remains... as I have pointed out over and over again, quite a few must have been overlooked. Duh! "


Then what are you waiting for faggot?

Prove it, and you're half way home to the $100,000.00 reward.

[T.F. Scheb]

Mr. Gerdes is tearing Mr/Ms(?) Muehlenkamp to shreds. Isn't someone going to jump in to help him/her from this terrible bloodletting. Where is that Dr Andrew Mathis? Dr Green? Dr Keren? Their silence is telling.

Will someone please bring the mop bucket and sop up all the blood? Poor Abe Foxman may stroke out over this before it's over.

[ced smythe]

Originally Posted by Roberto Muehlenkamp

...the burning process at Treblinka and the other AR camps was essentially the same that was applied on the Dresden... only more sophisticated, on a much larger scale and over a much longer period.

If you want to picture what grid cremation at the AR camps was like, take this picture from the Dresden Altmarkt:



and imagine a much larger grid over a pit containing the external flammables used to set the bodies on fire, and the ashes and bone fragments you see in the foreground of the Dresden photo in much larger quantity.

The Dresden Altmarkt cremations were a small-scale and more improvised and primitive version of cremations at the AR camps. But the principle was the same, and so was the end result.

Look at the billowing smoke cloud in that photo. Imagine that on a much larger scale and over a much longer period.

Daily spy runs produced no ariel photographic evidence.

[Greg Gerdes]

Retardo:

"What, no more special conditions for me?"


LOL!!! Oh that's a good one stupid. Have you forgotten (from http://www.nafcash.com/ ):

NOTE: If you lack the courage to accept the above facts and you want to continue to deny the truth about the “holocaust,” the “final solution” and the “pure extermination centers,” then the ball is in your court. The supporters of THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM have put their money where their mouths are and it’s time for the criminally fraudulent holocaust industry, their mealy-mouthed “skeptical” minions, their bought whores in the media and their servile Judas-Goats in our government indoctrination centers to put up or shut up. And to further illustrate just what utter frauds Michael Shermer, Andrzej Kola and the members of THE SOBIBOR ARCHAEOLOGY PROJECT are, NAFCASH TM will consider, for the purpose of laying claim to THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM, that Sobibors fraudulent “ASH MOUNTAIN” is one of the alleged “huge mass graves.” This means of course, that this “huge mass graves” exact location and exact dimensions are already known! So you only need to prove that it contains the remains of 2,500 people. What could be easier to do - IF - the claims about this “huge mound of human remains” are true?


Don't you remember dull one, we did that just for you - because you're so special!


Now just how hard should that be to prove dull one? (And no, we will not consider "assumptions based on estimates based on descriptions" as proof.) So there is no need now to wait for Christmas for that GPR unit! (Darn, I was just about to order it for you!) But you better hurry dull one, Yoram could have all this proof written up, in the mail and sent to "SKEPTIC" Magazine this afternoon. (Surely Sobibors resident "archeologist" could use an extra hundred grand - huh Yoram?)


Here it is folks, Sobibors "ash mountain / huge mound of human remains," surrounded by the other 7 alleged "huge mass graves."

http://maps.pomocnik.com/satellite-maps/?map=4194


Which reminds me retardo, why have you (and the fraud Yoram) refused to answer the questions I've asked about said huge mountain? Especially:


Where is the giant pit that the alleged remains came from?

When were the remains found?

Who found the original "huge mass graves" of Sobibor?

What was the date the mountain was created?

Where are all the reports about the grave(s) being found?

Where are all the photos of the grave(s) that these remains came from?

Where are all the photos of the construction of this "ash mountain / huge mound of human remains?

What are you waiting for faggot?

[Slamin2]

Originally Posted by ced smythe

Look at the billowing smoke cloud in that photo. Imagine that on a much larger scale and over a much longer period.

Daily spy runs produced no ariel photographic evidence.

There were no daily spy runs over Treblinka at the time at issue.

But nice strawman.

[ced smythe]

Slamin, see post 1240

[ced smythe]

As if.