There Never Was A Stone Age

Ah, yes.
Fade the Butcher is back.

Some intriguing history here, for sure. The Takla Makan/Gobi desert is considered to be the largest in the world. The ancient Silk Road branches at the desert, one following the northern perimeter, one following the southern perimeter. Literally translated, Takla Makan means something comparable to "if you enter, you will not return". Takla Makan is located in the Tarim Basin, this being the largest basin in the world. The surrounding mountains have an elevation of some 9,000 feet above sea level. The desert is some 1000 to 3000 feet above sea level. The Tarim Basin is roughly 500 feet below sea level. Just a little scene setting. At one time, there was a great lake located in the basin, long since dried up ( the freshwater lake existed prior to 2345 BCE). There are those who say that this was once a "cradle of civilization" prior to 2345 BCE. The Basin is presently a salt basin with a few oasises here and there around its perimeter. The Yuezhi, a branch of the Tocharians, went westward to establish the great Kushan Empire. The Tocharians are related linguistically to the Scythians. These are all considered to be Indo-European (blonde hair/red hair-blue eyes/green eyes). Co-existing with the Yuezhi/Tocharian in from what now is known as Gansu, were a people referred to as Xiongnu, believed to be the ancestors of the mongols. These two diverse groups occupied the area from the Black Sea to the Ural Sea. There will be a little jumping around here, but it is all relevant. The Altai mountains were considered as a sacred place by the Scythians. In the Ukok Plateau is where the "Ice Maiden" was discovered. The ice maiden was roughly 5'6" tall with blonde hair. To identify the remains, the mummy was turned over to a forensics specialist who did work for the Moscow police and the KGB. Her findings were that the ice maiden was definitely of the caucasian race with no mongol features. Other graves were found containing remains of other caucasians. Some more jumping around. The closest relatives-linguistically-of the Tocharian language being celtic and early germanic. Back to Tocharians. Somewhere in the mixture of names for culture/people, the Dayuan (Ta-yuan/Dawan) come in. Also of Indo-European features. What all these had in common besides language and physical features is that all were superb horsemen, archers, fierce warriors both male and female, and an ancient legend of their origin. A place referred to as Barguzin Tukum is considered to be the legendary home of the Tocharians. Interesting to note is that there is a present day city called Ust Barguzin on the shores of Lake Baikal where the Angara River flows into the lake. Before I go on forever in a single post, I am taking a break.

[Professor of Racial Cleansing...]

Shirt: The Takla Makan/Gobi desert is considered to be the largest in the world.

According to this chart http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778851.htmlthe combined area of the Taklamakan and Gobi deserts combined is only 605,000 square miles in area, whereas the Sahara Desert is 3,500,000 square miles, making it six times larger in area than the Taklamakan/Gobi desert. Even the Arabian Desert is almost twice as large as the Taklamakan/Gobi desert, as well as Australia's four deserts, which, combined, are almost as large as the Taklamakan/Gobi Desert.

Not trying to play Alex Trebek's "Jeopardy" here, but I do like to get the facts straight.

Originally Posted by Professor of Racial Cleansing

Shirt: The Takla Makan/Gobi desert is considered to be the largest in the world.

According to this chart http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778851.htmlthe combined area of the Taklamakan and Gobi deserts combined is only 605,000 square miles in area, whereas the Sahara Desert is 3,500,000 square miles, making it six times larger in area than the Taklamakan/Gobi desert. Even the Arabian Desert is almost twice as large as the Taklamakan/Gobi desert, as well as Australia's four deserts, which, combined, are almost as large as the Taklamakan/Gobi Desert.

Not trying to play Alex Trebek's "Jeopardy" here, but I do like to get the facts straight.

No problem. It has been awhile since I have done any research in this area. For some reason I had included this statement in my notes. I would have to go back through to find where I found this. In the meantime, thanks for correcting this oversight.

Here is a link providing more information on the siberian ice maiden. An interesting side note is that the buryat mongols also claim Barguzin Tukum as their ancient homeland. Blue Wolf and his consort Red Deer being the "mentors" of the ancestors. It is believed by many that the mongols adapted these beliefs from the Tocharians.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcr...7siberian.html

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by jozu

Why not? ... we could kick those little Phorafag's asses.

We accept the challenge.





^^ That's about right. The Phora is already twice as active as VNN Forum. Hmm. Maybe you guys should redouble your TAA efforts.

If you are here to start a forum to forum flame war, Daedalus, you need to start a thread in the Nutzpah. Otherwise contribute some information/perspective relevant to this thread. Under the thread heading a broad range of topics can be discussed. I do not think your contribution is one of them. I am sure you know the rules as well as, if not better than, most of the posters to VNN.

[FranzJoseph]

Copper "Oxhydes" similar to the ones we dug up.

When I was 23 I got to work for the coal & ore handling division of the old U.S.Steel. I'd been in administration right before I got out of the navy so I wanted something as far away from an office as I could get.

The 70s were great on the Lakes, I'm not kidding. This is the era when the Edmund Fitzgerald sank, arctic winters had people predicting a new ice age, the works. The old dudes I worked with had been in steel since the 30s and had been in the big strike of 1958. What they hadn't seen and didn't know wasn't worth seeing or knowing.

In the Bronze Age copper ingots were poured into molds shaped like oxhides. Sometimes they're called "oxhydes" by people in the business so you know they mean ingots, not an animal skins. First one I saw was in the winter of 1974 when a coal belt broke because of it; somehow the oxhyde got into a coal car when it was shipped. I was lucky an old timer was with me that night because it looked like a really screwed up hunk of scrap to me, nothing unusual.

A copper oxhyde from the Bronze Age looks just like they do in the photo up top. They are about 14 inches across and no more than a yard long. Before it was over I saw dozens of them and never did I see one more than an inch thick.

The old guy I was working with told me to send it right back to the furnace and never say a word about them to anyone else. He had no clue why exactly, but whenever one of these got to the office a whole lot of attention (the kind corporations don't like) starts happening and so we keep this out of the limelight. This gets "the low profile treatment" he told me (Nixon was getting run out of office at the time.)

I kept that in mind but did some research, the kind that ran into some money back in the pre-Internet days. What I found out early was oxhydes were peculiar to Europe and the Mediterranian cultures; a stack of them were tested in Lebanon one year and are known to have been shipped either by Mycenae or Egypt before the 12th Century BC.

Straight south of me is Ohio's mound region and the Hopewell road area; I've found several oxhydes and 3 war axe heads, probably Minoan in origin (more about Minos below). I had a lot of objections to these being mined by Europeans when I first started. I wasn't a liberal but I knew the local "Indian" population used plenty of copper. The fact that this was copper country was known by enough people that they wanted a copper hawk (found near the Great Serpent Mound) to be on a revised Ohio state flag.

This is the copper hawk they meant:


The problem is that the Royal Falcon is not too common among natives in North America, but it's been rife in the Mediterranian area since the very beginning ("Stone Age" if you want to be ironic for the moment; the Horus Hawk was the symbol of the king of Egypt since prehistory.) That plus the fact no one can date this Ohio bird or fit it into any culture that ever lived here has caused some debate among experts who won't touch the European hypothesis.

I got out of US Steel in '78 to start a business and I sold five oxhydes as antiques over the next couple years. You get no attention whatsoever if you tell them they're Mediterranian or European (they poured tin into oxhyde molds too). Since I figured that's where they were headed for, I couldn't attract much attention and I didn't.

Not till later did I read Barry Fell's Bronze Age America, then other works which fleshed out the story further, that told me what I didn't know when I was busy either at steel plants or in business.

The dates for the copper that left the Great Lakes area falls into late Third Millenium (2300 BC) to slightly into our era (AD 600) with the last activity considered minimal. Maybe the Romans opened the pits for a small period of time. The amout of copper removed duing the Bronze Age itself (17-12th Century BC) was gigantic, millions of tons are known to have been taken from Michigan's Upper Peninsula and Isle Royale in Ontario to Europe and the Mediterranian.

The most accurate and readable author on this subject (no shit) is Frank Joseph, who started popularizing the subject with the book Atlantis in Wisconsin. Sounds a gag book, but Joseph uses very good sources and has a lot of pertinent information in a good, readable format. (For those of you who aren't aware of Joseph's previous career: He was earlier known as Frank Collins, neo-nazi, who led the March on Skokie in the late 1970s.)

The best place to find oxhydes and Minoan axe heads (from my experience anyway) is around the Hopewell Road and Mound City areas in Ohio, and the Keneesaw Peninsula or the Huron Mountains in Michigan. A friend with a full set of scuba gear who dives the lakes has brought back more substantial stuff, dating to mid-16th Century BC and clearly marked with the culture of origin. This remains a subject of controversy but there's a work available that clears up most of it.

Bronze Age kingdoms didn't just order their navies to go hither and yon to find copper and tin, these routes were established long ago. Barry Fell, mentioned earlier, was able to accurately date an arrangement with a northern kingdom for copper to around the 17th Century BC. Fell's book contains lots of information on what I guess we have to call the "proto-norsemen" who had that trade route for around 4-5 centuries.

The others are a matter of record too. You can see the "chevron" marker for the Egyptian navy all over this area (two horizontal zig-zag lines, which is the Egyptian letter "n") but the very best is the Minoan connection.

It's another man's story. Roger Jewell worked for the US Forest service for a lot of years, seems to have made finds similar to my own, but he was able to lock down the Minoan activity in Michigan with great accuracy along with interpreting evidence that points to Minoans that looks almost beyond dispute.

Jewell's site is named after the title of his book, Ancient Mines of Kitchi-Gummi: http://jewellhistories.com/ancient_mines.htm

Okay, I've gone on too long as is, but for an interesting intro to this subject, James Bailey's books Sailing to Paradise and Titans and Sea Kings are highly recommended. Bailey, like Barry Fell, was too big a gun to be ignored by the major publishers which is why they got to print. The people who know the most about this subject, you will not be surprised to know, are buffs. Jewell is a retired forrester who self-published his book, Frank Joseph remains a bit disreputable over the Skokie thing, and others are in about the same boat.

One buff, another retired guy named James Grimes, wrote and self-published a kid's book called The Incredible Bronze Age Journey. There's a catch: Grimes loads the book from start to finish with impeccable references for anyone who thinks he made anything up. Grimes' book is a surprisingly detailed fiction concerning how the 15th Century BC Minoans made connections and got the copper back to the Med. His references amount to a course in Bronze Age Trans-Atlantic History.

They were white and they were here. There's plenty of information to get anyone started who thinks they weren't. And I kept one of my axe heads for... uh, decoration.

[Mike in Denver]

Amazing post FJ,

You really need to retire so you can do this full time. When I first started reading Frank Joseph's articles, I wondered a bit, if he might be you.

Enkidu

[Mike in Denver]

Not till later did I read Barry Fell's Bronze Age America, then other works which fleshed out the story further, that told me what I didn't know when I was busy either at steel plants or in business.

Years ago, I read a Berry Fell Book. I don't think it was this one. At my job, I mentioned a few things to the people I worked with. Their reaction was strange, even shocking to me. There was a little bit of mocking, but mostly they became angry--really angry. They weren't Indians (Native American) or even particularly sympathetic to Indian concerns. They weren't even liberal, but they sure got angry.

People really don't like to have the standard story threatened.

Enkidu

In 2005, genetic research was performed on the Taklamakan mummies. It was determined that the mummies were caucasian and even more importantly that they preceded the east asians in the area by at least 1000 years. It was also determined that the uighurs and the kazaks are mixtures of caucasian and east asian.

http://www.dawn.com/2005/04/22/int14.htm

Of further interest is Pamela Logan's Asian Adventure page. She graduated with a professional degree in aerospace science from Stanford and ended up in the Taklamakan desert locating ancient civilizations that have been buried under the ever shifting sands and "sensed" by satellite. Start with "Detailed Project Proposal and Eurasian Origins Foundation Prospectus". Link provided so that you can explore her site at your leisure.

http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~pamlogan/silkroad/

[FranzJoseph]

Thanks fellas. I actually have a timetable to turn all my projects into a full time job. Question is when. My stocks are all in the toilet. I've been doing damage control all day, no dice.

Originally Posted by Enkidu

Years ago, I read a Berry Fell Book. I don't think it was this one. At my job, I mentioned a few things to the people I worked with. Their reaction was strange, even shocking to me... People really don't like to have the standard story threatened.

I probably should have mentioned, before it was over, how much they really hated Fell. He was a Welshman who did not suffer fools gladly but he was uncommonly sharp, he was all over this country several times and deciphering things no one else could come close to tackling. One of his major discoveries was that there was a strain of Polynesian in parts of Asia Minor in the old days and it accounts for some of the inscrutable writings and markings you find in the Eastern Woodlands. Celician pirates spoke a language in part related to Hawaiian.

Fell's one book, America B.C. came out in a revised edition in 1992, the 500th anniversary of Columbus's trip. Fell had nothing against Columbus but he knew there were plenty of people who made the trip first. Made Fell plenty of enemies. I don't know if some of the really nasty stuff about him is online, but he was called nuts in any number of mainstream magazines back then. They never refuted his findings, they just called him loony.

Fell is now dead. How'd that old joke go? I hope they buried him upside down so his critics could kiss his... it rhymes somehow but I forget how.

[FranzJoseph]

Originally Posted by Doppelhaken

How do you think they knew the copper was there? There was so much risk, so much expense to undertake these trans-global expeditions, were they just taking shots in the dark all over N America, or did they perhaps have a technology for locating huge deposits of copper?

From Atlantis in Wisconsin, p. 7 (cited because Frank Joseph, the author, is using references only specialists can get their hands on):

...The genius of these third-millenium-B.C. miners extended to their unknown but highly accurate methods for locating copper veins. Every historic Lake Superior mine opened over the last two hundred years was previously worked by the Ancients, who mined all the productive veins throughout the region. DuTemple writes: "As some of these veins do not out-crop at the surface, but were discovered only upon excavation, it is seen that these prehistoric peoples posssessed a gift or ability that present day man would find very valuable..."

The part in bold always gets me. It checks against a dozen other sources: Nobody in the modern era has found any substantial source of copper in this region. It was all discovered and developed three to four thousand years ago. We re-opened veins that had already been worked.

James Bailey notes some peculiarities of the copper in the Great Lake region that makes it highly exploitable. This isn't the only region in the world that carries this question mark. Bailey spends time dealing Brazil which has some interesting... well, historical peculiarities like we do here.

Bronze Age buff Tom Slattery speculated that the importance of ore from that ancient era is embedded in modern languages, but you have to go back at least two steps earlier than academic etymology usually allows. For instance, "tin" could have derived from the earlier Egyptian word "dn" and might even be exact since in the Egyptian language "d" and "t" are generally interchangeable.

Slattery also notes that the modern English word "ore" comes from the Indo-European word "ar"; hence "Aryan" might literally have meant "Ore-man" at one time. Since a successful "Ore-man" would have been able to write his own ticket, the later meaning "nobleman" would have derived from the earlier job description. Slattery admits he's speculating but I find it plausible. Just consider how much power having a lock on a valuable commodity is now and it's not an untenable derivation at all.

How did they know where the copper was? I can guess, but that's all I can do. I stayed away from "pyramidology" despite developing a great curiousity about Egypt. One thing I do know, just from general handbooks, is that the Great Pyramid's dimensions are scaled to dimensions of the Northern Hemisphere. How did they know that? Whoever made the GP had to have plenty of information, perhaps from extremely ancient sources, older than mining on the lakes even, to have known those dimensions.

Just to show how circular all this gets, here's an curiosity that drove me up the wall first time I heard it: Cahokia's "Monk's Mound" (a damaged old pyramid, actually) in Illinois is built on a far, far older site than the Indian city that thrived there around the time of Columbus. It's proximity to Copper Country is clear and and it sits on a base of 13 acres. The Aztec "pyramid of the moon" sits on an ancient site too, and has clear proximity to the metal regions known to have been in Brazil, Peru and points south. The ground the Aztecs redeveloped might have been the hub of ore shipping in the Bronze Age. The Aztec pyramid has a 13 acre base. The distribution center in the Mediterranian area of course was near the GP itself which also has a 13 acre base.

Did the same culture build them all? Were the design specifications for these "monuments" more practical and functional than we've supposed?

All the indigenous cultures of these ore-rich areas have legends of "white gods" who built civilizations, created codes of law, then split, often promising to return. White ore-men would answer that question if we can collect more evidence, nail down some harder dates. But not as long as our culture remains hostile to the very idea of whites having built earlier and great civilizations here.

Think of the fight over Kennewick Man and the treatment Barry Fell got from his "fellow scholars" as reference points.

[Talisman]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

Years ago, I read a Berry Fell Book. I don't think it was this one. At my job, I mentioned a few things to the people I worked with. Their reaction was strange, even shocking to me. There was a little bit of mocking, but mostly they became angry--really angry. They weren't Indians (Native American) or even particularly sympathetic to Indian concerns. They weren't even liberal, but they sure got angry.

People really don't like to have the standard story threatened.

Enkidu

Yeah, I've gotten the same reaction when mentioning the tocharians.

basically, the attitude is, 'how dare you suggest horrible, racist, Whites gave non-whites thier culture & technology, instead of the other way around.

And how dare you question the established fact that these are the eternal homelands of the colored peoples and that we have absolutely no right to be here.'

yep, theres a good deal o White folks that don't deserve to go on breathing.

[Armanen]

[QUOTE]What all these had in common besides language and physical features is that all were superb horsemen, archers, fierce warriors both male and female, and an ancient legend of their origin.[QUOTE]


I don't buy into this there were feirce female warroirs in anceint times nonsense. No woman could really be strong enough to fight men in battle in the real world, only in jewish Hollywood movie fantasyland. This idea is just being promoted to support the modern day feminist and godess worship craze, it's just regurgitated jewish feminism wraped up in a new package.

[FranzJoseph]

Originally Posted by Armanen

I don't buy into this there were feirce female warroirs in anceint times nonesense...

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater over femi-ZOGS.

Germanic women fought along side their men when they were taking on the Romans, and Rome didn't lie about it. You can read their accounts.

The women were support not infantry from what I can tell. This is how come you see Diana the Huntress with a bow. Female archers shooting from the trees would make excellent support for their menfolk.

American pioneer women did the same sort of thing. This is not feminism. This is more about when the tribe has to get all hands in battle or not survive at all. (Hint -- This sort of thing might be coming round again.)

Despite the help of the womenfolk shooting arrows, Julius Caesar managed to slaughter an entire nation of white folk so it didn't always work. But fuck it. They tried anyway.

[Hugo Böse]

Originally Posted by Shirt

Has anyone heard of Catal Huyuk? Last I knew, the first layer of this ancient civilized metropolis was dated somewhere around 6,500 BCE. It's situated somewhere along the Great Salt Depresssion in central Turkey. The site is located on the Lower Road of the ancient trade route the Royal Road. From the many artifacts found, it was apparently a metal-working, specialized craft, and trade center for surrounding areas. Jericho was merely a trading post and armed village at this time. It's one of those that I never got around to researching more extensively. It came to mind at mention of the Sumerians.

http://www.catalhoyuk.com/history.html
The site didn't mention any metal working, but it is impressive nonetheless