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Old August 15th, 2004 #21
JohnJizmTree
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Amazing details.

Last edited by JohnJizmTree; August 15th, 2004 at 02:42 PM.
 
Old August 15th, 2004 #22
Dasyurus Maculatus
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[QUOTE=AnnieOakley Epiphanes wrote[I]"I normally dont approve of suicide but in this case his deeds were exceptional and you puking forth of that kosher vomit about him here will not be appreciated. "[/I] .[/QUOTE:

Yeah my old man must have been an 'unorthodox' j** then ? - because he was in the SturmAbteilung and took part in the events fighting for Germany, but thats bye the bye 'AnnieOakley' old girl.

But back to timeline Berlin May and April 1945 at the time of Hitler's last will and testament:

Goebbels had to issue an order on Saturday 21st April 1945 as the senior Nazis rushed out of Berlin to leave Adolf 'high and dry' against the encroaching red menace. Over 2,000 'passes' had suddenly been requested by Nazi Party 'Armchair warriors'.

Colonel von Refior (General Reymann's Chief of Staff) had commented on the 'rats leaving the sinking ship' as Goebbels order was transmitted by Werwolfsender that 'no man capable of bearing arms may leave Berlin'.

As the Fuehrer waited, brown uniformed Nazi officials described by Reymann as cowards received their passes from his headquarters on the Hohenzollerendamm with his memoirs recording that he was 'happy to sign them, since it was better for the defense of Berlin to be rid of such cowards'.

Many who couldnt get a pass or run away committed suicide - including Goebbels who opted not to fight.

Whilst the ordinary soldier was engaged in waging the final and greatest decisive battle of the Reich, the 'Armchair warriors' (in whose ignoble ranks the likes of AnniOakleyus Epiphaneus would be included if in that time and scenario?) had to be kept in line by the threat of the noose or a firing squad.

I still think it spineless that people (irrespective of their rank or importance real or imaginary) who could have aimed and fired a gun at the invading Russian horde, opted instead to commit suicide - the loser's way out.
 
Old August 15th, 2004 #23
Antiochus Epiphanes
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Daisy,

Your argument is a moving target. First its how Hitler was a coward. Now youre talking about 2000 other Nazi party members. Well. Hitler wasnt a coward and he had a warlord's death at his own hand in the Roman manner. Goebbels was a mastermind of the first order and I can only say it makes me cringe how he took his beautiful family with him. I can only understand that in light of the hateful revenge that I have seen Jews try and take on people's families... and say that Goebbels knew that after all he had done, a sickening fate awaited them if they lived. The Jew Zealots did no less at their vaunted "Masada" eh?

As for you calling me Annie Oakley, that is funny. I take it as a compliment as she was a reknowned shooter. I'm not tenth the sharpshooter she was to be sure but I'm a passable shot at IDPA and IPSC. If you want to insult me to my face you can use your wits to find me and say what you've got to say like any other. I've got regular hours and if you've got the capability and smarts and balls to find me we can see who is a coward face to face.

Otherwise I would point out to you that this is the "civil forum" and your suggestion that "the 'Armchair warriors' (in whose ignoble ranks the likes of AnniOakleyus Epiphaneus would be included" if is pretty uncivil.

As for your pops being in the Wehrmacht, him and a few million others. I've met more than one and most of them dont like to talk about it is my experience. Are you saying your kin's view is the only correct view? Are you saying I am a coward because I disagree? Why dont you look up "argument ad hominem" and find out the quality of that socalled "armument"

Good day to you Daisy-
 
Old August 15th, 2004 #24
Mike Jahn
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[QUOTE=Dasyurus Maculatus]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnieOakley Epiphanes wrote[I
"I normally dont approve of suicide but in this case his deeds were exceptional and you puking forth of that kosher vomit about him here will not be appreciated. "[/I] .[/QUOTE:

Yeah my old man must have been an 'unorthodox' j** then ? - because he was in the SturmAbteilung and took part in the events fighting for Germany, but thats bye the bye 'AnnieOakley' old girl.

But back to timeline Berlin May and April 1945 at the time of Hitler's last will and testament:

Goebbels had to issue an order on Saturday 21st April 1945 as the senior Nazis rushed out of Berlin to leave Adolf 'high and dry' against the encroaching red menace. Over 2,000 'passes' had suddenly been requested by Nazi Party 'Armchair warriors'.

Colonel von Refior (General Reymann's Chief of Staff) had commented on the 'rats leaving the sinking ship' as Goebbels order was transmitted by Werwolfsender that 'no man capable of bearing arms may leave Berlin'.

As the Fuehrer waited, brown uniformed Nazi officials described by Reymann as cowards received their passes from his headquarters on the Hohenzollerendamm with his memoirs recording that he was 'happy to sign them, since it was better for the defense of Berlin to be rid of such cowards'.

Many who couldnt get a pass or run away committed suicide - including Goebbels who opted not to fight.

Whilst the ordinary soldier was engaged in waging the final and greatest decisive battle of the Reich, the 'Armchair warriors' (in whose ignoble ranks the likes of AnniOakleyus Epiphaneus would be included if in that time and scenario?) had to be kept in line by the threat of the noose or a firing squad.

I still think it spineless that people (irrespective of their rank or importance real or imaginary) who could have aimed and fired a gun at the invading Russian horde, opted instead to commit suicide - the loser's way out.
First of all, most of the upper Wehrmacht Generals couldn't wait to surrender to the Western allies at that point in the war. Your story of the Battle of Berlin sounds nothing like the one in every major History book. From what I've heard, those 10,000 Hitler Youth boys who were sent to hold the Havel bridges to the west of Berlin did more fighting than your precious General Wenck, Reymann, or Heinrici. Hell, the remainder of the Waffen-SS Nordland Division made up of Norwegians, French, Danes, and Swedes did a better job of defending the heart of Berlin than the Wehrmacht Generals who were too busy trying to avoid Russian captivity which is ironically the same VICE you accuse Hitler and Goebbels of.
 
Old August 15th, 2004 #25
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So Dasyurus now has nothing else to attack Hitler and Goebbels for than taking their own lives. *S*

On top of that, Dasyurus, your last post indicates that you don't understand what an "armchair warrior" is. It's someone who doesn't have any part in the fighting but who still complains and thinks he could have done it better -- like you in this thread. Those who do have a role in the war, whether as soldiers or as officers, cannot be called armchair warriors, and neither can it be used to slander a civilian for not taking part in the fighting; if you want an insult for them you'll have to come up with another one, but to use "armchair warriors" is erroneous.

Last edited by Fredrik Haerne; August 15th, 2004 at 07:10 PM.
 
Old August 16th, 2004 #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoRemer
First of all, most of the upper Wehrmacht Generals couldn't wait to surrender to the Western allies at that point in the war. Your story of the Battle of Berlin sounds nothing like the one in every major History book. From what I've heard, those 10,000 Hitler Youth boys who were sent to hold the Havel bridges to the west of Berlin did more fighting than your precious General Wenck, Reymann, or Heinrici. Hell, the remainder of the Waffen-SS Nordland Division made up of Norwegians, French, Danes, and Swedes did a better job of defending the heart of Berlin than the Wehrmacht Generals who were too busy trying to avoid Russian captivity which is ironically the same VICE you accuse Hitler and Goebbels of.
"I wish my Generals had your courage."
 
Old August 16th, 2004 #27
Dasyurus Maculatus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik Haerne
So Dasyurus now has nothing else to attack Hitler and Goebbels for than taking their own lives. *S*

On top of that, Dasyurus, your last post indicates that you don't understand what an "armchair warrior" is. It's someone who doesn't have any part in the fighting but who still complains and thinks he could have done it better -- like you in this thread. Those who do have a role in the war, whether as soldiers or as officers, cannot be called armchair warriors, and neither can it be used to slander a civilian for not taking part in the fighting; if you want an insult for them you'll have to come up with another one, but to use "armchair warriors" is erroneous.
The term 'Armchair Warriors' was not my term, nor of my invention.
It is a term I had quoted from Historian Anthony Beevor's detailed analysis of the Fall of Berlin in 1945.

Whether its taken as a term of slander? or as a fitting and accurate description? ; depends on your sensitivity or that of the receptor.

OttoRemer quotes; "..trying to avoid Russian captivity which is ironically the same VICE you accuse Hitler and Goebbels of.".
I had not "accused" anyone of "trying to avoid captivity" nor explicitly of "VICE" either.

But as you mention the term vice, I state that the reprehensible and terminal "VICE" of suicide, was cowardly. Instead of having the soldiers courage to fight others, the high profile characters in the thread topped themselves, the Wussmeister's option.

Whilst children were sent by Goebbels and Hitler to fight on the front line, Hitler and Goebbels opted tostay well away, and even kill themselves before the front line came knocking on their front door. They would then have have had to risk the same fortunes of a war that they had condemned millions of others to experience .

Instead of having the balls to trust in the hands of fate and Soldatenluck, they topped themselves.

Last edited by Dasyurus Maculatus; August 16th, 2004 at 02:26 AM.
 
Old August 16th, 2004 #28
Antiochus Epiphanes
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As a Christian I deplore suicide. However, on the part of Hitler and Goering, I think we have exceptional cases. Hitler would have been captured by the Reds and the certain illegal actions against his person would have humiliated the German nation. If anything, his suicide, at the final moment, was a final gift to the folk of Germany.

I spoke my peace on Goering. He revitalized himself from a physically and mentally debilitated state, and rose to defended the actions of the government at the illegal drumhead courtmartial called Nuremberg and right before the end deprived the illegal tribunal its gory trophy. His conduct was an example of National Socialist resilience, pluck, elan and and loyalty.
 
Old August 16th, 2004 #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
As a Christian I deplore suicide. However, on the part of Hitler and Goering, I think we have exceptional cases. Hitler would have been captured by the Reds and the certain illegal actions against his person would have humiliated the German nation. If anything, his suicide, at the final moment, was a final gift to the folk of Germany.

I spoke my peace on Goering. He revitalized himself from a physically and mentally debilitated state, and rose to defended the actions of the government at the illegal drumhead courtmartial called Nuremberg and right before the end deprived the illegal tribunal its gory trophy. His conduct was an example of National Socialist resilience, pluck, elan and and loyalty.
Why does it seem that Hitler and Goering's military service in the First World War means nothing to these people? Or is this merely typical behavior we should expect from ANTIS?
 
Old August 16th, 2004 #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasyurus Maculatus
The term 'Armchair Warriors' was not my term, nor of my invention.
It is a term I had quoted from Historian Anthony Beevor's detailed analysis of the Fall of Berlin in 1945.
Again, I iterate: you use the term incorrectly when you use it as slander against officers or civilians for not fighting. It is used for people who don't have any part in a war but who talk about how they could have run it better. What you want to insult here does not fall into that category, book or no book, so you'll have to find some other word to use.

And again, suicide is not cowardly under those circumstances. What do you think, could Hitler and Goebbels have turned back the Russians if they had become footsoldiers? Two more soldiers would have done the trick? Of course not. It was good that they avoided capture. If you want to attack Hitler, find something else.
 
Old August 16th, 2004 #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
I spoke my peace on Goering. He revitalized himself from a physically and mentally debilitated state, and rose to defended the actions of the government at the illegal drumhead courtmartial called Nuremberg and right before the end deprived the illegal tribunal its gory trophy. His conduct was an example of National Socialist resilience, pluck, elan and and loyalty.
Absolutely: he performed well at the Nürnberg trial, with his fantastic memory. In the book about the trial it is clear that he ripped apart the prosecution's case. It was a farce, a show trial like those the communists held in the Soviet Union, one of the clearest examples of all times of how the Jews exploit and distort our laws and systems.

When the case against Milosevic was prepared in Hague, one of the judges was asked by a journalist at a press conference why the gathering of evidence took longer than before the Nürnberg trial. His reply: "We wanted to do a better job this time."
 
Old August 16th, 2004 #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik Haerne
Absolutely: he performed well at the Nürnberg trial, with his fantastic memory. In the book about the trial it is clear that he ripped apart the prosecution's case. It was a farce, a show trial like those the communists held in the Soviet Union, one of the clearest examples of all times of how the Jews exploit and distort our laws and systems.

When the case against Milosevic was prepared in Hague, one of the judges was asked by a journalist at a press conference why the gathering of evidence took longer than before the Nürnberg trial. His reply: "We wanted to do a better job this time."
Yes and Milosevic took a page from Goering's book in two ways: firstly denying the jurisdiction and legitimacy of the tribunal, and secondly, by arguing that as an acting head of state he was covered by sovereign immunity. strong defences and the bottom line is that the tribunals and liars and hypocrites for granstanding about "international law" when the idea of sovereign immunity is one of the most basic tenets of international law there is.

And you are right, officers at the level of generals and heads of state are strategic and in modern warfare have the ability and responsibility to direct the battle from a position of command control and communication which usually is not in the trench next to the buck private. But Daisy knows better!
 
Old June 19th, 2007 #33
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Anyone who talks shit about Hitler isn't a true WN.

He fought in WWI. And he led in WWII. And he would sooner kill himself then let the jews make a mockery out of germany with their bread and circus executions. He gave his entire life to the white race.

Anyone who would side with the jew character assassins and discreditors of Hitler deserves to be lined up against the wall and shot along with the hooked-nose kikenvermin.
 
Old June 19th, 2007 #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dietrich14 View Post
Anyone who talks shit about Hitler isn't a true WN.

He fought in WWI. And he led in WWII. And he would sooner kill himself then let the jews make a mockery out of germany with their bread and circus executions. He gave his entire life to the white race.

Anyone who would side with the jew character assassins and discreditors of Hitler deserves to be lined up against the wall and shot along with the hooked-nose kikenvermin.
I agree. Let the critics show us how they have surpassed his achievements.
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Old June 19th, 2007 #35
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Well, Hitler is not above criticism, but insults we can do without. It's dangerous to start putting people on a godlike pedestal.
 
Old October 9th, 2008 #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes View Post
Hitler wasnt a coward and he had a warlord's death at his own hand in the Roman manner ... The Jew Zealots did no less at their vaunted "Masada" eh?
The Masada story is basically fiction, but the comparison to Mr. Hitler is very appropriate.

When Hitler does it he dies a coward.

When jews do it they die as unconquered heroes.

One rule for jews and another standard for everyone else.
 
Old October 9th, 2008 #37
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Maybe Himmler was busy trying to work out a peace agreement and was murdered while Hitler made sure that his body was dead and mutilated to insure the Red Army as little mileage from his death as possible. OR, maybe he went to Argentina. I dont know what the hell Goering was doing other than attempting an escape to live to fight another day. In the end he denied his captors the reward of his death at their hands.
 
Old October 9th, 2008 #38
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One thing that's always bothered me is where the hell did Goering get the cyanide pill?
And don't tell me it was secreted in the hollow of a uniform button because I can't believe his Allied captors didn't go over with a fine tooth comb every item the Herr Field Marshall had on his person at the time of his arrest!
Anybody know?
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Old October 9th, 2008 #39
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Originally Posted by MikeTodd View Post
One thing that's always bothered me is where the hell did Goering get the cyanide pill?
And don't tell me it was secreted in the hollow of a uniform button because I can't believe his Allied captors didn't go over with a fine tooth comb every item the Herr Field Marshall had on his person at the time of his arrest!
Anybody know?
I think I remember reading it was smuggled into his cell concealed inside a writing pen by a guard or a secretary.
 
Old October 9th, 2008 #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B View Post
I think I remember reading it was smuggled into his cell concealed inside a writing pen by a guard or a secretary.
Here's an interesting article about it:

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/feb...al/me-goering7
 
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