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Old March 12th, 2010 #1
April
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Default Holocaust debate film, Kalispell Montana

HOLOCAUST DEBATE KALISPELL MONTANA

Will Be shown on March 29th, 2010 at 7:00pm at the Flathead County Public Library. This serious debate features Michael Shermer, Publisher of Skeptic Magazine going head-to-head with historian and author Mark Weber discussing what could be called the “Most Significant Event Of The Twentieth Century!”


The “Holocaust” Is the Corner Stone to the social, political, and religious changes of the modern civilized world, today, Therefore, any progress of humankind must hinge on the examination of the facts in this matter- that the “Holocaust” find it’s proper place in history.


The DVD Lecture is open to the public and is free of charge and the purpose of the lecture is to prompt civil, intelligent discussion of such an important issue among the good citizens of the State Of Montana.


Any Questions or Comments please call 406-249-7298
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Old March 15th, 2010 #2
Igor Alexander
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Can this video be downloaded or watched online anywhere?
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Old March 16th, 2010 #3
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Originally Posted by Igor Alexander View Post
Can this video be downloaded or watched online anywhere?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7394376971987#

it's 15 years old, and the audio is not great. Shermer was in way over his head and got schooled. he got his revenge five years later, when he and alex grobman came out with a book attacking Weber and the other prominent holocaust revisionists.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by April View Post
HOLOCAUST DEBATE KALISPELL MONTANA

Will Be shown on March 29th, 2010 at 7:00pm at the Flathead County Public Library. This serious debate features Michael Shermer, Publisher of Skeptic Magazine going head-to-head with historian and author Mark Weber discussing what could be called the “Most Significant Event Of The Twentieth Century!”


The “Holocaust” Is the Corner Stone to the social, political, and religious changes of the modern civilized world, today, Therefore, any progress of humankind must hinge on the examination of the facts in this matter- that the “Holocaust” find it’s proper place in history.


The DVD Lecture is open to the public and is free of charge and the purpose of the lecture is to prompt civil, intelligent discussion of such an important issue among the good citizens of the State Of Montana.


Any Questions or Comments please call 406-249-7298
Flathead ? hardly enhances the image
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Old March 16th, 2010 #5
Igor Alexander
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Originally Posted by George Witzgall View Post
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7394376971987#

it's 15 years old, and the audio is not great. Shermer was in way over his head and got schooled. he got his revenge five years later, when he and alex grobman came out with a book attacking Weber and the other prominent holocaust revisionists.
Thanks.

I don't think I've ever seen Weber as agitated as in his rebuttal.

The types of arguments Shermer pulls out illustrate what I mean when I say that the holocaust is a conspiracy theory. Saying that the NS systematically exterminated 11 million, 6 million of which were jews, and half of those in homicidal gas chambers, is a mighty big claim, and as the "skeptics" love to say, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." So where is the extraordinary proof? All I keep seeing are suspicions and innuendos.

We're supposed to believe everything "survivors" claim at face value, no matter how ludicrous, just because Goebbels, who at any rate would've had nothing to do with running such programs, apparently expressed a desire to see the jews "liquidated" in some of his diaries? Nah, sorry, that doesn't cut it.

That would be like convicting someone of murdering his neighbor just because he happened to say he wanted him dead, and because a neighbor who doesn't like him said he saw him do it. Well, first things first: Where's the body? Where's the murder weapon? That's where you start a murder investigation. The defendants at Nuremberg were found guilty before their trials even began. The reality of the holocaust was assumed before being proven, and that's how it's been ever since.

Forget what Goebbels et al wrote in their diaries. I want answers to these questions: Who designed the gas chambers? How did the gas chambers operate? Where are the blueprints and specifications for the gas chambers? Where are the autopsy reports showing death by cyanide gas? Three million jews allegedly killed in this way and there's not enough forensic evidence to prove that even one was gassed? Quit pissing in my face and telling me it's raining.

As if the lack of evidence isn't enough, there's a long history of lies and falsified evidence used to prop up tall holocaust tales. Why would you need to lie and fabricate evidence if what you were saying was true? Why would you need to throw people in prison for questioning your stories if they were true? Well, obviously because they're not.

Go fuck yourself Michael Shermer.
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Last edited by Igor Alexander; March 16th, 2010 at 10:13 PM.
 
Old March 16th, 2010 #6
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Originally Posted by Igor Alexander View Post
Thanks.

I don't think I've ever seen Weber as agitated as in his rebuttal.

The types of arguments Shermer pulls out illustrate what I mean when I say that the holocaust is a conspiracy theory. Saying that the NS systematically exterminated 11 million, 6 million of which were jews, and half of those in homicidal gas chambers, is a mighty big claim, and as the "skeptics" love to say, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." So where is the extraordinary proof? All I keep seeing are suspicions and innuendos.

We're supposed to believe everything "survivors" claim at face value, no matter how ludicrous, just because Goebbels, who at any rate would've had nothing to do with running such programs, apparently expressed a desire to see the jews "liquidated" in some of his diaries? Nah, sorry, that doesn't cut it.

That would be like convicting someone of murdering his neighbor just because he happened to say he wanted him dead, and because a neighbor who doesn't like him said he saw him do it. Well, first things first: Where's the body? Where's the murder weapon? That's where you start a murder investigation. The defendants at Nuremberg were found guilty before their trials even began. The reality of the holocaust was assumed before being proven, and that's how it's been ever since.

Forget what Goebbels et al wrote in their diaries. I want answers to these questions: Who designed the gas chambers? How did the gas chambers operate? Where are the blueprints and specifications for the gas chambers? Where are the autopsy reports showing death by cyanide gas? Three million jews allegedly killed in this way and there's not enough forensic evidence to prove that even one was gassed? Quit pissing in my face and telling me it's raining.

As if the lack of evidence isn't enough, there's a long history of lies and falsified evidence used to prop up tall holocaust tales. Why would you need to lie and fabricate evidence if what you were saying was true? Why would you need to throw people in prison for questioning your stories if they were true? Well, obviously because they're not.

Go fuck yourself Michael Shermer.
it was so lopsided, it made me want to read more about it; I'm looking at Debunking the Genocide Myth on the IHR website. I'm also going to look at the jewish books so I can evaluate both sides. I really will be stunned if it turns out millions did not, in fact, die in the final years of WWII. This would def turn me into a conspiracy theorist. I might even start believing in ghosts.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #7
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I'm also going to look at the jewish books so I can evaluate both sides.
Believe it or not, it was looking at the jewish/establishment material that more than anything turned me into a denier. I find the revisionist material, especially the longer books, often has the opposite effect on me (i.e., makes me wonder if there isn't some validity to the claims), just because when you take the time to refute claims that are so ridiculous they should only be laughed at, it tends to give them a credibility they wouldn't have if left to stand on their own.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #8
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I really will be stunned if it turns out millions did not, in fact, die in the final years of WWII.
By "millions" I assume you mean millions of jews.

I doubt millions of jews died in the final years of the war, let alone in the entire war. I'd estimate jewish deaths in the labor camps at maybe 250,000, and most of those would've been due to typhus epidemics and malnutrition.

The issue isn't if jews died during the war -- no one denies that they did -- but rather how they died.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #9
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it was so lopsided
I didn't watch the whole thing (2 hours!), but how was it lopsided? Each of the speakers got equal time to make their arguments and Shermer was even given the choice to go first or second.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #10
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By "millions" I assume you mean millions of jews.

I doubt millions of jews died in the final years of the war, let alone in the entire war. I'd estimate jewish deaths in the labor camps at maybe 250,000, and most of those would've been due to typhus epidemics and malnutrition.

The issue isn't if jews died during the war -- no one denies that they did -- but rather how they died.
I think eventually a precise number of how many people died in the camps overall, and how many died of gas inhalation, will only be obtainable by gathering up all the forensic evidence for all to see and analyze.

btw: I don't see a whole lot of difference (morally) between someone starving to death in a camp, or dying of disease due to harsh treatment, and gassing/shooting them.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #11
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I didn't watch the whole thing (2 hours long!), but how was it lopsided? Each of the speakers got equal time to make their arguments and Shermer was even given the choice to go first or second.
shermer was very wishy-washy and basically conceded all his points. he had only been researching the holocaust for a short time (maybe only a couple years) and his experience of visiting supposed gas chambers was very negative and inconclusive (or actually led him to believe that they really were not, in fact, gas chambers).
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Old March 16th, 2010 #12
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At about 1:28:00, watch Shermer squirm. He has no actual evidence that the gas chamber existed; all he can say is that the alleged gas chamber is "in the right spot" where one would have been if it had existed. WTF is that if not a conspiracy theory? Since when is conjecture a substitute for proof?

Is this guy really a skeptic? No, he's not. He's a guy who desperately wants to believe in the gas chambers and is willing to lower his standards of evidence to far below what he would accept as evidence for things he does not want to believe in, like ghosts.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #13
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btw: I don't see a whole lot of difference (morally) between someone starving to death in a camp, or dying of disease due to harsh treatment, and gassing/shooting them.
Perhaps you don't see a difference, but the jews who are pushing this story certainly do. If you don't believe that, go to France or Germany and say what I just said -- but that you feel really bad about the 250,000 that died -- and see what kind of a reception you get.

But addressing your moral argument, I would say that if the malnutrition occurred because the Allies were bombing the supply lines, and if the camp administrators were doing their best to fight these epidemics, well, what did they do wrong?
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Old March 16th, 2010 #14
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shermer was very wishy-washy and basically conceded all his points.
Not sure what you're trying to get at here. Are you saying that Shermer was a strawman?

Revisionists have been trying to get "holocaust scholars" to publicly debate them for decades and these scholars refuse to do it. They either ignore the revisionists or attack them personally. That in itself is telling.

Some of these "holocaust scholars," like Raul Hilberg, along with "survivors," were asked critical questions for the first time ever during the Zuendel trials in Canada, and they did not do well. That's why they refuse to debate revisionists. They can't win a fight that isn't fixed.

If you think there's anyone out there who can argue a stronger case for the 'caust than Michael Shermer, you're wrong. His case is about as strong as it gets.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #15
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I might even start believing in ghosts.
Remember this: you won't be censored, fined, or thrown in prison in France, Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Austria, Hungary, Australia, Canada, the UK and several other countries for saying you don't believe in ghosts. You will for saying you don't believe in the holocaust.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #16
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Not sure what you're trying to get at here. Are you saying that Shermer was a strawman?

Revisionists have been trying to get "holocaust scholars" to publicly debate them for decades and these scholars systematically refuse to do it. They either ignore the revisionists or attack them personally. That in itself is telling.

Some of these "holocaust scholars," like Raul Hilberg, along with "survivors," were asked critical questions for the first time ever during the Zuendel trials in Canada, and they did not do well. That's why they refuse to debate the revisionists.

If you think there's anyone out there who can argue a stronger case for the 'caust than Michael Shermer, you're wrong. His case is about as strong as it gets.
at first I wondered why April would be showing a 15 year old debate, when so much has changed in the past decade and a half. but then I realized no one on the other side wants to debate it, they want to smother discussion about it with anyone who doesn't have their agenda (it's funny, shermer, the skeptic, acknowledged thisat one point in the debate and called himself a "believer", kind of ironic for a so-called skeptic).

anyway, they knew shermer wouldn't be up to writing a book on his own considering his shabby performance, so they made sure to pair him up with a hard-core jew "believer" alex grobman.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #17
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Remember this: you won't be censored, fined, or thrown in prison in France, Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Austria, Hungary, Australia, Canada, and several other countries for saying you don't believe in ghosts. You will for saying you don't believe in the holocaust.
I don't want to talk about ghosts. I don't even know what you mean by ghosts. This isn't the place for it.
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Old March 16th, 2010 #18
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at first I wondered why April would be showing a 15 year old debate, when so much has changed in the past decade and a half. but then I realized no one on the other side wants to debate it, they want to smother discussion about it with anyone who doesn't have their agenda
There's that, but there's also the fact that the revisionist movement has pretty much fallen apart and become a shadow of its former self in the last 15 years. There were a lot of internal problems at the IHR and that organization never got back on its feet. Willis Carto started a revisionist magazine called The Barnes Review but has little interest in the holocaust, feeling that the subject has been beaten to death. Germar Rudolf was very active but then he got deported and jailed (I think he was recently released but that doesn't matter since he'll never be able to express such views again, at least as long as he's a German citizen). Zuendel was jailed, but he was pretty much retired anyways. Faurisson and Toben can't open their mouths publicly because they'll be prosecuted. David Irving I never considered to be a revisionist, at least not in public. Simon Sheppard is in jail. Bradley Smith is the only revisionist I can think of who's still going at this full tilt.
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Last edited by Igor Alexander; March 16th, 2010 at 11:53 PM.
 
Old March 16th, 2010 #19
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I don't want to talk about ghosts. I don't even know what you mean by ghosts. This isn't the place for it.
Don't make me smack you.
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Old March 17th, 2010 #20
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Here ya go, George:

Ghost of holocaust haunts visitor exploring Germany:
http://www.jewishjournal.com/world/a...many_20080502/

The Holocaust is ultimately a ghost story, and Poles have many reasons to be haunted:
http://www.metafilter.com/52537/The-...-to-be-haunted

Ghosts of the Holocaust:
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun...ion/op-buruma3

Edwin Elkington of London, UK sent in this ghost picture of a figure with a shawl on it, perhaps. A real intriguing apparition captured at the Jewish holocaust memorial in Berlin, Germany:

http://www.angelsghosts.com/berlin_ghost_picture



Booga Booga!
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