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Old June 29th, 2013 #1
T-80
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Default What's in your opinion the best on disarm gun?

Some videos are nuts but you have an idea



I think that the best is no complication, very fast and use the less necessary movements!
 
Old July 5th, 2013 #2
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Don't ever do any of the shit in those videos. Especially that first one.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...41&FORM=NVPFVR

Start watching at 24:00.
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Old July 5th, 2013 #3
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There is no disarm in real life, other than to shoot your attackers, or beat them down, first.

If you were so close that you were able to disarm him, why do you think he would not be able to then proceed to disarm you?

Criminals operate in groups, don't put their firearms against your body, and stand several metres away.

Nobody who has any experience with firearms, has ever attended any self defence/firearm training course or is even halfway sober is ever going to put their firearm that close to a person, or stand that close, precisely to prevent themselves being attacked.

By the time they begin using firearms, criminals have been fighting for many years, most trained in prison or by ex cons. They understand all about distance control.

They aren't standing there like dummies. When they are close to you, they are moving, hands on you, surrounding you, shouting, pushing, kicking, often drunk or high, and are usually attacking you and beating you. They pull out the gun after you have been beaten down.

The best self defence techniques are those for law enforcement, taught by ex cops, who operate in close up conditions as a matter of course. These are refined by real life experience, taught to people who will expect to use them.

When the police do disarm, its because the other person was drunk, stoned, hesitated, or the firearms malfunctioned, or was shot by the police before they started shooting.

Police operate in groups for that reason, and there are several of them moving against the person. They usually get shot if they go up against somebody serious.

The same applies to knives etc. Your best defence is to live in a white area, and avoid bad areas.
Wear safety shoes, which have a hardened plastic/steel carry a small fistsized maglite in your pocket, the small ones are great http://www.maglite.com/

Expect to have to kick and beat them down, and expect to be on the ground rolling around, bruised, shocked, kicked.being hit with bricks or sticks, junkies screaming at you.

Streetfighting is vicious in the extreme, and you must expect to be severely injured.

When you see a martial arts instructor training people how to act when they are injured, against multiple attackers, whilst rolling on the ground, then you have a serious instructor.

When they teach people standing up, uninjured against one attacker, who mysteriously stands there and does not react whilst they perform hollywood moves, they are worthless.

If you are close enough to disarm him, he is close enough to then disarm you.
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Old July 6th, 2013 #4
Matthaus Hetzenauer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
There is no disarm in real life, other than to shoot your attackers, or beat them down, first.

If you were so close that you were able to disarm him, why do you think he would not be able to then proceed to disarm you?

Criminals operate in groups, don't put their firearms against your body, and stand several metres away.

Nobody who has any experience with firearms, has ever attended any self defence/firearm training course or is even halfway sober is ever going to put their firearm that close to a person, or stand that close, precisely to prevent themselves being attacked.

By the time they begin using firearms, criminals have been fighting for many years, most trained in prison or by ex cons. They understand all about distance control.

They aren't standing there like dummies. When they are close to you, they are moving, hands on you, surrounding you, shouting, pushing, kicking, often drunk or high, and are usually attacking you and beating you. They pull out the gun after you have been beaten down.

The best self defence techniques are those for law enforcement, taught by ex cops, who operate in close up conditions as a matter of course. These are refined by real life experience, taught to people who will expect to use them.

When the police do disarm, its because the other person was drunk, stoned, hesitated, or the firearms malfunctioned, or was shot by the police before they started shooting.

Police operate in groups for that reason, and there are several of them moving against the person. They usually get shot if they go up against somebody serious.

The same applies to knives etc. Your best defence is to live in a white area, and avoid bad areas.
Wear safety shoes, which have a hardened plastic/steel carry a small fistsized maglite in your pocket, the small ones are great http://www.maglite.com/

Expect to have to kick and beat them down, and expect to be on the ground rolling around, bruised, shocked, kicked.being hit with bricks or sticks, junkies screaming at you.

Streetfighting is vicious in the extreme, and you must expect to be severely injured.

When you see a martial arts instructor training people how to act when they are injured, against multiple attackers, whilst rolling on the ground, then you have a serious instructor.

When they teach people standing up, uninjured against one attacker, who mysteriously stands there and does not react whilst they perform hollywood moves, they are worthless.

If you are close enough to disarm him, he is close enough to then disarm you.
Aw, Christ, here we go -- yet another totally backasswards "how-to" instructional by VNNF's self-proclaimed expert on all things that matter, Baby Huey. *sigh* where to begin "disarming" this moron's latest bullshit...



- Criminals operate individually, as well as in groups. Rashid doesn't need Calvin to split the take.

- Bullshit. If I've got the business end of a .357 cocked against the back of your head I have the advantage, not you -- you're going to shake uncontrollably and wish to God you'd worn your Depends adult diapers that night.

- Cons don't acquire hands-on experience with firearms while in prison, you're right -- they do their business in the joint with shanks. However, these days wannabe "ganstas" have their little brown/black fingers on the trigger before they ever enter juvy, never mind prison. So much for "distance control."

- The best real life experience self-defense techniques are taught by elite ex-military, not cops. The latter are seldom, if ever, involved in life or death physical confrontations.

- Well, I've got to give you that one, Huey: Cops don't get shot by anyone who's not "serious." Most of us class clowns are only "kidding" when we pull a piece on Officer Porker and wind up getting a 9 millie or two in the head.

- You must expect to be "severely injured" in a street fight? Oh! Do tell, Bruce!

- And finally, to put to rest just one of your par-for-the-course half-baked theories on how to do just about anything, here's a little story about a martial arts instructor I knew while doing a three-year hitch in the Army; the man, a former ROK marine by the name of Yae Lee, holding a 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo:

During early morning PT (physical training) he instructed my company for the better part of a year in the Korean martial art of Taekwondo. Offside blocks, overhead blocks, roundhouse kicks and roundhouse punches, you name it, he showed us how to do it. One night he and I decided to go off base and hit a few bars. After having just two or three beers in the first dive we entered, Lee (Mr. Badass himself) got into a little tiff with the bartender serving us. The barkeep threw a wet towel in Lee's face, came around the other side of the bar and more or less called him out right then and there. I'm thinking, "Oh, shit! Now this chump's really gonna get it!" Yeah, the chump got it alright; only it was the wrong chump. Lee assumed his "heeee-yah!" stance, the bartender threw a right and knocked him out cold. End of story.

p.s. A little advice, Hugh: stop trying to portray yourself as Mr. Definitive on every topic under the sun; you're fooling few, if any. Your above post just reeks of off-the-cuff bullshit made up by someone who doesn't have a clue as to wtf he's talking about.
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Last edited by Matthaus Hetzenauer; July 6th, 2013 at 02:55 PM.
 
Old July 8th, 2013 #6
Hugh
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Matthaus, do you think the videos on this thread show realistic scenarios and realistic defences? I don't.

In most such cases, you are best off giving them your wallet and getting away. The chances of defence at that range are almost zero.

Quote:
- Criminals operate individually, as well as in groups.
Not so fast, Matthaus, please. You're making me giddy, I just can't absorb so much new information all at once.

Turning to reality for a brief moment, in real life which would you say the average VNN'er is likely to encounter that is life threatening, a single criminal or more than one criminal? I think more than one, so speak about that situation.

Quote:
- Bullshit. If I've got the business end of a .357 cocked against the back of your head I have the advantage, not you -- you're going to shake uncontrollably and wish to God you'd worn your Depends adult diapers that night.
To quote myself
Quote:
Turning to reality for a brief moment, in real life
Which would you say the average VNN'er is more likely to encounter, a single criminal pressing a .357 against the back of their head, or several criminals standing around them, one or more aiming a gun at their front? I think in most cases they will find the multiple attacker situation, with a gun pointed at their front.

Here's the guns most commonly used by criminals according to the ATF.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...320383,00.html

1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic

Quote:
- Cons don't acquire hands-on experience with firearms while in prison, you're right -- they do their business in the joint with shanks. However, these days wannabe "ganstas" have their little brown/black fingers on the trigger before they ever enter juvy, never mind prison. So much for "distance control."
The average distance at which people get shot is within 5 metres, not within 1 metre which they would have to be standing from their attacker in order for their attacker to be able to press the firearm against their body. That means criminals control the distance they are from their victims, thus I refer to distance control, where most criminals stay out of reach of their victims.

Since most people will therefore not encounter a gun pressed against their body, but rather firearms up to 5 metres from them, that is the scenario they should rather prepare for.
You disagree with reality quite often.

Quote:
- The best real life experience self-defense techniques are taught by elite ex-military, not cops. The latter are seldom, if ever, involved in life or death physical confrontations.
Wow. To think, you walk the streets unsupervised and unmedicated.



Meanwhile, back on earth...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...rsons-arrested
"Nationwide, law enforcement made an estimated 12,408,899 arrests in 2011. Of these arrests, 534,704 were for violent crimes,"

To my mind, arresting 534704 violent criminals entails being involved in life or death physical confrontations. Apparently you don't think arresting violent criminals is dangerous, and does not require using self defence or takedown techniques that we could use.
I think it does.

How many violent criminals per year do the elite military take down and arrest each year in the US? Why not share those figures with us, Matthaus?

To my knowledge, most police officers get less than 20 hours self defence training per year, and spend less than 20 hours per year on the shooting range, which is about the most I would practically expect VNN'ers to get.


I thus recommend that VNN'ers aim for at least the same amount and quality of training, from the same people, as the police get, which enables them to take down, immobilise and arrest 534 704 violent criminals, in 2011 alone.

Elite ex military are trained to kill people from a distance, using and equipped with rifles, handguns, explosives, bayonets, garottes and knives, operating in units of 12 and more, with air support minutes away, and ground extraction support usually within a distance of an hour or so, in superb physical condition, after 2 or more years training, and well-equipped. They usually attack at night, roughly 1 to 2 hours before dawn.

Is that likely to be the average VNN'er? If not, your example is once again utterly irrelevant, and meaningless.

Is the average VNN'er more likely to be unfit, slightly overweight, and at best be prepared to spend a couple evenings at most down at a nearby gym, learning some simple self defence moves, that don't require fitness, that teach them to use objects around them? I think so, so that is the one I work with.

The police defend themselves against the same types of people who are most likely to attack us, in the same environments. Elite military units do not.

Quote:
- Well, I've got to give you that one, Huey: Cops don't get shot by anyone who's not "serious." Most of us class clowns are only "kidding" when we pull a piece on Officer Porker and wind up getting a 9 millie or two in the head.
Most people who shoot at police are drunk or high, not very well trained, and not very well armed. They are shooting rapidly on the move, trembling, out of breath, often in poor light, and focusing primarily on escaping.

That does not count as a serious shooter in my book. To me a serious shooter is one who is focused and determined on shooting the target, trained, takes cover, takes aimed centre of mass shots, and continues to shoot until they hit the target.

Quote:
- You must expect to be "severely injured" in a street fight? Oh! Do tell, Bruce!
Yes, I do tell, since the training in martial arts courses and self defence courses assumes you are not severely injured, as we can see in the videos on this thread. How many martial art
courses teach you about the first aid you will need after most attacks?
A person who is attacked is far more likely to die after the attack, often days later, than during the attack. In most cases it will be from shock, bleeding, infection, blocked airways, heart attack etc. Courses that supposedly teach you to defend yourself, yet ignore the most important things that save your life or manage injuries sustained in an attack, have little value.

How many videos on this thread show the crime victim defending themselves whilst severely injured e.g. bleeding, with broken ribs, unable to see properly, unable to stand?
None. So you agree with me then presumably that they are unrealistic, and the person being attacked is likely to have to defend themselves whilst severely injured.

Why not actually attend a self defence course, and see for yourself if they train you to act assuming you are injured or uninjured?

See if they train you assuming you are standing up uninjured against a single attacker, or on the floor surrounded by several attackers.

Did your army training train you to fight as if severely injured, or as if uninjured?

Quote:
- And finally, to put to rest just one of your par-for-the-course half-baked theories on how to do just about anything, here's a little story about a martial arts instructor I knew while doing a three-year hitch in the Army; the man, a former ROK marine by the name of Yae Lee, holding a 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo:
Your story confirms what I say here and elsewhere, viz. that a few simple moves, well executed, are all that are needed in most cases.

Your very own example contradicts your claim that "The best real life experience self-defense techniques are taught by elite ex-military".

Since most people aren't going to do it, ir if they do, do very much of it, I do not advocate martial arts training, other than some basic boxing and or judo training, at best a few wing chun lessons as it focuses in the beginning on chain punching - rapid punching at close distance.

I also do not advocate military style self defence training, as it is likely to get you imprisoned after using it, as having used unreasonable force. One needs to consider the court case which usually follows having to use self defence. Its more difficult for a court to jail you for using police advocated self defence technques, taught to you by police, than for using a military style attack. Just out of interest, are you under the impression that elite military fighting techniques are widely taught to civilians, quick to learn and and easily affordable and available?

You remind me of Gollum, with the split personality, always arguing against yourself.
Your posts are fascinating, as one watches you spend the first half of your posts making claims of one sort or another, then spending the second half contradicting yourself and proving yourself wrong.

Reading your posts is like watching a boxer all alone in a ring, beating himself up.
Are you a drug addict or an alcoholic?

I hope so, as that would mean you could possibly improve. It would be a tragedy if you were that way naturally.

Why not tell us the story of your life Matthaus, and how you ended up so tragically?


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http://www.aeinstein.org/wp-content/...d-Jan-2015.pdf
https://canvasopedia.org/wp-content/...Points-web.pdf

Last edited by Hugh; July 8th, 2013 at 02:49 PM.
 
Old July 9th, 2013 #7
Matthaus Hetzenauer
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- Well, Huey, I'm not surprised that you're "giddy" (your term for hopelessly, permanently fucked up in the head I suppose) and totally incapable of absorbing "so much new information all at once", given the fact that you're more absorbed instead in posting ultra-longwinded tripe such as the above.

- "Turning to reality for a brief moment"? (What, those three hits of blotter finally beginning to wear off?) I really don't know if a VNNer, or anyone else for that matter, is more apt to be confronted by a single or multiple criminals in any given situation. What I did say, however, was that criminals operate individually as well as in groups; I didn't say it was always the lone criminal that people should be expect to be confronted by... now did I? Moreover, you needn't have bothered to post a list of the most common caliber handguns used by criminals merely because I, a White man who just happens to own a .357, used that particular piece as an example. (I suppose you'd feel better if I used the phrase "bust a cap in yo' ass" rather than "put the business end of a .357 to the back of your head".)

- And yet wrong again, Screwy Huey. Active military elite, not "ex military elite", are trained to kill at both long distance and in hand-to-hand combat; you said as much (inadvertently, to be sure) when you stated they're trained to use garrotes and knives. Police are generally trained in take-down and securement techniques, and to do so with as little injury as possible to the criminal. The military on the other hand are not only trained to disarm their attackers, but to totally fuck them up after having done so. Me? I'd prefer the training of the latter over the former, thank you very much. And since in the US it's totally legal to defend yourself to the death, I think most here would side with me on that one... don't you?

- And finally: no, I'm not an alcoholic, nor a drug addict, nor even a boxer "beating himself up." I'm a bullshit-detector who likes nothing more than mopping the canvas of the squared circle with glass-jawed Joe Palookas who affect to be the ultimate authority on everything under the sun. And when all's said and done this is what irks me about you most of all; your pontificating on virtually any discussion in which you choose to bless the masses with your popish presence. So futue te ipsum, you pompous ass (that's "go fuck yourself" in Latin).
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Last edited by Matthaus Hetzenauer; July 9th, 2013 at 01:09 PM.
 
Old July 10th, 2013 #8
Matthaus Hetzenauer
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Just one more thing...

Truth be told, Huey, your looney tunes lectures projecting yourself as an expert on every subject imaginable bore the living shit out of me. It seems as though, rarely offering mere comment on what others have to say, you're compelled to preach, and preach with the sole intention of impressing; impressing in the sense of the term of creating a favorable opinion of yourself, rather than impressing to persuade to your side of the argument.

Take the time (along with a half a bottle of NoDoz) to reevaluate your sleep-inducing posts in this thread, the first especially, and then tell me that you don't attempt to come off as the ultimate authority on defending yourself against the criminal. And then by what credentials do you assume this authority to dictate to the misguided masses this hare-brained hodgepodge of yours as the be-all and end-all on the topic of discussion? Are you an ex-cop? Are you ex-military? Have you ever taught self defense courses? Are you adept in the use of firearms? Have you first-hand experience with street punks sticking a gun in your face and demanding your wallet, watch and cell phone? I myself can honestly answer "yes" to three of the five; my guess is you couldn't answer in the affirmative to a single one. And if I don't put on airs of being oh-so-knowledgable about disarming/disabling an attacker, where do you, of all people, get off doing so? It would appear you have "armchair authority" only, with absolutely no real life experience at all. And that says it all, doesn't it, No-Clue-Hugh?

You can google and read all there is to know about carpentry and plumbing, auto mechanics and air-conditiong, but you're not a tradesman until you've spent time in the field putting into practice what you think you've learned behind a desk and a computer.

Now seeing as how we seem to be in the recycle/rehash stage of argument, and knowing that you must have the last word, I'll bid you adios and leave the ball in your court. But rest assured, we will cross paths again.

ciao, chump
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Old July 10th, 2013 #9
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I notice that with all your criticisms about what I have said, you have avoided actually discussing the topic.
Don't be shy.

Why not explain what VNN'ers should do in these situations?

Your consistently aggressive argumentativeness, erratic writing style, disjointed thoughts and constant contradictions of yourself are often encountered in recovering heavy drinkers/drug users, thus my question about your use of alcohol/drugs.

I have gone into this in depth as well as put up research to support what I say because this is a serious topic, on a situation VNN'ers may well encounter, and on which people's lives may depend.

VNN'ers have more to fear from the state, secret police, intelligence agencies etc than from criminals. Criminals as a group kill thousands, mostly of their own kind. States kill millions, mostly innocent people, not to mention their torture apparatus, prisons etc.

You've put up no research, admitted you have done none, and not shared anything on the topic of the thread. If you were in the army, then why are you not discussing what you learned there? I am, and what I learned is that at that short distance you are dead meat, so have to act before they get that close.

What military elites do is irrelevant, as we are not military elites.
What matters is what the average VNN'er can do, in real life, now, where they are, with what they have. That is my focus.

Anyone who wants to know about what weapons and defences are effective and what are not, can check what I say by simply spending a Saturday night in a hospital emergency room.

I note you avoid the legal and real life implications of your advice. Using military tactics/weapons on criminals will quite likely get you sued, arrested, locked up after the court case which follows, using police tactics/weapons will most likely not get you sued, arrested/locked up.

Spend a couple days in court listening to trials involving self defence, and see how the state reacts when Whites defend themselves against blacks. Thus my advice on how to reduce the chances of being imprisoned and gangbanged, as well as of how to reduce/avoid oneself or their family dying from infection, shock, bleeding etc if attacked/raped etc. That you find this absurd does not concern me.

So with regards to the topic of the thread, what do you have to contribute on the topic?

If you have real life experience, then it's a pity you've decided not to share it. Why not do so?

I am at the half century mark, about twice the age of many VNN'ers, so yes, I do preach, so that people don't waste time and lives on ineffective struggle activities. I write a great deal about struggle against the state, because I was part of the state, and civilians struggled against us. I speak about what worked against us, and what didn't, in real life.

Violence didn't work against us, we became addicted to the rush, and grew to love it when civilians turned violent against us, because then we no longer had to restrain ourselves, as we had to restrain ourselves when they used non-violent struggle methods.

As far as my own life experience goes, I come from a military/police family, spent around 3 decades living in Rhodesia and South West Africa which were at war for 15 years and 25 years respectively, mostly in army bases and on farms during that time.
I've more than 3 years full time involvement in the Rhodesian and South West African military along the SWA/Angolan and Rhodesian borders, and just less than a decade part time as an army medic in the reserves, often assisting police and army at riots etc. down in South Africa too.

Rhodesia, South West Africa and South Africa were brought down by political action, loss of taxbases, strikes, sanctions, boycotts etc by the US and Europe, not violence, which is why I advocate non-violent struggle methods like those. I warn against violent means of struggle, because I know they don't work.

Rhodesia and South Africa seceded, and were ultra nationalist states.Nationalism, secession, struggle, politics are topics at the very core of VNN, which is why I am here, since I have lived through them.

Here you can read about how the communists organised against us in real life, how to wage violent and nonviolent struggle, form cells, train, communicate, organise protests, riots, arm etc and below you can see it in action.

http://www.csvr.org.za/index.php/pub...nce-units.html


This is the type of experience I have had with regards to weapons/attacks etc often for weeks at a time.

From a movie about the time, which shows the distance we worked at and general operational environment pretty well.



Some scenes from real life


Here you can see a necklacing,


Video is very sanitised of course, the stench, fear, confusion, pain, exhaustion are missing, Often more dangerous than what they used against us, was the air itself, filled with dust from garbage covered dirt streets, endless mud, they burned tyres and plastic so we could hardly breathe from the toxic fumes, as well as dustbins and old cars, wood etc billowing smoke over us.
We feared smoke and fire more than their weapons, and burn wounds are far more dangerous than those inflicted by most weapons.

Usually behind the front rows they had cells of mostly communist cadres armed with axes, spears, machetes, and threw barrages of fist sized stones, bottles, cans, sticks, pipes, bricks, sometimes molotovs, almost always plastic bags filled with urine and faeces etc spattering over us, and we would often spend a week or more at it. We constantly disarmed and arrested people, usually by beating them to a pulp, as that's what's required when adult males are high on rage, drink and drugs. It's also why I comment as I do on what works best with regard to firearms, rounds etc elsewhere.

During unrest i.e. riots we would patrol these townships day and night, often pursue in amongst the shacks, not to mention railway stations, slums etc. Based upon what I have seen and done, I have formed my opinions on fighting/weapons/injuries, the military, police, civilians battling the state i.e. us, what was done to us that we most feared etc

I've also close to 2 decades involvement in ngo's working closely in a civilian capacity with police etc on crime prevention, substance abuse etc, as well as intense involvement in crime prevention in my political activities.

I've worked in the mining industry as an auditor and risk analyst for decades, and travelled to many mines in third world countries, where unrest, riots, tribal war etc are endemic.

That you find my posts boring etc does not concern me in the least. You spend your time here arguing with just about everybody on just about everything.

Why not become a contributor, instead of a critic?
Critics are a dime a dozen.
__________________
Secede. Control taxbases/municipalities. Use boycotts, divestment, sanctions, strikes.
http://www.aeinstein.org/wp-content/...d-Jan-2015.pdf
https://canvasopedia.org/wp-content/...Points-web.pdf
 
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