#1 Ukraine War thread (and Russia and Putin)

[Dawn Cannon]

Andrei Purgin, first deputy prime minister of the DPR, said the first militia units had reached the crash site and found many children dead.

There were reports saying that the plane was shot down by the eastern Ukrainian militants, which was immediately denied by the leadership of the DPR (Donetsk People's Republic).

"The plane was shot down by the Ukrainian side. We simply do not have such air defense systems, our MANPADs have a firing range of only 3,000 to 4,000 meters, while passenger jets fly at a much higher altitude," Interfax quoted DPR officials as saying.

The militants said they did not rule out that the plane could have been brought down by Ukrainian servicemen.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/wo..._126766831.htm

[edda]

Putin's jet (guess he was coming from his Latin American tour) was flying over about half an hour later...Some speculation they were targeting him.

President Putin's plane might have been the target for Ukrainian missile - sources

“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

[Hugo Böse]

What´s the odds of the same airline losing two large airliners in such a close timeframe, both the same model, Boeing 777, and both under extraordinary circumstances? A conspiracy theorist would ask if this was the same plane that disappeared in March. Twilight Zone shit, itz.

[Dawn Cannon]

Yet another Malaysia Boeing 777 is lost under extraordinary
circumstances this year.

At no juncture during the Ukrainian crisis could the downing of Malaysian Boeing 777 flight MH17 have been more convenient for NATO and its proxy regime in Kiev. Kiev's forces were being picked apart in eastern Ukraine with several units encircled and destroyed. In the west of the country, dissent was growing by Ukrainians unwilling to march off to fight in the east. NATO's attempts to bait Russia into moving into Ukrainian territory and shift global opinion against Moscow had repeatedly failed.

The final card to be played by the US was another round of sanctions that almost immediately was ridiculed as ineffective and impotent. Even US corporate-financier interests condemned the latest round of sanctions claiming they were "unilateral" in nature and thus limited US enterprise from interacting with Russia while leaving European competitors free to move into the void. An effective US policy of confronting, containing, and undermining Russia would require multilateral sanctions with almost universal support - but the impetus for such sweeping sanctions did not exist - until now.


The US FAA Declared Ukrainian Airspace Off-Limits 3 Months Ago

Indeed, the stars have aligned for NATO. While the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) declared Ukrainian airspace off limits to all aircraft under its jurisdiction, it appears other airlines continued flying over what has been a warzone for months. The Atlantic in a report titled, "The FAA's Notice Prohibiting Airline Flights Over Ukraine," stated clearly that:

Did aviation authorities know that this was a dangerous area?
Yes, they most certainly did. Nearly three months ago, on the "Special Rules" section of its site, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration put out an order prohibiting American pilots, airlines, charter carriers, and everyone else over whom the FAA has direct jurisdiction, from flying over parts of Ukraine.


Fighters Use Man-Portable Air Defense Systems That Can't Reach 33,000 Feet


Igla man-portable air defense missiles.

For months fighters in eastern Ukraine have been downing Ukrainian military helicopters, warplanes, and even a military transport aircraft - all using various forms of man-portable anti-air missiles - all of which are incapable of downing the Malaysian 777 which was flying at approximately 33,000 feet - well above the effective range of man-portable air defense systems.

The system cited as responsible for the downing of flight MH17, was the sophisticated Buk radar guided, tracked-vehicle mounted, anti-aircraft missile system. The New York Daily News reported in an article titled, "Malaysia Airlines plane feared shot down in Ukraine near Russian border," that:

Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine's Interior Minister, said on Facebook that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher, reported Interfax, a Ukranian news agency.

It is not clear if fighters in eastern Ukraine obtained any Buk systems - and if they did, it is unclear whether they had the ability to maintain and operate them. If they did have any Buk systems, they would be few. Kiev claims that the systems were passed along by Russia - apparently denying that any of their own systems had gone missing. Unfortunately, even if Russia was arming fighters in eastern Ukraine, it would not be with Buk systems that would be traced directly back to Moscow during their first use regardless of what they fired at.


Cui Bono?

Russia's strongest card thus far has been its restraint and NATO's inability to implicate it in the chaos NATO itself started by backing armed Neo-Nazis during the "Euromaidan" of late 2013-early 2014. Russia surely would not throw that card away to pass along weapon systems to fighters that were already successfully downing Ukrainian military aircraft with man-portable missiles.

Russia and the fighters operating in eastern Ukraine have nothing to gain by downing a civilian airliner, but absolutely everything to lose - thus pointing the finger in another direction - that of NATO and their proxy regime in Kiev. That the downed aircraft is yet another Malaysian Boeing 777 - the second one this year to be lost under extraordinary circumstances - has serendipitously gained maximum attention for propagandists across the West. They have the world's full and undivided attention with which to pin the blame on Russia and anti-Kiev fighters in eastern Ukraine.

The impetus necessary to unite Europe and other Western allies behind NATO and the US for a more direct intervention in Ukraine where the West is currently floundering is now consuming headlines around the world. If the downing of MH17 was not a case of tragic misidentification, then answering the first question of any investigation, cui bono - or to whose benefit - is answered resoundingly with, "NATO."

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/...aine.html#more

[Hugo Böse]

Originally Posted by Dawn Cannon

The impetus necessary to unite Europe and other Western allies behind NATO and the US for a more direct intervention in Ukraine where the West is currently floundering is now consuming headlines around the world. If the downing of MH17 was not a case of tragic misidentification, then answering the first question of any investigation, cui bono - or to whose benefit - is answered resoundingly with, "NATO."

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/...aine.html#more

Surely the Russians were monitoring the airspace over that part of the Ukraine, it shouldn't be too difficult to work out where that missile came from.

[procopius]

Why did Keiv bring their anti-air missile systems to the south east if the rebels do not have any air-based vehicles (no jets, bombers or copters)? That was a rhetorical question of course.

There is no reason to have anti-air missile systems in the south east to fight the rebels. In fact it would potentially hurt the Kiev military more if the rebels captured them and used their own missiles against them. So why bring a missile system to the south east to give the rebels an opportunity to capture them possibly use them against your air force. Bringing them there can only work against you.

There are rumors now that the rebels did capture some of Kiev's anti-air systems. But why did Kiev bring them there? They are useless to fighting land-based rebels. And if that airliner was shot down by a missile from one of those systems, as the press is saying, and also saying it was the rebels who did it. That means that the rebels captured it from Kiev most likely, right? They captured a missile system that had no use for the government's army in being there.

Anyway something to think about in the next few days as western MSM blames the rebels, and Russia/Putin by implication. Just ask yourself why would Kiev bring s-300 missiles systems there in the first place.

[Martel]

Originally Posted by Hugo Böse

Surely the Russians were monitoring the airspace over that part of the Ukraine, it shouldn't be too difficult to work out where that missile came from.

I been listening to this all day on the radio, there is one big problem with the facts.

" reality is whatever we say it is " David Frum, NRO, Head NeoCon Kike, Bush Speech writer , Kagan's tag team partner aka Nuland

May not be exact quote but a simple quote to that effect exists.

Even Putin is weary of their control of minds, they have him walking on egg shells
as they mass murder Russians and destroy Ukraine.

[Martel]

Originally Posted by procopius

Why did Keiv bring their anti-air missile systems to the south east if the rebels do not have any air-based vehicles (no jets, bombers or copters)? That was a rhetorical question of course.

There is no reason to have anti-air missile systems in the south east to fight the rebels. In fact it would potentially hurt the Kiev military more if the rebels captured them and used their own missiles against them. So why bring a missile system to the south east to give the rebels an opportunity to capture them possibly use them against your air force. Bringing them there can only work against you.

There are rumors now that the rebels did capture some of Kiev's anti-air systems. But why did Kiev bring them there? They are useless to fighting land-based rebels. And if that airliner was shot down by a missile from one of those systems, as the press is saying, and also saying it was the rebels who did it. That means that the rebels captured it from Kiev most likely, right? They captured a missile system that had no use for the government's army in being there.

Anyway something to think about in the next few days as western MSM blames the rebels, and Russia/Putin by implication. Just ask yourself why would Kiev bring s-300 missiles systems there in the first place.

The Rebels have a Strela 10 I think it is called, an unsophisticated type of SAM.
They just captured it and showed it off. The Rebels have had success against low
flying aircraft and helicopters with some Manpads and AAA.

No way the Rebels did this, the Rebels take prisoners and they let Ukrainian
forces leave bases without weapons and they let them flee to Russia for
safety. The Russians in Russia care for Ukrainian wounded even though Russia is
getting attacked deliberately by shells and shootings. The Russians are the good
people here.

Strelkov is running a crew of middle aged men with pot bellies that are fighting for their homes, indigenous, Russian land.

The guy is a Christian, not a Bolshevik, flying Christian standards.

Strelkov is a military genius tactician leader and he has great fighters.

They were winning the battles and these last few days was a major
turning point. So it is very possible some order went forward, Kiev is
committing war crimes, they need to cover them up, not lose power.

As I posted my last couple of posts I did not mention the Serbs and Racak,
I was expecting something along these lines, some sort of false flag frame up,
death squads and mass graves, Nato told all these lies to bomb the Serbs,
and the best they did is murder civilians and the country economically later.

Ukraine has a lot of similarities and parallels to Yugoslavia.

Racak was an OSCE frameup of the Serbs, bombings right after that.

Notice the Rebels capture OSCE and do not let them run amok, they
are all military officers doing recon.

The playbook is not original.

NeoCon KIKES did 9/11, anything is possible.

[T.Garrett]

If this Boeing was downed by a SAM (and that still hasn't been shown to be the case beyond doubt yet) ...then it was likely Washington's finger that pulled the trigger no matter who had 'possession' of the weapon.

Russia and the rebels in Eastern Ukraine have absolutely nothing to gain by shooting down an airliner full of civilians ...including about 80 children ...heading from western Europe into Russian airspace. Indeed just before the aircraft crossed the Russian border.

Interesting aside the reports of Putin's flight being in the same airspace about 30 minutes earlier ...ooops hahahaha.

[Serbian]

Originally Posted by T.Garrett

If this Boeing was downed by a SAM (and that still hasn't been shown to be the case beyond doubt yet) ...then it was likely Washington's finger that pulled the trigger no matter who had 'possession' of the weapon.

Russia and the rebels in Eastern Ukraine have absolutely nothing to gain by shooting down an airliner full of civilians ...including about 80 children ...heading from western Europe into Russian airspace. Indeed just before the aircraft crossed the Russian border.

Interesting aside the reports of Putin's flight being in the same airspace about 30 minutes earlier ...ooops hahahaha.

Firstly why would a civilian plane fly over a known war zone? Why did the plane deviate from its planned route? Who sent them on this route and why when the danger was known?

The flight tracking website FlightRadar24.com shows an aborted flight path for Flight MH17 that ends east of Donetsk, Ukraine, near the border with Russia. (flightradar24.com

Now even if the rebels had the capability there would be no reason for them to down a civilian airliner as it would turn the whole world even more against them, however even if they did do it , which again is very unlikely, the responsibility still falls on the regime in Kiev for turning that whole area into a killing zone and not being interested in maintaining a ceasefire.

Kiev's planes have been bombing civilians and transporting troops/weapons /ammunition to that region so it would only be normal for the resistance to view anything in the sky above them as hostile.

My personal opinion is that this incidednt was a classic false flag operation carried out by the CIA/Mossad and it's puppets in Ukraine, coming at just the right time. (US being somewhat isolated in its calls for massive new tougher sanctions on Moscow, plus Israel's massacre in Gaza getting unwanted attention). Well this now changes everything and all in the so called 'international community' should now be on board with the American position of further isolating and pressuring Russia, in addition to ignoring Israel's increase in brutality aginst the Palis.

This (most probabale) false flag incidednt was so fucking predictable especially after one has lived through Markale (Bosnia) and Racak (Kosovo), false flags which were used as a cause which started the NATO bombing campaigns.

BTW it should also be noted that the Ukrainian authorities had imposed a no-fly zone over the area in question so they had full control of the skies. That they made the flight take this route raises serious questions.

It's also a fact that the Ukrainian army and its CIA/Mossad friends have surface to air missiles in the area.

Near Donetsk from July 5th

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2eGNPJlkMo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2eGNPJlkMo

[Serbian]

Ukrainians seem to have a history of shooting down passenger planes

Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 crashed over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001, en route from Tel Aviv, Israel to Novosibirsk, Russia. The plane, a Soviet-made Tupolev Tu-154, carried an estimated 66 passengers and 12 crew members. Most of the passengers were Israelis visiting relatives in Russia. No one on board survived. The crash site is some 190 km west-southwest of the Black Sea resort of Sochi and 140 km north of the Turkish coastal town of Fatsa and 350 km east-southeast of Feodosiya, Ukraine. Ukraine admitted that the disaster was probably caused by an errant missile fired by its armed forces

Wikipedia (Links)

Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

[Serbian]

Now the conflict is officially internationalized, which is exactly what ZOG wanted all along.

The zionist 'western' media machine and puppet political prostitutes are foaming at the mouth, going into a frenzy demanding Russian blood.

Some so called nationalists will also fall victim to this hysteria and will stand with their mortal enemy the US government.

This is just the beginning. You have been warned.

[zoomcopter]

Originally Posted by edda

Putin's jet (guess he was coming from his Latin American tour) was flying over about half an hour later...Some speculation they were targeting him.

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

Amazing, what are the odds of that occuring?

[Dan Hadaway]

Originally Posted by Serbian

Firstly why would a civilian plane fly over a known war zone? Why did the plane deviate from its planned root? Who sent them on this route and why when the danger was known?

That's exactly what I was thinking. Don't they have rules/laws against flying civilian planes over warzones? Maybe they don't. It's possible. I don't know. It just sounds so obvious that they would. This is straight out of the RMS Lusitania playbook.

Another thing is that, they quoted this Igor Strelkov guy wrong. He was supposedly saying stuff about warning someone not to fly. Not only did they get the quote wrong the dailymail didn't even get their source right. They claimed it was twitter, but in fact it was a Russian social network. But even the source was that of the Ukrainian Crisis Media Center which given that one Victoria Nuland likes to corroborate with, makes it a highly suspect source. I tried to point this out over at dailymail, but obviously they don't like people calling them out on their bullshit.

Even some retard on the internet can find facts that disprove the media's lies. It's insane.

[ohgolly]

Originally Posted by Dan Hadaway

This is straight out of the RMS Lusitania playbook.

Ft. Sumter
Havana
Pearl Harbor
Tonkin
Panama
Serbia
Afghanistan
Iraq

To name a few.

There's reason to cheer up though. The internet is becoming the most used news media. The dragons are in danger.

[Ray Allan]

Is it possible MH17 was downed by an air-to-air missile from a fighter jet in a similar fashion to Korean Airlines Flight 007? The Ukrainian Air Force operates MiGs and Sukhois armed with these weapons, so I'd say it's a possibility being we don't have any detailed information as yet. It would have to be a Ukrainian aircraft since Russia would have absolutely nothing to gain by doing it. Whoever or whatever was responsible, SAM or AAM attack, both Russia and NATO have detailed electronic surveillance and radar tracking of this airspace, so both parties already know the truth even if we don't.

[Martel]

The media in Ukraine is controlled by Kolomoyski. He owns the country.

Russian Bloggers, Russian Facebook, they are on top of things.

For what it is worth.

Report of Odessa TV, radical change in coverage overnight.

https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUk...21660748057272

https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUkraine

As reported by a local from Odessa, all of a sudden, all Odessa channels radically changed the tune as of yesterday, dropping the previous blanket junta's lies and presenting a harsh criticism of the junta instead:

1. "The anti-terrorist operation" is a slaughter of one's own population.

2. Peace talks must start immediately.

3. For the first times, reports show the truth about the junta's bombing of civilians in Lugansk and Donetsk together with denunciations of Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk presented on the camera and admissions that mercenaries are employed by the Kiev regime.

4. Europe is now said to be moving away from its support of the Kiev regime.

5. Poroshenko is called an idiot for signing the EU Association Agreement, which requires vast "restitution" (i.e. reparations) to foreigners in Western Ukraine.

6. The US is pushing Ukraine into disaster in order to take over the European markets.

7. Odessa TV channels stopped calling Donbass people "separatists" at a time when, in Kiev, journalists are persecuted and even killed for these things.

8. The regime controls neither the country nor the army and they are are wasting money on useless war, while the country is falling into abyss.

The local female concludes saying: "I am in complete shock, and this is now going on all the Odessa channels. They demand federalization and immediate negotiations. What happened? Did Kolomeysky run away? Did people suddenly raise their heads?"

I think the answer is the scale of the military disaster for the junta in the south of Lugansk and Donetsk.

[ohgolly]

Martel, I wish I could buy you a drink.

[procopius]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/...99.html?hp=l11

"I resigned from RT today. I have huge respect for many in the team, but I'm for the truth," Firth wrote on her Twitter account. Firth later told the Press Gazette that the Russian channel's biased coverage of the crash was "the straw that broke the camel’s back for me."

While most members of the international community, including the United States, believe that the plane was likely brought down by pro-Russian separatists, RT has instead suggested the fault lies with the Ukrainian government.

Indeed, this seems to be mode of operation to discredit Russian news sources, with these weak female reporters who decide "facts" by popularity (social pressure).

I will not state that I know what happened. I do know that the US wants to turn the "international community" against the Ukrainian Rebels at all costs, and it would not surprise me if they shot down a civilian airliner to blame on the Russians. The US government has proven they couldn't care less about innocent people.

It's going to be interesting to see Russia's response in next few days.

Does Russia have Germany on their side or not?

[Serbian]

Originally Posted by Martel

The media in Ukraine is controlled by Kolomoyski. He owns the country.

Russian Bloggers, Russian Facebook, they are on top of things.

For what it is worth.

Report of Odessa TV, radical change in coverage overnight.

https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUk...21660748057272

https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUkraine

As reported by a local from Odessa, all of a sudden, all Odessa channels radically changed the tune as of yesterday, dropping the previous blanket junta's lies and presenting a harsh criticism of the junta instead:

1. "The anti-terrorist operation" is a slaughter of one's own population.

2. Peace talks must start immediately.

3. For the first times, reports show the truth about the junta's bombing of civilians in Lugansk and Donetsk together with denunciations of Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk presented on the camera and admissions that mercenaries are employed by the Kiev regime.

4. Europe is now said to be moving away from its support of the Kiev regime.

5. Poroshenko is called an idiot for signing the EU Association Agreement, which requires vast "restitution" (i.e. reparations) to foreigners in Western Ukraine.

6. The US is pushing Ukraine into disaster in order to take over the European markets.

7. Odessa TV channels stopped calling Donbass people "separatists" at a time when, in Kiev, journalists are persecuted and even killed for these things.

8. The regime controls neither the country nor the army and they are are wasting money on useless war, while the country is falling into abyss.

The local female concludes saying: "I am in complete shock, and this is now going on all the Odessa channels. They demand federalization and immediate negotiations. What happened? Did Kolomeysky run away? Did people suddenly raise their heads?"

I think the answer is the scale of the military disaster for the junta in the south of Lugansk and Donetsk.

This is some wishful thinking and doesn't quite square up with what is actually happening on the ground at the moment.

Jew Kolomoysky did not run away, he is still there, funding conducting and coordianting even as he jets around Europe for meetings.

Odessa was pacified with the mass murder in the trade union building and has not been heard of since. People there live in fear and don't dare speak up against what the regime is doing. It is an extemely successful textbook repression, heavily laced with constant daily bombardment with media lies.

Latest news from Lugansk is also not good. The Kiev forces have increased the shelling and have the area blocked. 90% of it is without electricity and just in the last 24 hours there have been around 20 killed and over 60 wounded in the city. The IMF forces have also heavily bombed the major oil refinery owned by the Russian oil company Rosneft which was just recently sanctioned by the US government.

There is no 'military disaster' for the junta as time resources and world public opinion is all on their side, especially with recent events solidifying the world against the resistance to such an extent that there are already calls coming for more western intervention, this time overt.

If this were a case of the resistance only fighting Kiev, in other words a localized conflict they would have had a chance, even without Russian support, (if Kiev was as isolated as they are they would have been able to take the whole country, even without Russian help, because momentum and great PR brings more success on the battlefield as more and more of the masses just join you) but it is not the case. These people are basically fighting a fight which unfortunately has been doomed right from the start, as it is a fight against the so called international community (mafia) led by the US, and this is simply a fight that they just can't win (without a big superpower openly siding with them), no matter how much we wish they could.

We have to be realistic. Sure early on it may have looked more promising as the option of Moscow's intervention at least seemed to be on the table. Then due to all the pressure/vested interests, previously mentioned in this thread, it was taken off the table never to appear again.

The question now remains is just how long will they be able to last. I am hoping for a nightmare winter as Europe needs to freeze a little, it will be for their own good and may just get them to think a little more rationaly and begin looking out for their own interests instead of taking direct orders from Washington, orders which are against their own interests on every level.