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Old May 9th, 2019 #1
ColdFire
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Default Dialects



Dialects are a part of languages / countries . .

Definition of a dialect : A language / tongue which dissents from the officially standardised language of a region / script-language. .

Let's look at Germany . . dialects are very many here. .

In the case of Germany it is because the German people are not a single people . . We have Swabians , Frisians , Saxons etc . .

For a long time there even wasn't any 'German standard language' . .
Little breakdown on history . .

Germany came to pass when after the great peoples' migration in Europe in ancient times the Franks under Charlemagne united Germanic tribes in the middle of Europe under their leadership . . .

There were duchies , archduchies etc of different peoples . .

They weren't really one. . .

The first person who standardised German was the Protestant reformer Martin Luther ( he translated the Bible into what became known as 'high-German' ( Hochdeutsch ) ) . .

The first ones to adopt 'Luther's German' in old times was the bourgeoisie of Northern Germany . .

Today the 'best German' , it is said , is spoken in the Hannover region in Lower Saxony . .


. . in time more or less the whole Northern German area adopted 'Luther's German' . .

They abandoned their original dialect , 'Plattdeutsch',or the speakers of it became a minorty ( the language is still alive until today though ) . .

'Plattdeutsch' is based on the ancient Saxon tongue . . The Saxons were the tribe which settled in Northern Germany ( in contrast to the people today known as 'the Saxons' , living in the Dresden / Leipzig area ) . .

Apart from that , there are other dialect areas in Germany.

Swabian is spoken in the Stuttgart region ( Southern Germany ) for example . . It is related to 'Swiss-German' . . The ancient Swabians settled in that area . .

Bavarian-based dialects are spoken in the federal state of Bavaria itself as well as in parts of Austria . . .

The Western-German dialects include Mosel-franconian and the Rhineland-dialect . . They are even related to Dutch ( the bordering area ) . . These 'ripuarian' ( 'coastal' ) German dialects are said to be based on Frisian ( the ancient Germanic tribe which settled the coast in ancient times ) . .

The Middle-German dialects include the dialects spoken in Upper Saxony and Thuringia.

The city of Berlin is also known for its own dialect . .

- - -

I know in other European places like France it is known that Paris for example "speaks the best French" . . .

Often "the best version of the respective language" is spoken in the respective capitals . . such is the case in France.
But . . believe me . . it isn't the case for Germany

Au contraire , the Berlin-dialect is quite far from standard-German . .

Example . . The phrase "Das will ich kaufen" ("I want to buy that") in the Berlin-dialect would sound "Det will ick koofen".

Berlin was chosen as the German capital once because it was the main city of Prussia ( Germany was united under Prussia ) , not the because the best German is spoken there

- - -

Anyway . .

Concerning other Caucasian countries. .

I know Britain also has quite a vivid dialect / tongue landscape with 'Oxford English' being regarded as the best British english.

Same with the USA . . different regions , different influences in the language . .

Concerning the English language in general . . I know that there are different varieties of English , like for example that 'Pidgin'-english spoken by Negroes especially in the Caribbean . .

Jamaican 'Patois' . .




( based on trying to imitate the 'simplified English' the European colonial overseers spoke with the black slaves . .)

- - - -

In closing a song sung in the ancient dialect of my area ( Northern Germany ) . .



Last edited by ColdFire; May 9th, 2019 at 01:39 PM.
 
Old May 9th, 2019 #2
Ray Allan
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Well ColdFire, the small amount of German I know is all 'hochdeutsch' apparently the same as spoken in your area of northern Germany (Bremen/Hannover), so I would have trouble understanding a speaker from Bavaria or Austria or even Berlin. Depending on what English pronunciation you learned (I'm assuming 'Oxford' English?), it would probably be difficult for you to understand American southern accents. Most of my family came from the South and Texas, but I was born and grew up in the West, so I don't speak in a Southern accent, but the flatter, more monotoned 'Western' accent.
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Old May 9th, 2019 #3
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Originally Posted by Ray Allan View Post
Well ColdFire, the small amount of German I know is all 'hochdeutsch' . .
Yeah . . I figured . . Standard German is already a difficult language to learn for non-native speakers . . To even learn / understand German dialects is a more difficult task . .

Quote:
. . apparently the same as spoken in your area of northern Germany (Bremen/Hannover) . .
Yep . . us northern Germans are often commended for our almost 'accent-free Hochdeutsch' . .

My area brings that with itself . .

Whereas many people in Germany even until this day have problems talking accent-free Hochdeutsch.

But . . the ancient dialect of our area is also not forgotten even to the point that for children courses in 'Plattdeutsch' are offered to keep 'the old tongue of Northern Germany alive' . .

Quote:
. . so I would have trouble understanding a speaker from Bavaria or Austria or even Berlin.
. . even I would sometimes have . .

Bavarian is a very strong dialect and many Austrian dialects are based on Bavarian ( largely the same tribe of people ) . .

As for the Berlin dialect , Berlin being located on the Northern German plain too , it did keep its dialect nevertheless . . . The Berlin-dialect is based on Plattdeutsch with Hochdeutsch-elements thrown in . .
Quote:
Depending on what English pronunciation you learned (I'm assuming 'Oxford' English?)
I speak English fluently . . I'm also able to figure out whether someone is from the UK or the USA by hearing their accents . .

I myself , when switching from German to English , speak a 'neutral' English , some might call that an 'English without any regional accent' , some would call it 'how a German tries to talk English' . .

I can imitate a British accent if I want to as well as American but I'm 'neutral'

Quote:
. . it would probably be difficult for you to understand American southern accents.
If they talk fastly maybe yes . .

Though ,I watch many films in English language in the 'original' , i. e. not dubbed into German , and came across movies in 'British slang' as well as movies set in the American south with people talking typically . . I'm a bit trained on that field.

Quote:
Most of my family came from the South and Texas, but I was born and grew up in the West, so I don't speak in a Southern accent, but the flatter, more monotoned 'Western' accent.
Yes , regional changes can often lead to that . .
 
Old May 9th, 2019 #4
Stewart Meadows
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.
I've always been fascinated by the fact that Italy has such a huge amount of languages, dialects and subdialects. The following linguistic map will give you an idea of what I'm talking about:


 
Old May 9th, 2019 #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart Meadows View Post
.
I've always been fascinated by the fact that Italy has such a huge amount of languages, dialects and subdialects. The following linguistic map will give you an idea of what I'm talking about:


Yep . . always found that fascinating too.

The area of the Italian peninsula where the city of Rome is located was called the 'Latinum' since old times.

That's why the language "coming from that area" was / is called 'Latin'.

Today Italian as it is written ( i. e. standard-Italian) is the language closest to ancient Latin.
 
Old May 9th, 2019 #6
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I heard that in 'the Spanish-speaking world' there are also differences between for example Spain , Mexico , Chile et al . .

Spanish is the second most distributed language on Earth next to English . .

No wonder there are differences . .

Even in Spain itself . . As far as I know Castilian is the 'purest' Spanish . .

Some even go so far as to claim that the 'Spanish' in Mexico for example is merely 'a Spanish slang' . .

Same differences might probably exist for Portugal and Brazil . . .
 
Old May 9th, 2019 #7
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Originally Posted by ColdFire View Post
Today Italian as it is written ( i. e. standard-Italian) is the language closest to ancient Latin.
Yes, that's what a lot of people say, and I can certainly see why, but according to many linguists there's a Romance language that's even closer to Latin - Sardinian:

Quote:
Sardinian or Sard (sardu/sadru [ˈsaɾdu/'sadru], limba sarda [ˈlimba ˈzaɾda] or lģngua sarda [ˈliŋɡu.a ˈzaɾda]) is the primary indigenous Romance language spoken by the Sardinians on most of the island of Sardinia. Many Romance linguists consider it the closest genealogical descendant to Latin.[5][6] However, it also incorporates a Pre-Latin (mostly Paleo-Sardinian and, to a much lesser degree, Punic) substratum,[7] as well as a Byzantine Greek, Catalan, Spanish and Italian superstratum due to the political membership of the island, which became a Byzantine possession followed by a significant period of self-rule, fell into the Iberian sphere of influence in the late Middle Ages, and eventually into the Italian one in the 18th century.
(…)
Sardinian is considered the most conservative Romance language,[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language
 
Old May 11th, 2019 #8
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Post Euro or semite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart Meadows View Post
Yes, that's what a lot of people say, and I can certainly see why, but according to many linguists there's a Romance language that's even closer to Latin - Sardinian:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language
Semitic speaking Phoenicians, also known as the 'sea people' from ancient Lebanon and Carthaginians who colonized Sardinia in ancient times left more than just their DNA in the local population ...they left substantial imprint on the local language.

I would still say Italian (mix of Germanic and Latin) would be closer to the ancient Latin (Indo/Euro) than Sardinian (Indo/Euro and Semitic) is just by listening to both spoken by natives. Latin is purely a European language while Sardinian has been modified considerably by Semitic foreigners who settled there to trade.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0110141309.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_language

Just my opinion.
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Old May 11th, 2019 #9
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I view Italian ( written Italian that is ) as direct descendant of Latin . .

Few things have changed . .

The ending 'us' has been changed to 'o' , as in 'Claudius' - > 'Claudio' and some other things . .

One of the advantages of Italian is that it is the preferred language for singing since every Italian word ( at least in written Italian) ends with a vocal ( a , e , i , o , u . . )

That's why Italian words are good for singing since words ending with a vocal at the end can be 'stretched' when singing . . 'Navi per mariiii. .' for example . .
 
Old May 11th, 2019 #10
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Originally Posted by ColdFire View Post
[IMG]

Same with the USA . . different regions , different influences in the language . .

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Old May 11th, 2019 #11
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Originally Posted by Stewart Meadows View Post
Yes, that's what a lot of people say, and I can certainly see why, but according to many linguists there's a Romance language that's even closer to Latin - Sardinian:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language
Here's an especially interesting excerpt from the above Wikipedia article:

Quote:
Sardinian is considered the most conservative Romance language,[20] and its substratum (Paleo-Sardinian or Nuragic) has also been researched. A 1949 study by Italian-American linguist Mario Pei, analyzing the degree of difference from a language's parent (Latin, in the case of Romance languages) by comparing phonology, inflection, syntax, vocabulary, and intonation, indicated the following percentages (the higher the percentage, the greater the distance from Latin):[21] Sardinian 8%, Italian 12%, Spanish 20%, Romanian 23.5%, Occitan 25%, Portuguese 31%, and French 44%. For example, Latin "Pone mihi tres panes in bertula" (put three loaves of bread [from home] in the bag for me) would be the very similar "Ponemi tres panes in bertula" in Sardinian.[22]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language
 
Old May 11th, 2019 #12
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A little more info on the German dialect sphere . . In post No. 1 I said that the German people are not a single people , hence the many tongues.

It is amazing to note that languages like Dutch and Swiss-German are reminiscent of ancient German dialects . . Dutch , if you will , is a German dialect . . Those who speak / understand neither , compare the two . .

As is Swiss-German . . it is the closest related to Swabian.

These two areas ( Switzerland ,Netherlands ) already early parted from 'Greater Germany' . .

Dutch is closely related to the tongues of Western Germany ( the Rhine-region ) , 'ripuarian' . .

Roughly speaking there are dialect regions in Germany based on Bavarians , Swabians , Frisians , Saxons , Thuringians and Franks . .

Bavarian in the region of Bavaria , Swabian largely in the region of Württemberg , Frisian based dialects in the West ( Mosel , Rhineland ) , ancient Saxon ( Plattdeutsch ) still a a languge in the north , Thuringian-based dialects in Thuringia itself as well as Upper Saxon.

The Franks , however , play a big role . . They were more or less "in between" . .

There are Frankish-based regions in Bavaria , in Hesse , on the Mosel river even to the Rhineland . .

'Special cases' include for example 'Ruhrdeutsch' ( the German spoken in the Ruhr-area ) or the Berlin dialect . .
 
Old May 11th, 2019 #13
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Smile Su navi per mariiii

Quote:
That's why Italian words are good for singing since words ending with a vocal at the end can be 'stretched' when singing . . 'Navi per mariiii. .' for example . .
Ah yes, one of my favorite songs, especially the duet version with Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman.

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Old May 11th, 2019 #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart Meadows View Post
Here's an especially interesting excerpt from the above Wikipedia article:

Sardinian is considered the most conservative Romance language,[20] and its substratum (Paleo-Sardinian or Nuragic) has also been researched. A 1949 study by Italian-American linguist Mario Pei, analyzing the degree of difference from a language's parent (Latin, in the case of Romance languages) by comparing phonology, inflection, syntax, vocabulary, and intonation, indicated the following percentages (the higher the percentage, the greater the distance from Latin):[21] Sardinian 8%, Italian 12%, Spanish 20%, Romanian 23.5%, Occitan 25%, Portuguese 31%, and French 44%. For example, Latin "Pone mihi tres panes in bertula" (put three loaves of bread [from home] in the bag for me) would be the very similar "Ponemi tres panes in bertula" in Sardinian.[22]

I assume the 'interesting excerpt' boils down to what I bolded in the quote, from 'wikipedia' in which the difference is like splitting hairs between my uneducated opinion and those of the author ...who in this rare case I'm actually familiar with.

Mario Pei wrote the awful and biased translation from Italian into American English of de Fiori's book on il Duce, worked for the OSS and the 'War Department' during WWII (against the country of his birth and their allies), accepted a professorship at looney Columbia University after the war which was chock-full of the (((kind of folks))) we rant against on VNNF, a position he never could have secured without (((their))) approval btw, was a champion of (((internationalism))) and promoted esperanto as the world language, and last thing I can think of offhand is that lousy and jewy book he authored "Weasel Words" which was published around the time of his death and which I read in skewl (and still have somewhere). This guy was a sell-out douche, but wikipedia cites him as a brilliant linguist and scholar.

But, alas I am not a linguist or a Columbia professor so I guess his opinion has more weight than mine. I just know in my heart that no red blooded Italian would ever say that some fucking semitized language spoken by island monkeys was more akin to one of their stellar gifts to the world, the Latin language than today's Italian is.

But, who am I ...I'm just a commercial construction manager in NYC ...that deals with a lot of Italian Americans and guess what ...they all feel the same as I do.


Cheers
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Old May 11th, 2019 #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdFire View Post
One of the advantages of Italian is that it is the preferred language for singing since every Italian word ( at least in written Italian) ends with a vocal ( a , e , i , o , u . . )
Take a look at Mozart's La ci darem la mano:


La ci darem la mano,
La mi dirai di sģ:
Vedi, non č lontano,
Partiam, ben mio, da qui.

Vorrei e non vorrei,
Mi trema un poco il cor,
Felice, č ver, sarei,
Ma puņ burlarmi ancor!

Vieni, mio bel diletto!
Mi fa pietą Masetto.
Io cangierņ tua sorte.
Presto... non son pił forte.

Andiam!
Andiam!
Andiam, andiam, mio bene,
a ristorar le pene
D’un innocente amor.

I counted twenty words ending in a consonant in that short passage alone. That's more than one per line. And, if you consider the name of the opera that that is from, Don Giovanni, also contains a word ending in a consonant, that makes twenty-one.


In this clip, the subtitles are in Italian on the top line and Spanish on the bottom line.
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Old May 12th, 2019 #16
Stewart Meadows
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Originally Posted by T.Garrett View Post
I assume the 'interesting excerpt' boils down to what I bolded in the quote, from 'wikipedia' in which the difference is like splitting hairs between my uneducated opinion and those of the author ...who in this rare case I'm actually familiar with.

Mario Pei wrote the awful and biased translation from Italian into American English of de Fiori's book on il Duce, worked for the OSS and the 'War Department' during WWII (against the country of his birth and their allies), accepted a professorship at looney Columbia University after the war which was chock-full of the (((kind of folks))) we rant against on VNNF, a position he never could have secured without (((their))) approval btw, was a champion of (((internationalism))) and promoted esperanto as the world language, and last thing I can think of offhand is that lousy and jewy book he authored "Weasel Words" which was published around the time of his death and which I read in skewl (and still have somewhere). This guy was a sell-out douche, but wikipedia cites him as a brilliant linguist and scholar.

But, alas I am not a linguist or a Columbia professor so I guess his opinion has more weight than mine. I just know in my heart that no red blooded Italian would ever say that some fucking semitized language spoken by island monkeys was more akin to one of their stellar gifts to the world, the Latin language than today's Italian is.

But, who am I ...I'm just a commercial construction manager in NYC ...that deals with a lot of Italian Americans and guess what ...they all feel the same as I do.


Cheers
Thank you for this interesting post, T. There's no doubt that it was wrong of Mario Pei to work for the evil, jew-controlled Department of War, and to promote globalism and the stupid and ugly artificial jew language known as Esperanto, but the claim that Sardinian is the language that's closest to Latin (or "the most conservative Romance language", which is another way of putting it) is widely accepted. Have you ever read texts in Sardinian and then compared them to Italian and Latin? I have, and I agree with the experts.
 
Old May 13th, 2019 #17
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Thumbs down Mario Pei

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart Meadows View Post
Thank you for this interesting post, T. There's no doubt that it was wrong of Mario Pei to work for the evil, jew-controlled Department of War, and to promote globalism and the stupid and ugly artificial jew language known as Esperanto, but the claim that Sardinian is the language that's closest to Latin (or "the most conservative Romance language", which is another way of putting it) is widely accepted. Have you ever read texts in Sardinian and then compared them to Italian and Latin? I have, and I agree with the experts.
You're fluent in Latin, Sardinian and Italian? I'll look at what you have, I'm curious.

I think Mario Pei was a douche, he wasn't just 'wrong' Stewart he was a fucking traitor. That doesn't necessarily invalidate his investigations into Romance languages (which I'm sure were peer reviewed), its simply that when someone like this sellout opines on an issue of some import to Euro culture my first reaction is bullshit. And especially an issue concerning his 'native' Italy, which he stabbed in the back to curry favor with some of the slimiest anglo/jews that have ever breathed free air.

Like everything else, just my opinion.
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Old May 13th, 2019 #18
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Originally Posted by T.Garrett View Post
You're fluent in Latin, Sardinian and Italian?
I don't actually speak Sardinian (few non-Sardinians do). I do, however, speak Italian and I studied Latin in school, so that obviously helps when you read texts in these languages and compare them to each other.

Quote:
I'll look at what you have, I'm curious.
It's just ordinary texts and phrases that I've come across over the years when reading books and articles about Romance languages, I don't really have much about Sardinian stored on my computer that I can post right now.

Quote:
I think Mario Pei was a douche, he wasn't just 'wrong' Stewart he was a fucking traitor.
I agree with you.

Quote:
That doesn't necessarily invalidate his investigations into Romance languages (which I'm sure were peer reviewed),
Exactly, that was my point.

Quote:
its simply that when someone like this sellout opines on an issue of some import to Euro culture my first reaction is bullshit. And especially an issue concerning his 'native' Italy, which he stabbed in the back to curry favor with some of the slimiest anglo/jews that have ever breathed free air.
That's a good attitude since academics – mainly jews but also their white lackeys – often use their lofty position to advance the nefarious jewish agenda and spread anti-white lies. But in this case, I agree with Pei.
 
Old May 13th, 2019 #19
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Originally Posted by Stewart Meadows View Post
I don't actually speak Sardinian (few non-Sardinians do)
You are versed in Latin and are fluent in Italian but you cant understand much Sardinian

OK.

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Old May 13th, 2019 #20
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Originally Posted by T.Garrett View Post
You are versed in Latin and are fluent in Italian but you cant understand much Sardinian
I didn't say that I can't "understand much Sardinian", I said that I don't speak it (because that's what you asked me). Do you understand the difference between active and passive knowledge of a language?
 
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