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Old July 12th, 2012 #61
Alex Linder
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Originally Posted by keifer View Post
You really don't know what you are talking about do you?
I don't know. Why don't you go look up what Oscar Wilde says about art and naturalness.
 
Old July 12th, 2012 #62
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Agree, altho authenticity is a confusing concept. Art isn't natural. By definition.
"Authentic" in terms of genuine feel & passion.
 
Old July 12th, 2012 #63
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Ok...I watched/listened to a lot of country back in the nineties and early 2000s, Gill was pretty big in at least some of those years. But I think he's easily ten years out of date. Not that he's any worse, the industry just moves on, and only the very biggest can ride multiple waves. Most fall back to the county fair level. And also because they've had their success and are content to do less than they needed to do to get/stay to/at the top.
It's hard to stay on top. In anything. The world turns. The real trick is to be wildly popular decades after you die of a barbiturate overdose.
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Old July 12th, 2012 #64
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I don't know. Why don't you go look up what Oscar Wilde says about art and naturalness.
"According to Wilde", so then you are plagiarizing your ideas. I could also ask Sartre, he wrote the book on abstract expressionism for which his readers and practitioners claim is the most truest art of primal man. I suspect Sartre did as much as anyone else did in proliferating the ideas of equalizing that fermented in the Frankfurt school.
I would recommend that the discussion regarding the definition of art should have its own thread., appropriately titled so I know to avoid it.

As it relates to nature, Art is one of the most primal natural agenda there is. Right from the start an infant is making visual and audio distinctions and adopting ways of organizing that stimuli. It is impossible for art to not happen. Consider Alex, your exceptional skill with writing. Do your words need to be on paper in order for the aesthetics of art to exist. Even if you are your one and only audience. The same can be said about visual and audio observation. Great words you yourself have thought that no one will know, or the great conductors who have no choice but to organize sounds in their head. "It just came to me".
The core of art is communication, it is a language and that is why it is nature. The very first person ever born would not have lasted a week with out the natural drive toward art in particular as it relates to the art object as a functional object such as tools and archetecture for which to negotiate with nature. One need only to observe cave paintings to see that artists and hunter were one in the same. If there is an element of art that is unnatural, then it is in recent representation as a reactionary response to society as an unnatural.
When I was 4th-5th grade I would sit in class and make elaborate drawings of underground societies that existed apart from what I saw externally day to day. Being a separatists just came naturally.
 
Old July 12th, 2012 #65
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Originally Posted by N.B. Forrest View Post
"Authentic" in terms of genuine feel & passion.
Like the contestants on the late Jerry Springer show?

Many of them were actors. Does that make it less real or artistic?

I don't think 'authentic' really means anything. We all have real emotions, and we all dissimulate. The skill in conveying something is where the difference lies.

Were those queer jews who composed "Tomorrow Belongs to Me" authentic or fakes?

I don't think it matters. Or else the answer is both. They could not have composed the piece without understanding the emotions the song raises; yet they not only didn't experience those emotions themselves, presumably they were put off by them, as per the reaction of the heroes in the story. Either way, the piece they came up with is emotionally affecting, which, along with other things, makes it a successful piece of art.

Last edited by Alex Linder; July 12th, 2012 at 10:47 AM.
 
Old July 12th, 2012 #66
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Is Dolly Parton's "Coat of Many Colors" more affecting because it's real to her experience?

Is "Mama Tried" less affecting because Haggard was not sentenced to life in prison for his rebellious stunts?

I just don't think authenticity is clear cut in meaning, as relates to art. Genuine heartfelt emotion is like a raw material, but it's fashioning it into something artistic, the skill it takes to do that, that is hard to find. Having lived or felt that emotion, as the jews who composed "Tomorrow" obviously did not, shows that authenticity, while it may add a little something (if you feel the artist has actually more or less gone through what he's writing about, a la Janis Joplin or Dolly Parton or Merle Haggard) but strictly speaking authenticity isn't relevant.
 
Old July 12th, 2012 #67
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"According to Wilde", so then you are plagiarizing your ideas.
Yeah that really follows from my suggesting you read something.

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I could also ask Sartre, he wrote the book on abstract expressionism for which his readers and practitioners claim is the most truest art of primal man. I suspect Sartre did as much as anyone else did in proliferating the ideas of equalizing that fermented in the Frankfurt school.
What has this got to do with anything? 'Most truest' - really?

Quote:
As it relates to nature, Art is one of the most primal natural agenda there is. Right from the start an infant is making visual and audio distinctions and adopting ways of organizing that stimuli. It is impossible for art to not happen. Consider Alex, your exceptional skill with writing. Do your words need to be on paper in order for the aesthetics of art to exist. Even if you are your one and only audience. The same can be said about visual and audio observation. Great words you yourself have thought that no one will know, or the great conductors who have no choice but to organize sounds in their head. "It just came to me".
Art is the opposite of nature. The urge to create art may be natural in some, but art itself is the selection and rejection of elements according to some particular design devised by the artist. In one of Wilde's plays, a woman says to another, "Your hair is quite as nature might have left it." Even hair design is artificial - man made. Artistic, inauthentic, artificial. Nature is not artistic and has nothing to do with art, it is merely a giant set of repeating codes. Nature supplies elements that can be turned into art by the artistic, but nature itself merely supplies oddities and landscapes. Oscar Wilde wore a green carnation precisely because such a thing does not exist in nature, and therefore symbolized his school of thought.

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The core of art is communication, it is a language and that is why it is nature.
That's silly. It sounds very much like something you picked up from a teacher telling you that everything is natural, including art, so that everyone is an artist. That would be an egalitarian doctrine fully in keeping with Frankfurt School misleadings.

Everything is never this or that. You can say everything is natural, then the term loses all meaning, like if you say everything is political. No, the term is better used as originally conceived, to mark off a particular area of human concern or creation. Art refers to things artificial, man-made. The drive to create art is natural, the material used to make art are natural, but the product is very far from something that would be found in the world readymade, it's a product distinct to man, as the beaver's laced-limb lodges are peculiar to him.

Quote:
The very first person ever born would not have lasted a week with out the natural drive toward art in particular as it relates to the art object as a functional object such as tools and archetecture for which to negotiate with nature. One need only to observe cave paintings to see that artists and hunter were one in the same.
I very much doubt most cavemen were artists, as the figures found in these caves cannot be drawn by most people. Painting talent then was no doubt as scarce or common as it is today. In any case, painting has nothing to do with hunting, which was a survival necessity to pretty much everyone, at least at the start when they were hunting in gangs.

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If there is an element of art that is unnatural, then it is in recent representation as a reactionary response to society as an unnatural.
Art is the opposite of natural. You don't find art in nature. Just raw materials. The urge to make art is natural in some portion of humanity, and responsiveness to art is natural to pretty much all people, but the making of art has nothing to do with nature or being natural; indeed some art is drawn completely out of the head and has nothing to do with nature at all.

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When I was 4th-5th grade I would sit in class and make elaborate drawings of underground societies that existed apart from what I saw externally day to day. Being a separatists just came naturally.
Yeah, that's the point. Art is not natural. It is the product of the human mind and human skill. It is the opposite of natural although it often incorporates nature's raw materials into its productions. Art that is purely made of natural, authentic feeling is the poetry of a 12-year-old girl - no good.

Last edited by Alex Linder; July 12th, 2012 at 11:26 AM.
 
Old July 12th, 2012 #68
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Yeah that really follows from my suggesting you read something.



What has this got to do with anything? 'Most truest' - really?



Art is the opposite of nature. The urge to create art may be natural in some, but art itself is the selection and rejection of elements according to some particular design devised by the artist. In one of Wilde's plays, a woman says to another, "Your hair is quite as nature might have left it." Even hair design is artificial - man made. Artistic, inauthentic, artificial. Nature is not artistic and has nothing to do with art, it is merely a giant set of repeating codes. Nature supplies elements that can be turned into art by the artistic, but nature itself merely supplies oddities and landscapes. Oscar Wilde wore a green carnation precisely because such a thing does not exist in nature, and therefore symbolized his school of thought.



That's silly. It sounds very much like something you picked up from a teacher telling you that everything is natural, including art, so that everyone is an artist. That would be an egalitarian doctrine fully in keeping with Frankfurt School misleadings.

Everything is never this or that. You can say everything is natural, then the term loses all meaning, like if you say everything is political. No, the term is better used as originally conceived, to mark off a particular area of human concern or creation. Art refers to things artificial, man-made. The drive to create art is natural, the material used to make art are natural, but the product is very far from something that would be found in the world readymade, it's a product distinct to man, as the beaver's laced-limb lodges are peculiar to him.



I very much doubt most cavemen were artists, as the figures found in these caves cannot be drawn by most people. Painting talent then was no doubt as scarce or common as it is today. In any case, painting has nothing to do with hunting, which was a survival necessity to pretty much everyone, at least at the start when they were hunting in gangs.



Art is the opposite of natural. You don't find art in nature. Just raw materials. The urge to make art is natural in some portion of humanity, and responsiveness to art is natural to pretty much all people, but the making of art has nothing to do with nature or being natural; indeed some art is drawn completely out of the head and has nothing to do with nature at all.



Yeah, that's the point. Art is not natural. It is the product of the human mind and human skill. It is the opposite of natural although it often incorporates nature's raw materials into its productions. Art that is purely made of natural, authentic feeling is the poetry of a 12-year-old girl - no good.
What has this got to do with anything? 'Most truest' - really?

This is simply an example that anyone can make shitty art and then try to develop some dialogue as to why it is important. They plagiarize an idea like Wilde and then illustrate it. When someone says thats shitty, then they reply "Oh no thats not true, It's all in the meaning that makes it good, don't you see the Wilde"? When Abstract Expressionists talk about their canvas it is in a plagiarized dialogue of Existential this and Existential that. "I have made a mark therefore I am."
I was parodying Sartre and the Ab-X's.

You deny that humans are not of nature, there fore their efforts for communicating are anti nature, what you have affectively done is completely discredit any notion of genetic code.
Take three stones and a stick, arrange them and you get a face. Any idiot can do this. But very few can make great accurate sculpture. It is not egalitarian to say an african can make a face with 3 stones and a stick, as can anyone else, but rather art displays clearly as much as any other effort that the species are not equal. Africans make a face from stones and a stick, and then they stop. Their intellect runs out.
When you deny art is not of nature you are suggesting that all one has to do is have access to books and education in order to make good art. Your views on art are quite clearly nurture. If art is not of nature why cant you make art? Have you not read the right book. Are your limits to making great art a result of some failed social construct?
Every thing you said in response to quoting me can be summed up with one statement, and that it is that you are anti nature.
 
Old December 27th, 2013 #69
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[i thought i'd already created a #1 country music thread, but could not find it. So resurrected this one and renamed it. I, for one, enjoyed my obnoxious monomaniacal harping on the One True Meaning of Haggard's "Mama Tried." Anyway, the proximate reason for digging up is this article I saw the other day with 'proof that every country music song this year (2013) was the same." Which fits our theme.

http://gawker.com/proof-that-every-c...act-1488547290

Proof That Every Country Music Song This Year Was Exactly the Same

Quote:
When country music critic Grady Smith sat down to write his list of the top 10 Best Country Albums of 2013 he made a startling revelation: All the chart-topping country songs of 2013 sounded exactly the same.

Not in the sense that they all sound like country-pop songs — that's a given — but in the sense that even the lyrics are carbon copies of each other.

Truck - check. Dirt road - check. Sugar shaker in painted-on jeans - check.

In the hopes that country music fans "will stop settling for this derivative junk," Smith made a video to illustrate his point. "I'm holding up a mirror to a genre I care a lot about," he tweeted. "Here's to better music in 2014."

[H/T: HyperVocal]
I don't listen to country these days, but have still hear enough to know what the guy is talking about. Nothing new, it's been moving in the same direction for decades: fewer permitted topics; fewer permitted 'takes' on those topics. The end state will be: Beer good. Woman hot. Party fun. USA #1.

"It" is the streamlining of country. You have the paradox, identified upthread, that country appears to be broadening, by mixing pop, rock and even hip-hop elements, but in reality it is streamlining its themes and spins. As more and more territory becomes unPC, which is to say unsafe, the only thing songwriters can write about is drinking and sex. Which is, as we all should know, exactly what the Frankfurt School anti-white jews want us to focus on.

The streamlining of country music is in line with Orwell's ideas about the totalitarians streamlining language by, year by year, reducing the number of words in actual use.

Last edited by Alex Linder; December 27th, 2013 at 02:28 AM.
 
Old December 27th, 2013 #70
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This 'Mama Tried' thread was one of the better ones for my taste. Art and cultural meme analysis, I dig it the most. I read Camille Paglia a lot for that reason.

The women and partying theme extends to just about every genre. Without looking up the billboard type charts, I couldn't think of any recent big hits that diverged from that.

The 'gangster rap' genre hasn't really existed for 5+ years now. They've held onto that image as style, but the topics are all about worship of sex if not women, partying, and money.
 
Old December 27th, 2013 #71
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This 'Mama Tried' thread was one of the better ones for my taste. Art and cultural meme analysis, I dig it the most. I read Camille Paglia a lot for that reason.

The women and partying theme extends to just about every genre. Without looking up the billboard type charts, I couldn't think of any recent big hits that diverged from that.

The 'gangster rap' genre hasn't really existed for 5+ years now. They've held onto that image as style, but the topics are all about worship of sex if not women, partying, and money.
Yes...it's just like a newstand - you see 500 magazines, dealing with different subjects, so you have the appearance of a thriving press, proliferating and diverse. But when you look inside, you find the same handful of themes. There's an unspoken agreement or coordination that wherever they touch on the deeper topics, they agree. So the diversity is fake, not real. But almost no one appears able to see this. To me, it's easily the most distinctive thing about our 'free' press.

We see the same thing in music. As you point out, the gangsta thing is much less prominent now, it's all about sex and money. Country is perhaps less about money, at least directly, but same emphasis on sex. In country the man chases the woman, in the black shit, the women flock around the men.

I've also noticed over my whole the creation of a sort of generic public-figure personality. One with no real edges, everything it says comes from behind sunglasses and is carefully positive. You have two political options: you can push the envelope (exhibit or promote a leftist cause behind the point to which the public has been acclimatized) or you can just be an ordinary leftist - support queers and minorities. Personally, you can either be clean and straight, or you can descend into drugs/drink and that whole mess. That won't hurt your career necessarily because it's in line with Frankfurt doctrines.

It has become increasingly rare in America to find people with real personalities.
 
Old January 14th, 2014 #72
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Mass music is a taproot plant. There are 1,000 blooms popping up thru the soil, but underneath the soil, behind the screen, they come from the same taproot. They all, no matter the genre, come from one source, one agenda. That's not perfectly true, but it's the right way to think about anything you read on the newsstand, see on tv, or hear on the airwaves. If there's one sure thing history teaches us about goyim, it's that they are easily fooled by surfaces, appearances and labels.

[video thru this clip well worth watching - concerns a Swede named Max Martin who has written and produced 30 #1 hits for a variety of artists across musical divisions. That's more #1 songs than Michael Jackson, yet few have heard of the guy.]

http://gawker.com/pop-musics-biggest...-is-1500209462
 
Old January 14th, 2014 #73
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[just shows you how art that appears to spring from diverse artists and different circumstances actually doesn't. it comes from one genius or a writing team, often as not. the 'artist' is many times simply a performer. i mean, you would think that Taylor Swift sat down and emo-d out "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together," but no, it's the product of some fortysomething Swedish guy. She's just the cute blonde skin on the automaton.]


In 1998, Martin wrote and co-produced Spears' hit "...Baby One More Time" for her album with the same name, (the hit single was originally offered to both the Backstreet Boys, who turned it down, and TLC, who passed because they were 'taking time off'[6]). The single remains Spears' best selling single to this date, and on Vh1's "100 Greatest Songs of the '90s", it was ranked at number 25. Martin also co-wrote and co-produced the third single "(You Drive Me) Crazy". The album ...Baby One More Time has sold over 15 million copies in the U.S., certifying Diamond Status. Also, within a year of its release, ...Baby One More Time had become the best-selling LP by a teenager in history, selling over 30 million copies. Martin was the first non-American citizen ever to win ASCAP's prestigious award "Songwriter of the Year" in 1999 (an award he also won in 2000 and 2001).

Max Martin

Karl Martin Sandberg[1] (born 26 February 1971), known professionally as Max Martin, is a Swedish music producer and songwriter. He rose to prominence in the mid-1990s after crafting a string of massive hits for artists such as Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears and 'N Sync. Some of his earlier hits include "Quit Playing Games (With My Heart)", "Everybody (Backstreet's Back)", "I Want It That Way", "...Baby One More Time", "Oops!... I Did It Again", and "It's My Life".

His trademark during the second half of the 1990s and the early 2000s was a danceable, keyboard-laden pop sound that blended music styles such as funk, heavy metal and europop. However, with Kelly Clarkson's songs "Since U Been Gone" and "Behind These Hazel Eyes", Martin stepped back into the spotlight after reinventing himself with a heavier, rock-tinged sound.

Since 1999, he has written and co-written 16 Billboard number-one hits (most of which he has also produced or co-produced), including "Wish You Were Here" by Avril Lavigne; "So What" and "Raise Your Glass" by Pink; "I Kissed a Girl", "Hot n Cold", "California Gurls", "Teenage Dream", "E.T.", "Last Friday Night (T.G.I.F.)", "Part of Me", "Roar", "The One That Got Away" and "Wide Awake" by Katy Perry; "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together" by Taylor Swift; "My Life Would Suck Without You" by Kelly Clarkson, "...Baby One More Time", "3", "Hold It Against Me" by Britney Spears, and "One More Night" by Maroon 5. Top-10 singles co-written by Martin in the same period include "Dynamite" by Taio Cruz, "DJ Got Us Fallin' in Love" by Usher, "Whataya Want From Me" by Adam Lambert, "F**kin' Perfect" by Pink, "Beauty and a Beat" by Justin Bieber, and, "I Knew You Were Trouble" by Taylor Swift.

Max_Martin Max_Martin

Martin songs
Max_Martin_production_discography Max_Martin_production_discography

Last edited by Alex Linder; January 14th, 2014 at 05:14 PM.
 
Old January 14th, 2014 #74
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Maybe what 'Martin's' example really shows is just how little talent is actually out there, which the memory-inclined among you will recall was precisely the argument of the late Ahmet Ertegun, someone who spent his workday trying to find talent.
 
Old January 14th, 2014 #75
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To an unprecedented degree, today's "music" is PRODUCT. I of course knew that the "artists" were literally nothing but pretty mannequins, and that it's now just glorified sausage-making, but I didn't know that so much of the lips-&-assholes dreck is pinched-off by one canny extruder.

When I googled "Is Max Martin a jew", I got....nothing at all - literally: search never completed.
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Old January 14th, 2014 #76
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"Sludge" is an appropriate term for it ("Today's Music").
 
Old January 14th, 2014 #77
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A true classic.
 
Old January 14th, 2014 #78
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Pop Song (Jon Lajoie) - YouTube

Parody song about how prepackaged pop songs are. Applies to pretty much every genre nowadays though.
 
Old January 14th, 2014 #80
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Maybe what 'Martin's' example really shows is just how little talent is actually out there, which the memory-inclined among you will recall was precisely the argument of the late Ahmet Ertegun, someone who spent his workday trying to find talent.
Not at all, there's plenty of real musical talent out there. It just won't be delivered to us by mass media.

And this Martin character has real talent, too. I'd never heard of him before reading this thread, but I know of people like him. Good pop-song writers are natural politicians and psychologists, just like good comedians. By "good", I mean successful.

This "Max Martin" specializes in little girls' emotion. Could be pedophile, could be homosexual sympathy, could be immature, or he may just be a clever guy who found a rich vein.

Of course they will keep selling the same stuff. Find a gimmick that works and they keep hitting it.

BTW there's his more technical counterpart, the guy who comes up with the sequence of notes. This Martin may be skilled enough that he does that too, I don't know. Sometimes they work in teams, the lyricist and the actual music man.

Songs marketed to young girls are just the most obvious example. You get in in every genre.

http://www.last.fm/music/Max+Martin notice song "Unvalentine". That's clever. Kids often break up on valentine's day, and are familiar with "unfriending" on facebook. He'd be a good politician.

Sounds like he's playing guitar himself, so I have a little more respect for him if it's not a computer audio illusion.
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