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Old May 22nd, 2011 #1
Alex Linder
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Default Strategies for Getting People to Like You or Dislike You Less

[always interesting to see people who are very good at manipulating, seducing or influencing others characterize their ways. Here the author has been arrested by cop and is in the pre-booking stage, so his influence might make the difference in what's charged with (he has been driving drunk and he and friends have been throwing cans of beer at fellow drivers on the expressway)]

For two hours, we talked hunting, fishing, trapping, guns, everything. I just asked him questions about the things he seemed to want to talk about, reinforced his opinions on those issues, avoided any conflict, and always acted interested in what said, without being overly obsequious about it. It was the perfect friendship seduction.

Tucker Max, "Assholes Finish First," p

[can think of a corresponding passage from a book about Bill Clinton, but don't have it at hand; but what the journalist said was that Clinton was so good, he could sit down at a picnic table with two, say, Arkansas (farmers) on different sides of an issue, and speak so glibly and indeterminately that when he walked away, both of them were privately persuaded he was on their side. As a side note, this is the ability democracy rewards as much as any other - taking a principled position only alienates potential voters, so the odds lie in making as many as possible think you're for them. Democracy, thus, rewards lying, deception, and unprincipled glibness.]

Last edited by Alex Linder; June 16th, 2011 at 12:45 PM.
 
Old May 22nd, 2011 #2
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Remember it also being said of Clinton he measured everything against its immediate reception. Maybe that's one reason most pol speak with a halt every few words, like a man walking tentatively through a marsh.

Hitler also described learning to read the audience, but not so as to tell them what they needed to hear, as to put the SAME message in best form for THAT group THAT particular night.
 
Old May 24th, 2011 #3
Paulavt
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Thank you for this thread Alex.
 
Old June 15th, 2011 #4
Danielle
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I dislike Tucker Max because he is my sophomore year of college roommate's boyfriend to a T. He kept this debauched "reserve" or whatever you want to call it of rehearsed stories that "happened to him" that he would compulsively tell bottom of the barrel (intelligence-wise) to naive girls so that they'd think he was fun, clever and a bad boy. Everything in his room had a purpose, was placed there so that a girl or one of his male buddies would see it and say, "Oh, why is this here? That is so random and funny!" I'm pretty sure that he didn't have a real personality anymore, just an empty shell that he perpetually reinforced so that his deep-seated insecurity, alcoholism, and sadness wouldn't collapse in upon itself. Totally unreliable for even the simplest of tasks too, e.g., he'd forget to close the front door on his way out so it would stay open all day, shit like that. Then it would turn into an exaggerated story a month later when he finally got some blathering idiot of a girl into his room and in the retelling there would be a homeless guy standing in his room looking at his CD's and pornos when he came home.

I guess the moral is, there are tons of people just like Tucker Max who just weren't self-absorbed enough to try to turn themselves into a phenomenon. The only reason they have any social success at all is because they figured out there's a portion of the population who mistake being irresponsible with being "fun" and are gullible enough to believe and repeat the bullshit tall tales people tell them at bars. He's a social snake-oil peddler.

That roommate was a piece of work herself. I was working two jobs while going to school full time, and I'd come back late at night to see her unmoved from where I left here crying and double fisting Sailor Jerry's and cokes. When I asked her what was wrong I'd be treated to her oddball vaginal stories about "when she was anorexic" or "when her step-father yelled at her like this". Holy hell, Batman. If I could do it all over again I would've merrily skipped college, but the highest of the pros is it taught me I had to pony up and start being honest and accountable, because interacting with those people regularly made me feel like crap. And drink.

I love being in the company of a man who's a good story-teller, and all intelligent men essentially are. However, this need not be done in the most innocuous way possible.
 
Old June 15th, 2011 #5
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This is a bit more on topic:

It's part of an interview Jay Leno did for a book recently,

Jay Leno: The trick is not to know more than everybody else knows, it's to know exactly what everybody else knows. If a story's on the cover of the New York Times, USA Today, the L.A. Times, the Boston Globe, if they all have the same story, that's what you write jokes about.
My job is not to give the audience new information--sometimes you can, but the trick is to take the information they already have, then turn it on its head a little, or exaggerate or blow it out of propotion to make it funnier than it is in real life.
 
Old June 16th, 2011 #6
Alex Linder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle View Post
This is a bit more on topic:

It's part of an interview Jay Leno did for a book recently,

Jay Leno: The trick is not to know more than everybody else knows, it's to know exactly what everybody else knows. If a story's on the cover of the New York Times, USA Today, the L.A. Times, the Boston Globe, if they all have the same story, that's what you write jokes about.
My job is not to give the audience new information--sometimes you can, but the trick is to take the information they already have, then turn it on its head a little, or exaggerate or blow it out of propotion to make it funnier than it is in real life.
Leno is a go-with-the-flow type. His act, back decades ago when I used to watch that shit occasionally, was not as sex-puerile as it is today. But that's where the jews were pushing, so that's where he went.

It does work, that's for sure.
 
Old June 16th, 2011 #7
Steve B
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
[can think of a corresponding passage from a book about Bill Clinton, but don't have it at hand; but what the journalist said was that Clinton was so good, he could sit down at a picnic table with two, say, Arkansas (farmers) on different sides of an issue, and speak so glibly and indeterminately that when he walked away, both of them were privately persuaded he was on their side. As a side note, this is the ability democracy rewards as much as any other - taking a principled position only alienates potential voters, so the odds lie in making as many as possible think you're for them. Democracy, thus, rewards lying, deception, and unprincipled glibness.]
Reminds me of a book I read as a yoot, How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie. The basic premise of the book was to show that it is possible to change other peoples behavior by changing ones reaction to them. Supposedly you do this by being a good listener, making them feel important and encouraging people to talk about themselves and their interests. Then you appeal to "nobler motives" by making them feel happy about doing what you suggest. Clinton was a master at it. Personally I viewed these techniques as nothing more than kissing ass on stupid people whose thoughts and opinions meant nothing to me. Guess I'd make a crappy politician.
 
Old June 16th, 2011 #8
Alex Linder
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Reminds me of a book I read as a yoot, How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie. The basic premise of the book was to show that it is possible to change other peoples behavior by changing ones reaction to them. Supposedly you do this by being a good listener, making them feel important and encouraging people to talk about themselves and their interests. Then you appeal to "nobler motives" by making them feel happy about doing what you suggest. Clinton was a master at it. Personally I viewed these techniques as nothing more than kissing ass on stupid people whose thoughts and opinions meant nothing to me. Guess I'd make a crappy politician.
Carnegie's way is to essentially make yourself into a mirror. Don't issue any opinions or show any character, just grin and reflect whatever the other guy is putting out, and he'll think you're a swell fellow. It does work, but I believe the price is higher than Carnegie lets on.
 
Old June 16th, 2011 #9
Alex Linder
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Phrase I remember, re Clinton, he 'measured everything against its immediate reception.'

So these demo pols are watching you react to the things they're saying to you so they can quickly cut off an unfruitful line or pursue a positive one.
 
Old June 17th, 2011 #10
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"Fuck Tucker. Tucker sucks" - George Carlin

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Carnegie's way is to essentially make yourself into a mirror. Don't issue any opinions or show any character, just grin and reflect whatever the other guy is putting out, and he'll think you're a swell fellow. It does work, but I believe the price is higher than Carnegie lets on.
I'll be damned. That's what I've always referred to as "stripper conversation". It's what I've admittedly employed on first dates and job interviews, but it leaves a hollow tang. As far as influence it won't give you more than an inch. Some can take an inch and run a mile, but that's not a skill one can learn from poking their nose in a book or reading forums.
 
Old June 17th, 2011 #11
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"Fuck Tucker. Tucker sucks" - George Carlin



I'll be damned. That's what I've always referred to as "stripper conversation". It's what I've admittedly employed on first dates and job interviews, but it leaves a hollow tang. As far as influence it won't give you more than an inch. Some can take an inch and run a mile, but that's not a skill one can learn from poking their nose in a book or reading forums.
Well, I haven't read Carnegie's book, I'm sure there's a little more to it than that, along the lines of "few people succeed unless a lot of others want them to." I think C's thing is to get people 1) to like you, and then 2) to help you. And I guess at some point you influence them in line with the theory, "they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care."

Carnegie's way is inherently more feminine than masculine because it's passive, at least at the start. You're trying to fit yourself to the other person, to make yourself agreeable, as a way to win them over, preparatory to using them to advance your own interests through their help or by influencing them. Of course, it needn't be cynical, it could also turn into a true friendship where there's mutual appreciation and aid.
 
Old May 17th, 2012 #12
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Aside from the validating which always works and which can be gone into greater detail if necessary, I like the idea of the theory where you mimick the body postures and slight moves of the person you are listening to. Its actually supposed to imprint them onto you and they become attached. I have never tried it but I am sure there are subtle ways to do it. I'll look into it a little more.
If it works you may be able to say less and just move more and get a trusted supporter for later education.
 
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