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August 15th, 2007 | #1 |
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Christian Identity And VNN
Admins and moderators, your first instinct may be to move this thread to the religion section... read through and you'll see why I put it here instead of there.
Since I can't get air time for this... at least not here... I'm posting this. It's long. Read it. Bear with me. Saturday night, we had an FTL session with Bro. Randy Gray and he explained the tenets of Christian Identity. I tried to ask him a question, but my question was misinterpreted and ignored by both him and Mark. So be it. What I was attempting to show were the big giant holes in CI theology. I'll do that here and explain why no self-respecting White man should have anything to do with it. Lastly, let me say: this is not a personal attack on Bro. Gray or an CI adherent here. Basics: CI is based on bullshit. A decent education (not an edjewcation) in the Bible and history will bear this out. Here are some points: CI claims that the Caucasian/Indo-European race came from the lost ten tribes of Israel, and that we as Whites are the inheritors of that covenant with Yahweh. Actually, the Indo-Europeans predate Israel by a long shot. IE culture extends back to 2-3 thousand years before Christ. The IEs were in what's now Greece in 2000 BC and in northern India in 1500BC. The lost ten tribes of Israel were conquered and carried off in the 700s BC. Big difference... so you can see that we had our own culture and existence long before the Kingdom of Israel was captured by the Assyrians. The Israelites are not our ancestors. The confusion comes in here: CI is based on British Israelism... a philosophy started in the early 1800s... long before any serious archeological scholarship into the origins of the IEs was done. Bro. Gray dwelled extensively on the Genesis story of mankind's fall as a basis for establishing a satanic seedline for the muds. More on that in a minute, but let me touch this first: The Bible is not an historical document. Parts of it are based on history... mainly around the Books of Judges, Kings, etc.... but the whole thing is geared to explain the story of the Jews. Get this down: the Bible is For Jews By Jews... FJBJ. They should make shirts that say this. Genesis... especially the first few chapters... mainly draws on Babylonian mythology for its sources. It's not history. It's myth. It's an effort to explain the national origins of Israel. The Jews held in captivity in Babylon heard these stories, thought they sounded good, and adapted them to their own national history. Bro. Gray says the serpent in Eden was Satan. He's not alone there... most Christian theology holds the same idea. However, regardless if the serpent was Satan or not, he did not mate with Eve. If Satan mating with Eve gave rise to the mud races, don't you think the authors of the Bible would have pointed that out??? Infernal propagation on a human female would be one of those things that would be noteworthy. In any case, there's no evidence that's the serpent's "beguiling" of Eve is a euphemism for sex. Bro. Gray stated that Strong's Concordance interpreted "beguiling" as sexual seduction. My Strong's, and the two somewhat radical preachers I consulted, say that the reference to "beguiling" is a reference to misleading someone from an established path of belief with honeyed words. In addition, if the beguilement of Eve was a veiled reference to sex, then why... in the very next chapter... does it plainly state that Adam "knew" Eve and she conceived and bore Cain and then bore Abel? Why use a euphemism in one verse... then a few verses later explicitly explain the conception of the two children? Cain was not the child of the devil and not the ancestor of the mud races. If he was, then how did they survive Noah's flood? CI's claim that the flood only covered a certain part of the world. If so, then was was the point in having a flood?... the Bible explains that God flooded the world to destroy humanity with the exception of Noah and his family. Why then only flood a certain part? Wouldn't He have wanted to destroy the seed of Cain as well? The shit doesn't make sense... and that's what happens when you try to rationalize 2500 year old Hebrew bullshit. I can go on with many more things, but I think my point has been made. If anyone has a question, I can try and explain further if needs be. Now, that aside... let me say this: VNN needs to stop catering to this nonsense. We have a movement that demands we play for keeps. We should not have time for nor tolerate half-truths and bullshit. Recall Jesus' parable of the wise man who built his house on rock and the numbnuts who built his on sand. It applies here. There's a thousand things FTL programming should be concentrating on that would be useful to our movement. CI isn't one of them. CI is based on the Bible and the Bible is a tool of the Jews. Now I'm sorry if I'm stepping on the toes of CIers, Protestants and Catholics here... that's not my intention... but the Bible is part of a System that you need to get out of your head, White Man. It's one more tool that can be used to beat you into submission. The quicker you divorce yourself from that mindset, the better off you'll be and the clearer you'll think. Nothing against Randy Gray... he's always been cool with me... but devoting air time to CI theology is a fucking travesty and should be stopped. However, no one's really in charge here anymore, so I doubt it will. All I can do is encourage self-respecting Whites to not cater to this line of crap and use that time more productively elsewhere. I will.
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August 15th, 2007 | #2 |
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If 'The Bible' is by Whites, about Whites, for Whites, why is it set in the desert sands with camels and lions etc. instead of in the pine forests with rivers and wolves etc.
Professor Revilo Pendleton Oliver explained the origins of Christianity: http://www.revilo-oliver.com/rpo/RPO...ist/toc_ol.htm I think that it was formed by protoarabs, who are racially one step down from Whites. It entered the West through the teeming mixed race African/Asian slums of the dirty, degraded, decadent, degenerate imploding late Roman Empire. It was spread across the White lands on a wave of mutilation ('imposed by fire and sword'). Whites were killed, mutilated and expropriated and our native culture was destroyed. Then the Church tyrannized over Whites, while the regular people lived short hard lives of toil and suffering the fat soft-handed priests lived the good life on their sinecures drinking the finest wines, eating the choicest meats, having perverted sex etc. and hiring sadistic thugs to enforce their dogma, as we know the famous example of 'The Bible says that the Sun revolves around the Earth', that had been known to be false for thousands of years, however for rising above the level of a church-owned serf you would be arrested, horribly tortured, expropriated, publicly humiliated and forced to 'confess', then executed while the clergy stood around your burning body singing hymns over your screams. Over time Christianity has been 'Whitened up'. It has myth, legend, history, allegory, law, political commentary, culture etc. etc. from many different peoples at different times in different places, going back into prehistory, first hand, second hand, third hand, mashed together, parts cut out, parts added in, parts distorted, and has been retranslated and reinterpreted and Bowdlerized many times. Check out the book 'Sixteen Crucified Saviors' as a big, well illustrated example. Monotheism is not White. The idea of a maximum ultimate infinite God is not White. The idea of slavish submission and abasement to 'God' is not White. The idea of maximum eternal torture in Hell is not White. The idea of Heaven as a big city is not White. The focussing on God incarnating, then slickly verbally wrangling with lawyers, then deliberately being arrested, humiliated, tortured and executed, is sick and nonwhite. The symbol of Christianity, the cross, is really sick and disturbing. Christianity's inverted morality, which Nietzsche discussed in detail and called 'slave morality' is not White. He called IIRC Christianity the 'one unpardonable sin'. Apart from their proclivity to racially brown out, Whites have an endless fascination for Nonwhite culture. Whites are from the cold, skinny north and they find the hot, more gaudy, more energetic and forceful, self indulgent primitive styles of culture from the southern races seductive. Christianity is a sickness. |
August 15th, 2007 | #3 | |
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August 15th, 2007 | #4 |
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You're welcome, and let's keep bumping this one to the top so it doesn't "disappear."
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The world doesn't change; its laws are eternal. --- Adolf Hitler You have to become a terrible thought... you have to become an idea. |
August 15th, 2007 | #5 | |
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If you study the subject the belief was that a certain group of people, within White society, were descended from the lost ten tribes, but that when they came to Britain there was already a well established White population on the continent. This can be seen, for example, in the use of the tale of Joseph of Arimathea, whom legend says visited Britain to pass on the message of god (you can't pass on a message if there's not people there to receive it). Actually, it's also claimed, in legend, that in an earlier visit to Britain that Joseph of Arimathea was accompanied by jesus, and that gives rise to the lyrics in the song Jerusalem, a hymn written by C. Hubert H. Parry, based on a short poem by William Blake from the preface to his epic Milton: a Poem (1804). And did those feet in ancient time walk upon England’s mountains green? And was the holy Lamb of God on England’s pleasant pastures seen? And did the countenance divine shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here among these dark Satanic Mills? Bring me my bow of burning gold! Bring me my arrows of desire! Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold! Bring me my chariot of fire! I will not cease from mental fight, nor shall my sword sleep in my hand, till we have built Jerusalem In England’s green and pleasant Land. So, yeah, I'm not a follower of British Israelism, but the claim that it was ignorant of history and/or archeology, and claims the Caucasian/Indo-European race came from the lost ten tribes of Israel is just wrong. |
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August 15th, 2007 | #6 |
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Noone responds well to people aiming to strip them of their spirituality. Thats as jewish/communist as it gets.
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What we do claim is that the northern European, and particularly Anglo-Saxons made this country. Oh, yes; the others helped. But that is the full statement of the case. They came to this country because it was already made as an Anglo-Saxon commonwealth. They added to it, they often enriched it, but they did not make it, and they have not yet greatly changed it. We are determined that they shall not. (Congressional Record, 4/8/1924, 5922) |
August 15th, 2007 | #7 | ||
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I'm glad you brought this up, Francis.
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However, my point, and I should have been more clear, was that the extensive archeological evidence we have on the IEs today didn't exist in the 1700s and early 1800s. Anthropological study of our origins was still in its infancy. I am aware that difference adherents to BI espoused different levels of ancestry for the ten tribes. Some said total descent, some said partial descent (mainly for the British themselves) and some said royal descent. In case anyone wishes to argue that the ten tribes merely blended into the existing IE population, then it follows that their ancestry and lineage would disappear over time unless they made deliberate efforts to keep themselves seperated. Quote:
Good points, and should have been touched, but I wanted to hit the basics in my original post.
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The world doesn't change; its laws are eternal. --- Adolf Hitler You have to become a terrible thought... you have to become an idea. |
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August 15th, 2007 | #8 | |
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What's the matter, did I piss in your cheerios, Timmy?
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The world doesn't change; its laws are eternal. --- Adolf Hitler You have to become a terrible thought... you have to become an idea. |
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August 15th, 2007 | #9 | |
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Unrelated bit of info: I have seen it recently claimed that modern DNA tests reveal that all Semitic language groups also share DNA patterns. Before "experts" (Jews) always said "This is a language group, not an ethnic group". But Semitic is an ethnic group. It doesn't include English. |
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August 15th, 2007 | #10 | |
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That was all pretty cool, and I could see the appeal of it, many years ago, I think many people would prefer a religion that involved a few people like King Arthur, than just some of the stuff they get from other religious books. (for those wondering about the connection, Joseph of Arimathea was reputed to have landed in Cornwall, and after setting up Glastonbury Abbey returned to the area, and settled there, and brought up his family, and that his great great great great great grandson was King Arthur) In actual reality there is some basis for some connection with Israel/Palestine in the area, as a few rich traders from that region did trade with the Cornish tin mines, and there are records of this, that's not to say that the rest is true, or not true, but it's probably the source of it all. |
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August 15th, 2007 | #11 | ||
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What we do claim is that the northern European, and particularly Anglo-Saxons made this country. Oh, yes; the others helped. But that is the full statement of the case. They came to this country because it was already made as an Anglo-Saxon commonwealth. They added to it, they often enriched it, but they did not make it, and they have not yet greatly changed it. We are determined that they shall not. (Congressional Record, 4/8/1924, 5922) |
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August 15th, 2007 | #12 | |
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Now that you've jarred my memory, I do recall the legends of Joseph coming to England and burying the Grail on Glastonbury Hill, IIRC.
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The world doesn't change; its laws are eternal. --- Adolf Hitler You have to become a terrible thought... you have to become an idea. |
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August 15th, 2007 | #13 | ||
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There are similar legends in France and Germany too (and probably other places I haven't heard of), although I'm not aware of any others taking it to the same religious level. Little known fact, the former Primeminister of Britain, Benjamin D'Israeli (jew), encouraged Queen Victoria to study BI, and a number of members of the royal household, at that time, privately became followers of the religion. |
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August 15th, 2007 | #14 | ||
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Here is the thing, CI is a large and growing part of Wnism. Most of the people who claim CI’s are trying to convert others are instead trying to convert CI’s to Atheism or Paganism. I don’t see anything wrong with a debate but the coin should be 2 sided. If a person can call Christ a Jew on a stick, then why should Christians stand back and do nothing.
If people can call Christ a Jew, then they should produce their information, allow it to be debated and move on. The thing is for example Creators will call Christ a Jew, then express offense if a CI calls Klassen a Jew. The Creator will then claim the CI is an ARA or the like. Atheists are the worst for trying to push their ideology on others. I have news for people like Kurtz and others, I am not going to be an Atheist so don’t waste your time. Move on to something productive. I do have a question. How many people on here have been converted from CI to Atheism or Creativity because of discussions on this board? Enough to have wasted all the time debating the two? There are a lot of great things destroyed by Jews. I hate sports, but they are not bad it is the Jews that have promoted the Negro in sports. Television is not bad it is the Jews that have made all the shows anti-white. History isn’t bad it is the Jew that has shoved Holocaust down our throats. If a Jew infiltrates a religion and makes part of it anti-white does that make the religion bad as a whole? Actually like Sports, history and television all these things are victims of the Jew. The Jew is the problem but to many people loose focus and can’t see that. A Negro throws a basketball does that mean I shouldn’t enter a shooting tournament? Jews control television does that mean I can’t watch guns of the world? A Jew controls John Haggee does that mean I can’t expose Jews on Sunday? If we disregarded everything Jews have tainted then we couldn’t live our lives. From the Kosher scandal on the food we eat to the toxins released in the air and water we breathe and drink released by Jewish companies. Everything has a Jew taint to it. They are not all powerful but they are like a rapid spreading virus. CI’s couldn’t get half the attention on VNNF if it wasn’t for anti-Christians making anti-Christian threads and always talking about Christians. I guarantee one thing, there is something wrong with the world today and it isn’t Christian Identity. It is Jews. When people can see that, then and only then we can make progress. Until then we will just be running around in the same circles I have seen since joining VNNF. Nothing about religion that is posted or debated is new and can’t be found with a simple use of the search function. It is just a cop out to waste time and an excuse to not be productive. It brings hard feelings and stops people from wanting to join together against the common enemy. Which is why I think Creativity is anti-white. It was designed to divide whites. Creativity divides all the religious sections in Wnism. Several religions will always be a part of Wnism no matter if a million posts are made on VNNF. There are going to be religious people on goyfire. If Alex was to say people had to denounce all religion to be on Goyfire, it would be a lonely place to be. Quote:
I notice that you have an Asian avatar (Yin Yang) and a Mexican name. Odd that you would be saying what is white and what is not. Many on VNNF contend that Iranians are Aryan, last time I checked it was full of sand, camels and there were no pine forests and rivers. Revilo committed suicide just as did Klassen. Both suffered mental illness in their lives and were highly medicated. Both called Christianity a mental illness and suicidal religion. They were both hypocritical in their views on religion and listening to them talk about Christianity is like listening to David Bowie talk about the need for whites to marry whites. Quote:
In the end nothing changes the fact that the Jews who ruled the Roman Pagans forced them to kill Christ. Revilo and Klassen both killed themselves. That is fact. .
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http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...64&postcount=9 Doppelhaken, Draco, Richard H, ToddinFl, Augustus Sutter, Chain, Subrosa, Jarl, White Will, whose next? |
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August 15th, 2007 | #15 |
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It is true that no one will respond favorably but I believe us White Nationalists to be truth seekers, and that's what is important. You want to be contempt and lied to? I sure the hell don't. I know the creator/CI flame wars recently went down at a really lowbrow level and many people hate to bring the issue up, but it's like the pink elephant. Regardless VNN has always took a rational, non-christian approach to things let's keep it that way.
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August 15th, 2007 | #16 | |||||||||||
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Proverbs 1:7; “The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.” Psalm 14:1; “ The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works.” Case and point - look how smart the "athiests" are here at VNN, lol. Quote:
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August 15th, 2007 | #17 |
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2 words...
The Order
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August 15th, 2007 | #18 | ||
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Two points here:
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I contend that the Bible is a Jewish invention that outlines their mythic origins and development as a nation both "historically" and theologically. It has nothing to do with us. It's used as a weapon to beat us over the head with, and we should recognize it for what it is and treat it accordingly. My personal opinion, and this is just my opinion FWIW: CIers probably were good church goers at one time. They were taught to respect Israel and constantly heard how cool the Israelites were. Then they discovered the Jew for what it was and had a problem. How do you reconcile the two emotions? OH! Let's just claim that we Whites are the real Israelites.! That'll solve it. No thanks. Quote:
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The world doesn't change; its laws are eternal. --- Adolf Hitler You have to become a terrible thought... you have to become an idea. |
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August 15th, 2007 | #19 |
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Heh heh heh heh....
woooooooooooo.... sticky point.
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The world doesn't change; its laws are eternal. --- Adolf Hitler You have to become a terrible thought... you have to become an idea. |
August 15th, 2007 | #20 |
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What was the religious makeup of The Order?
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