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May 12th, 2010 | #2121 |
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Quick thought without reading the entire thread. Maybe these questions have been raised before.
It seems that archeologist routinely excavate ancient outhouses and examine the shit found there in. Consider this: Archeologist can prove, that 8,000 years ago a small village of a couple hundred people cooked a dear, ate the dear, their stomachs digested the dear, and much of their dear meat components broken down as absorbed into the blood stream, and remainder defecated into a hole in the ground. The shit sat in the hole for thousand years and just by luck somebody found the hole. How come the techniques used to examine the shit cannot be to find and prove that 6 million jews were gassed and cremated or not, and put in a hole, when everybody know where the holes are and the ash/bodies were put in the hole only 60 years ago. Think about how many archeologist are there around the world today in remote and inhospitable locations without electricity and protection from the elements digging in ancient toilets trying to figure exactly what the member of a small village cooked, ate, digested and defecated thousand of years ago? Certainly if they can determine what a few hundred or thousand people ate and shit thousands of years ago certainly they can find the remain of millions of jews that died recently? Certainly 6 millions dead jews are more important then caveman shit? Right? How many jew archeologist are today digging all over Palestine trying to determine how the ancient jews lived and died, what they ate, etc thousand of years ago? How many of the jew archeologist are doing this to confirm what the Old Testament is validate? Why not have these jew archeologist sent to the gassing camps and once and for all prove the "holocaust" occurred. Certainly no group would be more motivated and qualified to prove that the "holocaust" isn't a lie that is perpetuated for financial and territorial gain among other things. Is there some reason to why well established archaeology techniques are not being used to resolve the issue? Now if archeological excavation have been performed at the gassing camps maybe somebody should create wiki page documenting them and their findings. Is yet another museum, holiday, NPR/PBS documentary, law, movie, public school indoctrination program, another super rich "survivor" telling his tale, etc. really going to change the minds of anybody? |
May 13th, 2010 | #2122 | |
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It's also not accurate that 6 million Jews were "gassed and cremated". The figure six million is defensible as the total demographic loss of European Jewry during World War II, but this includes soldiers killed in the war (200,000 Jewish soldiers in the Red Army alone) and civilians who perished from war-related causes rather than mass murder (100,000 Jewish civilians in the USSR alone). Jewish deaths from persecution or mass murder can be roughly broken down as follows: a) 800,000 from ghettoization and general occupation b) 2,800,000 in camps c) 1,900,000 in mobile killing operations, by shooting or gas vans d) 5,500,000 in total. Deaths in category a) were not "gassed and burned". They were usually buried in individual graves or in mass graves. Deaths in category c) were sometimes burned but very often not burned; those not burned still lie in hundreds of mass graves throughout the former Nazi-occupied territories, especially those of the former USSR. Deaths in category c) were usually burned (with large amounts of partial remains left behind where the burning occurred in open-air pyres) but not necessarily gassed. For breakdown of deaths in camps see the blog Thomas Dalton responds to Roberto Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis (2). So there is indeed a huge potential for archaeological investigation as concerns the Nazi genocide of the Jews. The problem is that archaeological investigation has only recently been discovered as a means of conducting historical research and enhancing historical knowledge, at least as concerns mass crimes. The Nazis' crimes are not alone in this respect. How much archaeological investigation has been done, for instance, in regard to the victims of Stalin's purges, the GuLag labor camps and other crimes committed by Stalin's regime or other Communist regimes? Not a big deal, as far as I know. That said, I'm in favor of there being more archaeological research in Nazi killing sites. Not because it is necessary to prove the Nazis' crimes, any more than archaeological research is necessary to prove the GuLag Archipelago. But it is important in order to expand historical knowledge about these killing sites, to convey the horror of Nazi mass murder in a more "tangible" form than can be achieved through eyewitness and documentary evidence, and to hit ideologically motivated propagandists of the "where are the bodies" – school where it hurts them most. Recommended reading about the importance of forensic archaeology: Richard Wright, "Where are the Bodies? In the Ground", The Public Historian, Vol. 32, No. 1, pp. 96–107 (February 2010). |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2123 | |
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You show yourself to be ideologically motivated by claiming "Nazi crimes" and the "horror of Nazi mass murder". Do academics claims to be trying to prove Hittite, Egyptian, Assyrian, etc "crimes" when trying to determine if the "documented" and "eyewitness" accounts are accurate? No, in fact academics always view claims of nations war time activities with great caution. And academics always ask "where are the bodies"! That is their job! There job is not to repeat war time propaganda. And it seems that people are claiming that eyewitness testimony is not reliable, in fact people claim that is has been "proven" that eyewitness testimony is not reliable. You show yourself to be ideologically motivated with your added drama in your writings about the "NAZI". If you read the history of warfare will know that all the following were more horrific: - Ancient warfare - described in contemporary document and verified - Medieval warfare - described in contemporary documents and verified - Mongol invasions - described by several of conquered and verified - Bombing of Dresden - described and photographed - Japanese slaughter of Chinese in WW2 - described and photographed - Battle of Stalingrad POW camps - approx. 95% died, much worse the "NAZI" camps. - Huti-Tusti conflict - just search the web In fact, it would be easy to list a hundred, if not hundred of wars in which one or both sides were clearly more cruel then the "NAZI". If you cannot admit this then nobody should waste their time reading what you have to say because you are more concerned not with what science can tell use, but with the political science of propaganda. The only interesting thing about the "NAZI" so called "genocide" is that the "NAZI" for some reason decided to build large housing complex and gave uniforms to people they planed to kill. Housing that me in fact be superior to the housing the in which half of the people alive today live in . Are you really going to claim the "NAZI" where more cruel then the Mongols? Are really going to claim the "NAZI" were more cruel then the Japanese in WW2? We can see CONTEMPORARY pictures of Japanese soldier treatment of Chinese civilians in beheading, raping, sadistically torturing, killing babies, piles of dead babies, piles of heads, burying people alive, etc. But we only get "eyewitness" accounts of German accounts. Why didn't "NAZI" soldiers take pictures of their victims? You can be sure there where likely thousands of times of more camera in Europe then is Asia at that time. There was a time before the Internet and before the book "The Rape of Nanking" was published that most good liberals in America denied what the Japanese did in Nanjing. The liberals would claim that was just the claims of White racist that wanted to make the Japanese look like animals. But of course this cannot be denied anymore? Were the people that did not accept the what the Japanese ever called Nanjing-deniers. Were there any laws every created the you must believe in the Nanjing Massacre? Consider the Nanjing Massacre further, it is claimed that in a six week period the the Japanese killed between 40,000 and 400,000 Chinese and raped between 20,000 and 80,000 women and girls. Can it be claimed that the "NAZI" ever did anything close to this? And look at the ranges of deaths and rapes. You can be sure that Chinese government is pushes the high number, the Japanese the low, and international organizations calculating an intermediate. Why are there now laws or social pressure to force people to believe the higher number? And since it is fact the Japanese were significantly more cruel then the "NAZI" how do we understand the ratios of hollywood movies depicting the photographed Japanese atrocities and the eye witnessed "NAZI" atrocities. Are you sure that you are not confusing the hand drawings and airial photos with hollywood movies? Are you "internalizing" the hollywood movies? Wouldn't all Western academics agree that it would wrong if a Chinese University professor was fired or imprisoned because he wrote a paper that the did agree with the Chinese government official WW2 history? Wouldn't these Western academics lecture the Chinese government on academic freedom and wouldn't humans rights group petition the Chinese government to free the academics. Of course nobody inside China would dare speak in the academics defense for fear of always violating some law that made it illegal to disrespect the deaths of ancestors of the Chinese people. But is the free, democratic, and enlightened West any different? Would human rights groups dare come to the aid of somebody imprisoned for their view on history? Another point, ALL countries lie, produces propaganda, about the enemies before, during, and after wars. Can you name one country did not? Now, most would acknowledge that America lied about Japan. The question is, what lies did America tell about the "NAZI"? Or are you going to claim that the every statement America made about Germany with regards to WW2 correct? And yet another point, can you name one time in history when it was a positive thing when a government made an historical event the law? Or is the "holocaust" the only time in history where history became law was a good thing? "... and to hit ideologically motivated propagandists of the "the holocaust is the law" – school where it hurts them most." |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2124 | ||
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Muley
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Whatcha got for proof muley? |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2125 |
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Caveats: First, to begin the process of claiming the reward, all alleged “proof” must be posted on this forum thread:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5943 Just checked the forum thread and didn't see any proof presented by anyone, much less muley. When asked to present proof, muley asks questionsl instead. Go figure. |
May 13th, 2010 | #2126 | |
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Lets consider your claim:
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Are your thinking yet? And what did they do with the bodies? Put them in the mobile crematorium? Or was the "gas van" also able to cremate the bodies as well. The "gas van" seems to be something out of 19th century science fiction. Now ask yourself; how must does a bullet cost and how much does it take to shoot a bullet. And just picture this scenario in your mind. The German soldier say, ok, you jews jump in the "gas van" we're going to the kosher deli to get some bagels. An hour later the jews are dead, the German soldiers feign surprise, while pulling the dead jews out. Then the German says to another group of jews, hey, you guys jump in the "gas van", we're going to the kosher deli to get some bagel ... Don't you think the jews would figure things out and run away? Obviously the Germans are not going to shoot them because if the could shoot them in a matter seconds, they wouldn't be playing "gas van" all day. As for the 1,900,000 million jews being killed by mobile killing operations. Assume the the number is accurate the and hand full a Germans were actually able to find 1,900,000 jews just hanging out in Eastern Europe and did not hide or run into the forest when the Germans approached. Lets assume are documents are not fabricated after the war. BTW, Are we to assume that these mobile units also buried the bodies? It is fact, that historians assume that everybody body lies about body count. For example, nobody really believe the claims made be generals in the ancient world. It make the citizen happy to hear the soldier killed lots of the enemy. Of course the requirement to bring back a thumb for each kill made lying harder. In fact, American soldiers lied about body count in Vietnam. This makes the generals happy and they want to make the President happy. So is it possible the German who were members of the small mobile killing squads were lying about the number of jews they killed? The answer is a very likely yes. A German soldier in a small mobile killing operation likely had a very time of it during the war. If the claimed to be hundred of thousands their bosses would be happy, Hitler would be happy, and they could continue be part of the small mobile killing operation. If they were not affective on paper the German high command likely shut the operation down and send the members to the Eastern front. And no German wanted to be sent to the Eastern Front. What was the typical German soldiers feeling of the Eastern Front? It was one of almost guaranteed death. Bottom line: it is the historians job to ask "where are the bodies" not be publics. BTW, how do Western's know how many people died in the Soviet Union anyway? |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2127 | |
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Some interesting points: 1) It seems a fact that the Bolsheviks government killed more Christians the Germans jew (even if you accept the hight claim). 2) The Bolsheviks certainly destroyed more Christians churches then German destroyed synagogues. 3) All the German killing were done during war time and they killed jews from foreign countries. 4) All the Bolsheviks killings were done during peace time and all the Christians killed were from Russia but all Americans know about Germanys war time killing of jews. 5) Most Americans, even Christian Americans, seem to have no knowledge of the Bolsheviks peace time killing of Christians. 6) The seems to have never been a movie, documentrary, or TV show about the Bolsheviks killing of Christians while there are thousands about the Germans killing the jews. Now the interesting thing is this: Why is it that there seems to be no attempt to apply the science of archeology to the Bolsheviks killing of Christians or to the Germans killing of jews? |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2128 | ||
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Now, how about quoting some accepted rules or standards of evidence supporting your criteria or what is proof and what is not? Stuff like the US Federal Rules of Evidence, you know. You may understand that it's not you who gets to define what is proof and what is not. And you may realize that much of what you find in rules of evidence is about how to assess what types of testimony. For it happens that, while testimony needs to be assessed with great caution as human memory is fallible, testimony is nevertheless an important source of evidence in criminal investigation, as it is in historical research. When you have quoted accepted rules or standards of evidence that whereby an archaeologist's report with plans and sections and descriptions does not qualify as evidence for forensic or historical purposes, I suggest you apply your standards to the "more horrific" events you mention, which you obviously accept as factual: Quote:
Regarding those events you mention as "described in contemporary documents and verified", I would also like to know how the contemporary documentation is supposed to differ from Nazi documents referring to their mass killing activities, which have been verified by criminal investigators and/or by historians and of which I can show you some, if you're interested. You may also want to tell me which of these events have been examined by in detail by independent courts of justice the way that many Nazi killings have been investigated by the independent courts of justice of the German Federal Republic, where defendants had all the rights of a constitutional state including but not limited to defense attorneys entitled to grill those oh-so-unreliable eyewitnesses at their leisure. Regarding the events you mention as "described and photographed", I would like you to explain how the evidentiary value of photographs of, say, the Nanking Massacre in 1937, differ from the evidentiary value of photographs of Nazi crimes such as, say, those included in my collections Photos from the German East and Photographic documentation of Nazi crimes, many of which were taken by the perpetrators themselves. (Just to cut out the "more horrific" disscussion, I don't consider the Nazis' crimes to be more horrific than those of, say, the Japanese Imperial Army. It just happens that I'm more familiar with the former and haven't come across many ideologically motivated fanatics who deny the latter). As you mentioned the post-Stalingrad POW camps, and as you seem to think so much of photographs as a source of evidence (whereas I see photos mainly as a means of illustrating what becomes apparent from other evidence), do you have any photographs from those camps? In the aforementioned blogs you will find photographs showing some of the about 3 million out of 5 million Soviet POWs who died in German POW camps (vs. about 1 million out of 3 million German POWs who died in Soviet captivity). As to why there are no such gory photographs from the extermination camps where Jews were systematically exterminated by gassing, the reason is simple: the SS guys at those camps were strictly forbidden to take photographs. Not all of them complied with this prohibition, for sure. But even Treblinka's second-in-command Kurt Franz apparently chose not to photograph the gory stuff when taking snapshots for his "good old days" album, perhaps in order to avoid getting into worse trouble if his acting against orders was discovered. He stuck to photographing his buddies after service and his beloved excavators, a possible exception being this picture of an open Treblinka mass grave ("possible exception" because it's not certain that Kurt Franz was the photographer). A Wehrmacht soldier by the name of Hubert Pfoch, who on a train to the Eastern Front encountered a train bound for Treblinka, risked worse trouble when taking the following photographs (featured on the same webpage) at Siedlce railway station: Jews being loaded into cargo wagons People shot before being deported to Treblinka Cleaining up bodies after the deportation |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2129 | |||||||||||||||||
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And my estimate of 1.9 million victims of mobile killing operations is not based on anybody's claims, but on historical research into Soviet demographic data made long after the war. From the blog Thomas Dalton responds to Roberto Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis (2): Quote:
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units matching the contents of such reports renders your conjectures pointless. Quote:
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I wish he were hired to do the same at many other Nazi killing sites. And not only Nazi killing sites - Wright also investigated the Srebrenica massacre, for instance. Quote:
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May 13th, 2010 | #2130 | |
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You seem to think that murdering people in peacetime is more condemnable than murdering people while there's a war going on. I don't see much of a difference between one and the other. As to killing people of one's own country being more condemnable than killing foreigners, international law sees it just the other way round. The Nazis also murdered a great many Christians, by the way - more Christians than Jews actually, according to my comparatively conservative estimate. And what is more, most Christians they killed were Eastern Slavs, and a great many Eastern Slavs hated Jews like you apparently do. Ever thought about that? |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2131 | ||
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As to my old friend Greg Gerdes, still repeating his "show me proof (but I'll never tell you what I'd accept as proof and run away from all your questions like the chicken I am" - baloney under the alias "Pat Little", I have nothing to add to what I wrote in post 2120:
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May 13th, 2010 | #2132 |
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You provide nothing new. Just the same old picture in which it is not even possible to tell if the dead are Germans or jews or any of a number of other nationalities. Show trials are just that. There are movies video the Soviet's German POW camp. And what about the camp's were American imprisoned German POW after the war, what was the death rate there. Read about the POW camps in the American Civil War where about 600,000 people and about 10% of those died in POW of starvation and disease. Look at the picture of those that survived those camps and they look like the jew in German concentration camps. Compare the fatality rate for American POW capture by the Germans those captures by the Japanese.
You say it was against the rule to take picture, then you say the pictures are the proof. The fact is, there are no picture of Germans treating jews in a manor that is even close the the way the Japanese treated the Chinese. The difference between the picture is this: The Japanese are basically taking souvenir war pictures. Here we are raping a chinese girl, here were burying a chinese dude alive, here were are with a pile of chinese dude head freshly cut off, were we are tossing a chinese baby, etc. and of course the standard war time stuff. The German picture, depicted people being shoot and bodies pushed into a hole, maybe civil resistance fighters being executed, people who starved to death or died of disease, civil being hanged for as warning as to what will happen after German soldiers a killed by civilians. That standard war time stuff. The fact is, there does not seem to be one picture of Germans soldiers doing anything that is unusual for a war time. There are no picture of German soldier raping jewess, smashing jew babies, gassing jews, or any other atrocity the German soldier has been accused of. Sure there a picture of lots of dead bodies and lots of dead bodies being put in holes in the ground. Millions of people died and the bodies needed to be buried. And how can be be sure that any pile of bodies found are not a result of of Bolsheviks mass peace time killing like in the Ukraine? It was a war, tens of millions of people died during the war. The issue is here is to get beyond the propaganda and put the whole issue on a scientific foundation. You problem is that you are so obsessed with the "holocaust" and WW2 that you actually think that is somehow special. You need to read much more history and you learn just how cruel war is. If the Germans could just fire bombed jews or dropped an atomic bomb on them, would have made the Germans good like the Americans and British? There are thinkers and believers. Both can be wrong. But a thinker can correct his himself if wrong but a believer is will just spend his time demonstrating his skill to repeat what he a learned. Also, what you don't understand is that once the state threatens in academics with regards to the what the outcome for their research must be ... Nothing more proved that the "holocaust" is a hoax then when the first "holocaust" law was created. Repeal all the "holocaust" laws give all academics full life time immunity for protection of any future "holocaust" laws and lets the scientist do their job. For now that has to be the last word. |
May 13th, 2010 | #2133 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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but no pictures (at least that I know) of slit bellies, heads cut off and stuff like that. So what? What the Germans did was still mass murder. Quote:
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You are invited to sign my Petition to the German Legislator. Last edited by Roberto Muehlenkamp; May 13th, 2010 at 04:48 PM. |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2134 |
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Clearly, the jew readers here are only interested in perpetuating their Big Lie (holohoax).
That bullshit story falls apart when examined closely. Let's see what happens to the jews as their web of lies entraps them. I think there will be some people coming for the money that was stolen in the name of the jew lie. Possibly even blood. |
May 13th, 2010 | #2135 | ||
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Muley
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Whatcha got for proof muley? |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2136 | |
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I suggest you visit the Holocaust Controversies blog, Mr. Healey. There "close examiners" like Carlo Mattogno, "Thomas Dalton PhD" and my old friend Greg Gerdes (the coward who hides behind the handle "Pat Little") are subject to close examination. And guess what happens to their bullshit story. |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2137 | ||
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As to my old friend Greg Gerdes, still repeating his "show me proof (but I'll never tell you what I'd accept as proof and run away from all your questions like the chicken I am") - baloney under the alias "Pat Little", I have nothing to add to what I wrote in post 2120:
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Last edited by Roberto Muehlenkamp; May 13th, 2010 at 05:14 PM. |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2138 |
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All talk of Sobibor can now take place here:
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.p...=1#post1133109 Whatcha go muley? Whatcha waiting for? |
May 13th, 2010 | #2139 | |||
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T.F. Shleb:
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This forum thread is about Treblinka muley. Giot any proof whatsoever about Treblinka? Quote:
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Whatcha got muley? |
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May 13th, 2010 | #2140 | |
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Muley
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Whatcha waiting for muley? |
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