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Old May 12th, 2010 #2121
Tintin
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Quick thought without reading the entire thread. Maybe these questions have been raised before.

It seems that archeologist routinely excavate ancient outhouses and examine the shit found there in.

Consider this:
Archeologist can prove, that 8,000 years ago a small village of a couple hundred people cooked a dear, ate the dear, their stomachs digested the dear, and much of their dear meat components broken down as absorbed into the blood stream, and remainder defecated into a hole in the ground. The shit sat in the hole for thousand years and just by luck somebody found the hole.

How come the techniques used to examine the shit cannot be to find and prove that 6 million jews were gassed and cremated or not, and put in a hole, when everybody know where the holes are and the ash/bodies were put in the hole only 60 years ago.

Think about how many archeologist are there around the world today in remote and inhospitable locations without electricity and protection from the elements digging in ancient toilets trying to figure exactly what the member of a small village cooked, ate, digested and defecated thousand of years ago?

Certainly if they can determine what a few hundred or thousand people ate and shit thousands of years ago certainly they can find the remain of millions of jews that died recently?

Certainly 6 millions dead jews are more important then caveman shit? Right?

How many jew archeologist are today digging all over Palestine trying to determine how the ancient jews lived and died, what they ate, etc thousand of years ago? How many of the jew archeologist are doing this to confirm what the Old Testament is validate? Why not have these jew archeologist sent to the gassing camps and once and for all prove the "holocaust" occurred. Certainly no group would be more motivated and qualified to prove that the "holocaust" isn't a lie that is perpetuated for financial and territorial gain among other things.

Is there some reason to why well established archaeology techniques are not being used to resolve the issue?

Now if archeological excavation have been performed at the gassing camps maybe somebody should create wiki page documenting them and their findings.

Is yet another museum, holiday, NPR/PBS documentary, law, movie, public school indoctrination program, another super rich "survivor" telling his tale, etc. really going to change the minds of anybody?
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2122
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
Quick thought without reading the entire thread. Maybe these questions have been raised before.

It seems that archeologist routinely excavate ancient outhouses and examine the shit found there in.

Consider this:
Archeologist can prove, that 8,000 years ago a small village of a couple hundred people cooked a dear, ate the dear, their stomachs digested the dear, and much of their dear meat components broken down as absorbed into the blood stream, and remainder defecated into a hole in the ground. The shit sat in the hole for thousand years and just by luck somebody found the hole.

How come the techniques used to examine the shit cannot be to find and prove that 6 million jews were gassed and cremated or not, and put in a hole, when everybody know where the holes are and the ash/bodies were put in the hole only 60 years ago.

Think about how many archeologist are there around the world today in remote and inhospitable locations without electricity and protection from the elements digging in ancient toilets trying to figure exactly what the member of a small village cooked, ate, digested and defecated thousand of years ago?

Certainly if they can determine what a few hundred or thousand people ate and shit thousands of years ago certainly they can find the remain of millions of jews that died recently?

Certainly 6 millions dead jews are more important then caveman shit? Right?

How many jew archeologist are today digging all over Palestine trying to determine how the ancient jews lived and died, what they ate, etc thousand of years ago? How many of the jew archeologist are doing this to confirm what the Old Testament is validate? Why not have these jew archeologist sent to the gassing camps and once and for all prove the "holocaust" occurred. Certainly no group would be more motivated and qualified to prove that the "holocaust" isn't a lie that is perpetuated for financial and territorial gain among other things.

Is there some reason to why well established archaeology techniques are not being used to resolve the issue?

Now if archeological excavation have been performed at the gassing camps maybe somebody should create wiki page documenting them and their findings.

Is yet another museum, holiday, NPR/PBS documentary, law, movie, public school indoctrination program, another super rich "survivor" telling his tale, etc. really going to change the minds of anybody?
Interesting thoughts, but it's not like archaeologists have been inactive. Their work so far concerning the extermination camps Chelmno, Belzec and Sobibor is addressed in the blog Mass Graves at Nazi Extermination Camps, among others.

It's also not accurate that 6 million Jews were "gassed and cremated". The figure six million is defensible as the total demographic loss of European Jewry during World War II, but this includes soldiers killed in the war (200,000 Jewish soldiers in the Red Army alone) and civilians who perished from war-related causes rather than mass murder (100,000 Jewish civilians in the USSR alone). Jewish deaths from persecution or mass murder can be roughly broken down as follows:

a) 800,000 from ghettoization and general occupation
b) 2,800,000 in camps
c) 1,900,000 in mobile killing operations, by shooting or gas vans
d) 5,500,000 in total.

Deaths in category a) were not "gassed and burned". They were usually buried in individual graves or in mass graves. Deaths in category c) were sometimes burned but very often not burned; those not burned still lie in hundreds of mass graves throughout the former Nazi-occupied territories, especially those of the former USSR. Deaths in category c) were usually burned (with large amounts of partial remains left behind where the burning occurred in open-air pyres) but not necessarily gassed. For breakdown of deaths in camps see the blog Thomas Dalton responds to Roberto Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis (2).

So there is indeed a huge potential for archaeological investigation as concerns the Nazi genocide of the Jews. The problem is that archaeological investigation has only recently been discovered as a means of conducting historical research and enhancing historical knowledge, at least as concerns mass crimes. The Nazis' crimes are not alone in this respect. How much archaeological investigation has been done, for instance, in regard to the victims of Stalin's purges, the GuLag labor camps and other crimes committed by Stalin's regime or other Communist regimes? Not a big deal, as far as I know.

That said, I'm in favor of there being more archaeological research in Nazi killing sites. Not because it is necessary to prove the Nazis' crimes, any more than archaeological research is necessary to prove the GuLag Archipelago. But it is important in order to expand historical knowledge about these killing sites, to convey the horror of Nazi mass murder in a more "tangible" form than can be achieved through eyewitness and documentary evidence, and to hit ideologically motivated propagandists of the "where are the bodies" – school where it hurts them most.

Recommended reading about the importance of forensic archaeology: Richard Wright, "Where are the Bodies? In the Ground", The Public Historian, Vol. 32, No. 1, pp. 96–107 (February 2010).
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2123
Tintin
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Originally Posted by Roberto Muehlenkamp View Post
Interesting thoughts, but it's not like archaeologists have been inactive. Their work so far concerning the extermination camps Chelmno, Belzec and Sobibor is addressed in the blog Mass Graves at Nazi Extermination Camps, among others.

It's also not accurate that 6 million Jews were "gassed and cremated". The figure six million is defensible as the total demographic loss of European Jewry during World War II, but this includes soldiers killed in the war (200,000 Jewish soldiers in the Red Army alone) and civilians who perished from war-related causes rather than mass murder (100,000 Jewish civilians in the USSR alone). Jewish deaths from persecution or mass murder can be roughly broken down as follows:

a) 800,000 from ghettoization and general occupation
b) 2,800,000 in camps
c) 1,900,000 in mobile killing operations, by shooting or gas vans
d) 5,500,000 in total.

Deaths in category a) were not "gassed and burned". They were usually buried in individual graves or in mass graves. Deaths in category c) were sometimes burned but very often not burned; those not burned still lie in hundreds of mass graves throughout the former Nazi-occupied territories, especially those of the former USSR. Deaths in category c) were usually burned (with large amounts of partial remains left behind where the burning occurred in open-air pyres) but not necessarily gassed. For breakdown of deaths in camps see the blog Thomas Dalton responds to Roberto Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis (2).

So there is indeed a huge potential for archaeological investigation as concerns the Nazi genocide of the Jews. The problem is that archaeological investigation has only recently been discovered as a means of conducting historical research and enhancing historical knowledge, at least as concerns mass crimes. The Nazis' crimes are not alone in this respect. How much archaeological investigation has been done, for instance, in regard to the victims of Stalin's purges, the GuLag labor camps and other crimes committed by Stalin's regime or other Communist regimes? Not a big deal, as far as I know.

That said, I'm in favor of there being more archaeological research in Nazi killing sites. Not because it is necessary to prove the Nazis' crimes, any more than archaeological research is necessary to prove the GuLag Archipelago. But it is important in order to expand historical knowledge about these killing sites, to convey the horror of Nazi mass murder in a more "tangible" form than can be achieved through eyewitness and documentary evidence, and to hit ideologically motivated propagandists of the "where are the bodies" – school where it hurts them most.

Recommended reading about the importance of forensic archaeology: Richard Wright, "Where are the Bodies? In the Ground", The Public Historian, Vol. 32, No. 1, pp. 96–107 (February 2010).
Yea, Yea, Yea, every child in the West is indoctrinated with that stuff. If you have links to site with picture of archeological excavation showing the remains of dead jews, or at least with the teeth and hip bones, which could not be cremated, and the genetic testing to confirm the victims were jews please provide direct links. Airial photos and hand drawing prove nothing. If archeologist told you that he found a new unground housing complex and showed you airial photo of the ground and some hand drawing, wouldn't you ask, why did not not take a picture with a camera?

You show yourself to be ideologically motivated by claiming "Nazi crimes" and the "horror of Nazi mass murder". Do academics claims to be trying to prove Hittite, Egyptian, Assyrian, etc "crimes" when trying to determine if the "documented" and "eyewitness" accounts are accurate? No, in fact academics always view claims of nations war time activities with great caution. And academics always ask "where are the bodies"! That is their job! There job is not to repeat war time propaganda.

And it seems that people are claiming that eyewitness testimony is not reliable, in fact people claim that is has been "proven" that eyewitness testimony is not reliable.

You show yourself to be ideologically motivated with your added drama in your writings about the "NAZI". If you read the history of warfare will know that all the following were more horrific:
- Ancient warfare - described in contemporary document and verified
- Medieval warfare - described in contemporary documents and verified
- Mongol invasions - described by several of conquered and verified
- Bombing of Dresden - described and photographed
- Japanese slaughter of Chinese in WW2 - described and photographed
- Battle of Stalingrad POW camps - approx. 95% died, much worse the "NAZI" camps.
- Huti-Tusti conflict - just search the web

In fact, it would be easy to list a hundred, if not hundred of wars in which one or both sides were clearly more cruel then the "NAZI". If you cannot admit this then nobody should waste their time reading what you have to say because you are more concerned not with what science can tell use, but with the political science of propaganda.

The only interesting thing about the "NAZI" so called "genocide" is that the "NAZI" for some reason decided to build large housing complex and gave uniforms to people they planed to kill. Housing that me in fact be superior to the housing the in which half of the people alive today live in .

Are you really going to claim the "NAZI" where more cruel then the Mongols? Are really going to claim the "NAZI" were more cruel then the Japanese in WW2?

We can see CONTEMPORARY pictures of Japanese soldier treatment of Chinese civilians in beheading, raping, sadistically torturing, killing babies, piles of dead babies, piles of heads, burying people alive, etc. But we only get "eyewitness" accounts of German accounts. Why didn't "NAZI" soldiers take pictures of their victims? You can be sure there where likely thousands of times of more camera in Europe then is Asia at that time.

There was a time before the Internet and before the book "The Rape of Nanking" was published that most good liberals in America denied what the Japanese did in Nanjing. The liberals would claim that was just the claims of White racist that wanted to make the Japanese look like animals. But of course this cannot be denied anymore? Were the people that did not accept the what the Japanese ever called Nanjing-deniers. Were there any laws every created the you must believe in the Nanjing Massacre?

Consider the Nanjing Massacre further, it is claimed that in a six week period the the Japanese killed between 40,000 and 400,000 Chinese and raped between 20,000 and 80,000 women and girls. Can it be claimed that the "NAZI" ever did anything close to this? And look at the ranges of deaths and rapes. You can be sure that Chinese government is pushes the high number, the Japanese the low, and international organizations calculating an intermediate. Why are there now laws or social pressure to force people to believe the higher number?

And since it is fact the Japanese were significantly more cruel then the "NAZI" how do we understand the ratios of hollywood movies depicting the photographed Japanese atrocities and the eye witnessed "NAZI" atrocities. Are you sure that you are not confusing the hand drawings and airial photos with hollywood movies? Are you "internalizing" the hollywood movies?

Wouldn't all Western academics agree that it would wrong if a Chinese University professor was fired or imprisoned because he wrote a paper that the did agree with the Chinese government official WW2 history? Wouldn't these Western academics lecture the Chinese government on academic freedom and wouldn't humans rights group petition the Chinese government to free the academics. Of course nobody inside China would dare speak in the academics defense for fear of always violating some law that made it illegal to disrespect the deaths of ancestors of the Chinese people.

But is the free, democratic, and enlightened West any different? Would human rights groups dare come to the aid of somebody imprisoned for their view on history?

Another point, ALL countries lie, produces propaganda, about the enemies before, during, and after wars. Can you name one country did not? Now, most would acknowledge that America lied about Japan. The question is, what lies did America tell about the "NAZI"? Or are you going to claim that the every statement America made about Germany with regards to WW2 correct?

And yet another point, can you name one time in history when it was a positive thing when a government made an historical event the law? Or is the "holocaust" the only time in history where history became law was a good thing?

"... and to hit ideologically motivated propagandists of the "the holocaust is the law" – school where it hurts them most."
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2124
Pat Little
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Muley

Quote:
You drop your "little challenge with only 5 simple questions" etc… you will answer my aforementioned 18 questions…
This isn’t about answering questions muley, it’s about providing proof:

Quote:
Now that we’re all on the same page, now that we all know exactly what fraudulently alleged 10 “huge mass graves” of Sobibor that we’re talking about, we’re going to make this so simple that even a retarded 4th grader could figure out that the 10 alleged “huge mass graves” allegedly located / proven to exist at Sobibor via “archaeological investigations” aren’t just another example of the jews unconscionable big-lie technique, but a literal jewish conspiracy.

* The NAFH’s – The Final Solution Forensic Challenge TM – also includes the following:

For each one of the 10 fraudulently alleged “huge mass graves” of Sobibor that are proven to contain the remains of at least 100 people (which is just 1 / 100 of 1 % of the alleged mass murder as per sham “skeptical scholar” Shermer’s claims), $100.00 will be donated to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in the names of Michael Shermer AND the person / group / organization which provides the proof that is published in Shermer’s - “skeptic” magazine.

So that’s a total reward offer of - $1,00.00 - for providing the “proof” of the jews big-lies about the 10 fraudulently alleged “already located / proven to exist - huge mass graves” of Sobibor.

Just 100 jews in each “huge mass grave” - Just 1 / 100 of 1 % of the alleged mass murder.

Caveats: First, to begin the process of claiming the reward, all alleged “proof” must be posted on this forum thread:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5943

Second, the “proof” must then be published verbatim and in-to-to in “skeptic” magazine. Third, the published “proof” must be unequivocally endorsed by Shermer, stating that said published “proof” meets his own, “skeptic” magazine’s and the “skeptics” society’s standards of “proof;” i.e. - the same standards that they apply to claims made about aliens, big-foot, etc. Fourth, Shermer may have to answer a few simple questions to ensure that he’s honestly endorsing the published “proof.”

So the $1,000.00 reward offer for the portion of - The Final Solution Forensic Challenge TM that relates to Sobibor is literally in the hands of Shermer himself. What will be accepted as proof by the NAFH will be anything that Shermer endorses as proof, as long as the caveats expressed above are met.

* Again, if you deny the fact that the jews criminally fraudulent claim of locating 10 alleged “huge mass graves” at Sobibor via “archaeological investigations” is a literal jewish conspiracy, then go to:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5943

and present your refutation / answers / proof. After all, you do want to have money donated in your name to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and help put an end to “holocaust denial,” don’t you?

Just how hard should it be to prove - IF - the jews big-lies are actually true?

Whatcha got for proof muley?
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2125
Pat Little
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Caveats: First, to begin the process of claiming the reward, all alleged “proof” must be posted on this forum thread:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5943



Just checked the forum thread and didn't see any proof presented by anyone, much less muley.

When asked to present proof, muley asks questionsl instead.

Go figure.
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2126
Tintin
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Lets consider your claim:

Quote:
c) 1,900,000 in mobile killing operations, by shooting or gas vans
First of all, forget the ridicules claims with regards to "gas vans". That is just so absurd that all the "holocaust" will be declared fraud just based on that claim alone. Ask yourself, how much does a "gas van" cost, host much does it cost to drive a "gas van" from killing location to killing location, how much does it cost to run the "gas van" during the killings, how much time does it take to get the jews in the "gas van", how much time does it take to kill the jew once in the "gas van", how much time does it take to unload the "gas van" of dead jews? Ask yourself, what is the mean time between failure of a "gas van"?

Are your thinking yet? And what did they do with the bodies? Put them in the mobile crematorium? Or was the "gas van" also able to cremate the bodies as well. The "gas van" seems to be something out of 19th century science fiction.

Now ask yourself; how must does a bullet cost and how much does it take to shoot a bullet.

And just picture this scenario in your mind. The German soldier say, ok, you jews jump in the "gas van" we're going to the kosher deli to get some bagels. An hour later the jews are dead, the German soldiers feign surprise, while pulling the dead jews out. Then the German says to another group of jews, hey, you guys jump in the "gas van", we're going to the kosher deli to get some bagel ... Don't you think the jews would figure things out and run away? Obviously the Germans are not going to shoot them because if the could shoot them in a matter seconds, they wouldn't be playing "gas van" all day.


As for the 1,900,000 million jews being killed by mobile killing operations. Assume the the number is accurate the and hand full a Germans were actually able to find 1,900,000 jews just hanging out in Eastern Europe and did not hide or run into the forest when the Germans approached. Lets assume are documents are not fabricated after the war.

BTW, Are we to assume that these mobile units also buried the bodies?

It is fact, that historians assume that everybody body lies about body count. For example, nobody really believe the claims made be generals in the ancient world. It make the citizen happy to hear the soldier killed lots of the enemy. Of course the requirement to bring back a thumb for each kill made lying harder. In fact, American soldiers lied about body count in Vietnam. This makes the generals happy and they want to make the President happy.

So is it possible the German who were members of the small mobile killing squads were lying about the number of jews they killed? The answer is a very likely yes. A German soldier in a small mobile killing operation likely had a very time of it during the war. If the claimed to be hundred of thousands their bosses would be happy, Hitler would be happy, and they could continue be part of the small mobile killing operation. If they were not affective on paper the German high command likely shut the operation down and send the members to the Eastern front. And no German wanted to be sent to the Eastern Front.

What was the typical German soldiers feeling of the Eastern Front? It was one of almost guaranteed death.

Bottom line: it is the historians job to ask "where are the bodies" not be publics.

BTW, how do Western's know how many people died in the Soviet Union anyway?
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2127
Tintin
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Originally Posted by Roberto Muehlenkamp View Post

The Nazis' crimes are not alone in this respect. How much archaeological investigation has been done, for instance, in regard to the victims of Stalin's purges, the GuLag labor camps and other crimes committed by Stalin's regime or other Communist regimes? Not a big deal, as far as I know.
Interesting you brought that up.

Some interesting points:
1) It seems a fact that the Bolsheviks government killed more Christians the Germans jew (even if you accept the hight claim).
2) The Bolsheviks certainly destroyed more Christians churches then German destroyed synagogues.
3) All the German killing were done during war time and they killed jews from foreign countries.
4) All the Bolsheviks killings were done during peace time and all the Christians killed were from Russia but all Americans know about Germanys war time killing of jews.
5) Most Americans, even Christian Americans, seem to have no knowledge of the Bolsheviks peace time killing of Christians.
6) The seems to have never been a movie, documentrary, or TV show about the Bolsheviks killing of Christians while there are thousands about the Germans killing the jews.

Now the interesting thing is this: Why is it that there seems to be no attempt to apply the science of archeology to the Bolsheviks killing of Christians or to the Germans killing of jews?
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2128
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Yea, Yea, Yea, every child in the West is indoctrinated with that stuff. If you have links to site with picture of archeological excavation showing the remains of dead jews, or at least with the teeth and hip bones, which could not be cremated, and the genetic testing to confirm the victims were jews please provide direct links. Airial photos and hand drawing prove nothing. If archeologist told you that he found a new unground housing complex and showed you airial photo of the ground and some hand drawing, wouldn't you ask, why did not not take a picture with a camera?
What archaeologists do and what thereof is available on the web is not necessarily the same, regardless of what the subject of the archaeological investigation was.

Now, how about quoting some accepted rules or standards of evidence supporting your criteria or what is proof and what is not? Stuff like the US Federal Rules of Evidence, you know. You may understand that it's not you who gets to define what is proof and what is not. And you may realize that much of what you find in rules of evidence is about how to assess what types of testimony. For it happens that, while testimony needs to be assessed with great caution as human memory is fallible, testimony is nevertheless an important source of evidence in criminal investigation, as it is in historical research.

When you have quoted accepted rules or standards of evidence that whereby an archaeologist's report with plans and sections and descriptions does not qualify as evidence for forensic or historical purposes, I suggest you apply your standards to the "more horrific" events you mention, which you obviously accept as factual:

Quote:
You show yourself to be ideologically motivated with your added drama in your writings about the "NAZI". If you read the history of warfare will know that all the following were more horrific:
- Ancient warfare - described in contemporary document and verified
- Medieval warfare - described in contemporary documents and verified
- Mongol invasions - described by several of conquered and verified
- Bombing of Dresden - described and photographed
- Japanese slaughter of Chinese in WW2 - described and photographed
- Battle of Stalingrad POW camps - approx. 95% died, much worse the "NAZI" camps.
- Huti-Tusti conflict - just search the web
What archaeological evidence regarding each of these events can you show me, and why do you consider it more conclusive than the forensic and/or archaeological evidence of the mass graves at Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka?

Regarding those events you mention as "described in contemporary documents and verified", I would also like to know how the contemporary documentation is supposed to differ from Nazi documents referring to their mass killing activities, which have been verified by criminal investigators and/or by historians and of which I can show you some, if you're interested. You may also want to tell me which of these events have been examined by in detail by independent courts of justice the way that many Nazi killings have been investigated by the independent courts of justice of the German Federal Republic, where defendants had all the rights of a constitutional state including but not limited to defense attorneys entitled to grill those oh-so-unreliable eyewitnesses at their leisure.

Regarding the events you mention as "described and photographed", I would like you to explain how the evidentiary value of photographs of, say, the Nanking Massacre in 1937, differ from the evidentiary value of photographs of Nazi crimes such as, say, those included in my collections Photos from the German East and Photographic documentation of Nazi crimes, many of which were taken by the perpetrators themselves.
(Just to cut out the "more horrific" disscussion, I don't consider the Nazis' crimes to be more horrific than those of, say, the Japanese Imperial Army. It just happens that I'm more familiar with the former and haven't come across many ideologically motivated fanatics who deny the latter).

As you mentioned the post-Stalingrad POW camps, and as you seem to think so much of photographs as a source of evidence (whereas I see photos mainly as a means of illustrating what becomes apparent from other evidence), do you have any photographs from those camps? In the aforementioned blogs you will find photographs showing some of the about 3 million out of 5 million Soviet POWs who died in German POW camps (vs. about 1 million out of 3 million German POWs who died in Soviet captivity).

As to why there are no such gory photographs from the extermination camps where Jews were systematically exterminated by gassing, the reason is simple: the SS guys at those camps were strictly forbidden to take photographs. Not all of them complied with this prohibition, for sure. But even Treblinka's second-in-command Kurt Franz apparently chose not to photograph the gory stuff when taking snapshots for his "good old days" album, perhaps in order to avoid getting into worse trouble if his acting against orders was discovered. He stuck to photographing his buddies after service and his beloved excavators, a possible exception being this picture of an open Treblinka mass grave ("possible exception" because it's not certain that Kurt Franz was the photographer). A Wehrmacht soldier by the name of Hubert Pfoch, who on a train to the Eastern Front encountered a train bound for Treblinka, risked worse trouble when taking the following photographs (featured on the same webpage) at Siedlce railway station:

Jews being loaded into cargo wagons


People shot before being deported to Treblinka


Cleaining up bodies after the deportation
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2129
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Lets consider your claim:

Quote:
c) 1,900,000 in mobile killing operations, by shooting or gas vans
First of all, forget the ridicules claims with regards to "gas vans". That is just so absurd that all the "holocaust" will be declared fraud just based on that claim alone. Ask yourself, how much does a "gas van" cost, host much does it cost to drive a "gas van" from killing location to killing location, how much does it cost to run the "gas van" during the killings, how much time does it take to get the jews in the "gas van", how much time does it take to kill the jew once in the "gas van", how much time does it take to unload the "gas van" of dead jews? Ask yourself, what is the mean time between failure of a "gas van"?
Those were just about the reasons why gas vans were not very widely used, as pointed out by German historian Christian Gerlach, quoted in my blog Thomas Dalton responds to Roberto Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis (2)

Quote:
It is not possible to establish the number of Belorussian people killed in gas vans. A perpetrator mentioned 20,000 to 30,000 Jews who were murdered in Minsk during his time. In fact the operational conditions in Belorussia led to the large majority of Jews and other victims being murdered not by gas but by shooting. For the gas vans' killing capacity was too low for the killers’ purposes. In one van about 350 to 400 people could be murdered in one day. Most Belorussian Jews, however, died during large massacres in which up to 10,000 people were wiped out within one or two days; with three or four as vans this would not have been possible. Also for the annihilation of transports with Jewish deportees numbering 1,000 people – one of the gas vans' main functions in the GK Weißruthenien - three vans seemed too little, so that a fourth was ordered. For outside operations during extermination actions in the ghettos of the smaller, often remote little towns the gas vans were also not adequate for two reasons: due to the high risk of defects on the bad roads and due to possible partisan attacks. Such outside operations were accordingly rare, especially in the context of anti-partisan fighting. Seldom were the vans from different locations put together, and then only for actions at central places. Besides, other reasons against the use of gas vans were invoked.
Thus the gassing vehicles were primarily used directly at the places where they were stationed, for two tasks: first for the regular emptying of prisons, i.e. for murdering prisoners from labor or death camps (like in the Minsk Shirokaia Street), who had mostly been selected as unable to work, for instance for the murder of 3,000 ostensibly unproductive "bandit suspects" (old people, women and children) from the Polozk area in Trostinez in February 1943, and second for exterminating the Jew transports arriving from central Europe in 1942.
The Nazis introduced gas vans to spare their killers the stress of face-to-face bloodbaths involving women and children day after day, not because they were looking for a faster and more efficient killing method. Gas vans then turned out to be so inefficient that they were mostly dropped. People make wrong decisions all the time. People mess up all the time. So what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Are your thinking yet? And what did they do with the bodies? Put them in the mobile crematorium? Or was the "gas van" also able to cremate the bodies as well. The "gas van" seems to be something out of 19th century science fiction.
The bodies were buried after gassing, in some cases later disinterred and burned in open-air pyres. Drop the rhetoric, it's silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Now ask yourself; how must does a bullet cost and how much does it take to shoot a bullet.
A bullet is certainly more cost-efficient, which is why most of the killing in mobile killing operations was done by shooting, despite the psychological side effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
And just picture this scenario in your mind. The German soldier say, ok, you jews jump in the "gas van" we're going to the kosher deli to get some bagels. An hour later the jews are dead, the German soldiers feign surprise, while pulling the dead jews out. Then the German says to another group of jews, hey, you guys jump in the "gas van", we're going to the kosher deli to get some bagel ... Don't you think the jews would figure things out and run away? Obviously the Germans are not going to shoot them because if the could shoot them in a matter seconds, they wouldn't be playing "gas van" all day.
Your arguments would be more interesting if you could do without the baloney, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
As for the 1,900,000 million jews being killed by mobile killing operations. Assume the the number is accurate the and hand full a Germans were actually able to find 1,900,000 jews just hanging out in Eastern Europe and did not hide or run into the forest when the Germans approached.
The Germans involved were not exactly "a handful" but numbered in the tens of thousands. As to how the Jews mostly behaved, here's what Bach-Zeleswki (SS head of "bandit-fighting" units) wrote, as quoted by Hilberg:

Quote:
Thus the misfortune came about … I am the only living witness but I must say the truth. Contrary to the opinion of the National Socialists that the Jews were a highly organized group, the appalling fact was that they had no organization whatsoever. The mass of the Jewish people were taken completely by surprise. They did not know at all what to do; they had no directives or slogans as to how they should act. That is the greatest lie of anti-Semitism because it gives the lie to the slogan that the Jews are conspiring to dominate the world and that they are so highly organized. In reality they had no organization of their own at all, not even an information service. If they had had some sort of organization, these people could have been saved by the millions; but instead they were taken completely by surprise. Never before has a people gone as unsuspectingly to its disaster. Nothing was prepared. Absolutely nothing. It was not so, as the anti-Semites say, that they were friendly to the Soviets. That is the most appalling misconception of all. The Jews in the old Poland, who were never communistic in their sympathies, were, throughout the area of the Bug eastward, more afraid of Bolshevism than of the Nazis. This was insanity. They could have been saved. There were people among them who had much to lose, business people; they didn’t want to leave. In addition there was love of home and their experience with pogroms in Russia. After the first anti-Jewish actions of the Germans, they thought now the wave was over and so they walked back to their undoing.
Hilberg added:

Quote:
The Jews were not oriented toward resistance. Even those who contemplated a resort to arms were given pause by the thought that for a limited success of a handful, the multitude would suffer the consequences. Outbreaks of resistance were consequently infrequent, and almost always they were local occurrences that transpired at the last moment. Measured in German casualties, Jewish armed opposition shrinks into insignificance. The most important engagement was fought in the Warsaw ghetto (sixteen dead and eighty-five wounded on the German side, including collaborators). Following the breakout from the Sobibór camp, there was a count of nine SS men killed, one missing, one wounded, and two collaborators killed. In Galicia sporadic resistance resulted in losses also to SS and Police Leader Katzmann (eight dead, twelve wounded). In addition there were clashes between Jewish partisans and German forces in other parts of the east, and occasional acts of resistance by small groups and individuals in the ghettos and killing centers. It is doubtful that the Germans and their collaborators lost more than a few hundred men, dead and wounded, in the course of the destruction process. The number of men who dropped out because of disease, nervous breakdowns, or other court martial proceedings was probably greater. The Jewish resistance effort could not seriously impede or retard the progress of destructive operations. The Germans brushed that resistance aside as a minor obstacle, and in the totality of the destruction process it was of no consequence.[…]
Source of quote: Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, student edition, 1985 Holmes & Meier, pages 293-294

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Lets assume are documents are not fabricated after the war.
When you find evidence that incriminating documents were fabricated after the war, please let me know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
BTW, Are we to assume that these mobile units also buried the bodies?
They or whoever they commanded to help them with the burial. Sometimes the bodies were later disinterred and burned, but in most cases they are still lying where they were killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
It is fact, that historians assume that everybody body lies about body count.
Not everybody. The German Einsatzgruppen kept accurate records of their work, as demonstrated in the blogs of the That's why it is denial, not revisionism - series.
And my estimate of 1.9 million victims of mobile killing operations is not based on anybody's claims, but on historical research into Soviet demographic data made long after the war. From the blog Thomas Dalton responds to Roberto Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis (2):

Quote:
As concerns the territories of the USSR within its borders as of 22 June 1941 (the date of on which the German attack began), i.e. including the Baltic Countries, Eastern Poland and Romanian territories annexed by the USSR in 1939/40, the estimates of historian Gert Robel point to about 2.2 million Jews who were still alive on the territory of the Soviet Union in 1945, out of a population of 5.1 million on the eve of the German attack. More recent data mentioned by German historian Hans-Heinrich Nolte (Kleine Geschichte Russlands, page 257) point to a similar result. According to Nolte, there were 5.1 million Jews on Soviet territory on 22 June 1941 (3.1 million in 1939, 1.8 million in the annexed western territories, 200,000 who fled across the Bug from German-occupied Poland), thereof 2.7 million who fell under German rule. Of these 100,000 survived, 20,000 as partisans and maybe 80,000 in concentration camps in Germany, and 2.6 million were murdered. About 300,000 Jews fell as soldiers of the Red Army or succumbed to famine behind the front line, and about 100,000 Jewish children were born during the war, so that at the war’s end there were about 2.3 million Jewish survivors in the USSR and the total loss of life was 2.6 + 0.3 = 2.9 million. Nolte’s figures are mentioned here.
[...]
Mobile killing operations: the overwhelming majority of the about 2.6 million killed from among the Jewish population of the Soviet Union as of 22 June 1941 (i.e. including the Baltic Countries and the territories of Eastern Poland and Romania annexed by the Soviets) fell victim to mobile killing operations. The main positions to be deducted from this figure are about 255,000 from Galicia deported to extermination camps (Sandkühler, Endlösung in Galizien, as quoted in my blog Belzec Mass Graves and Archaeology: My Response to Carlo Mattogno (5,2)), Jews deported from the Bialystok District to Treblinka (about 120,000, according to Yitzhak Arad – I added up the figures for the Bialystok District), and the about 160,000 victims of the Janowska and Maly Trostinets camp mentioned above. Let’s deduct another 150,000 to take account of further deportations to camps from the occupied Soviet territories, even though this number seems too high to me, and we got at least about 1.9 million victims of mobile killing operations in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union, which saw the bulk of such operations.
---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
For example, nobody really believe the claims made be generals in the ancient world. It make the citizen happy to hear the soldier killed lots of the enemy.
They were not much worse that Blood n'Guts Patton, if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Of course the requirement to bring back a thumb for each kill made lying harder. In fact, American soldiers lied about body count in Vietnam. This makes the generals happy and they want to make the President happy.

So is it possible the German who were members of the small mobile killing squads were lying about the number of jews they killed? The answer is a very likely yes. A German soldier in a small mobile killing operation likely had a very time of it during the war. If the claimed to be hundred of thousands their bosses would be happy, Hitler would be happy, and they could continue be part of the small mobile killing operation. If they were not affective on paper the German high command likely shut the operation down and send the members to the Eastern front. And no German wanted to be sent to the Eastern Front.
The bosses were not so stupid as to accepted killing claims unchecked, and comparing death toll reports with eyewitness and demographic evidence as well as Soviet site investigation reports shows that the mobile killing units were mostly not exaggerating. Evidence other than reports of mobile killing
units matching the contents of such reports renders your conjectures pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
What was the typical German soldiers feeling of the Eastern Front? It was one of almost guaranteed death.
I don't think the typical German soldier on the Eastern Front would have liked being compared to the butchers of Einsatzgruppen, police battalions and other murder units, who safely bumped off defenseless people while he was risking his life every day. I'm sure that my uncle would have resented the comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Bottom line: it is the historians job to ask "where are the bodies" not be publics.
Historians have no reason to doubt where the bodies are as concerns the Nazis' crimes, as they also have no such reason as concerns the crimes of Stalin, for instance. But for the reasons I stated before it would be good if historians paid more attention to the work of people like Richard Wright. If you're interested in Wright's article, I can send it to you by e-mail. Here's a photo of the Nazi killing site he excavated at Serniki, Ukraine:



I wish he were hired to do the same at many other Nazi killing sites. And not only Nazi killing sites - Wright also investigated the Srebrenica massacre, for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
BTW, how do Western's know how many people died in the Soviet Union anyway?
You mean only Jews or the whole population? In the former case, the answer comes from German documentation and Soviet demographic data mentioned earlier in this post. In the latter, you may want to read the article Soviet Deaths in the Great Patriotic War: A Note, by Michael Ellman and S. Maksudov.
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2130
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
Interesting you brought that up.

Some interesting points:
1) It seems a fact that the Bolsheviks government killed more Christians the Germans jew (even if you accept the hight claim).
2) The Bolsheviks certainly destroyed more Christians churches then German destroyed synagogues.
3) All the German killing were done during war time and they killed jews from foreign countries.
4) All the Bolsheviks killings were done during peace time and all the Christians killed were from Russia but all Americans know about Germanys war time killing of jews.
5) Most Americans, even Christian Americans, seem to have no knowledge of the Bolsheviks peace time killing of Christians.
6) The seems to have never been a movie, documentrary, or TV show about the Bolsheviks killing of Christians while there are thousands about the Germans killing the jews.

Now the interesting thing is this: Why is it that there seems to be no attempt to apply the science of archeology to the Bolsheviks killing of Christians or to the Germans killing of jews?
It's not that there's no interest, just that archaeology has only recently been discovered as a tool of historical research. Since then it has been applied to both Nazi killings of Jews and the crimes of Communist regimes (you may have heard of the Memorial project in Russia), though not to the extent I would like it to be. But then, Nazi and Soviet crimes are not alone in this respect.

You seem to think that murdering people in peacetime is more condemnable than murdering people while there's a war going on. I don't see much of a difference between one and the other. As to killing people of one's own country being more condemnable than killing foreigners, international law sees it just the other way round.

The Nazis also murdered a great many Christians, by the way - more Christians than Jews actually, according to my comparatively conservative estimate. And what is more, most Christians they killed were Eastern Slavs, and a great many Eastern Slavs hated Jews like you apparently do. Ever thought about that?
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2131
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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As to my old friend Greg Gerdes, still repeating his "show me proof (but I'll never tell you what I'd accept as proof and run away from all your questions like the chicken I am" - baloney under the alias "Pat Little", I have nothing to add to what I wrote in post 2120:

Quote:
Still playing "Pat Little", Mr. Gerdes?

Again, what part of what I wrote in post 2108:

Quote:
Are you now repeating your imbecilic "challenges", etc. as "Pat Little", Mr. Greg Gerdes?

What information about the mass graves at Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka I currently have at my disposal is mentioned in my post # 11879 on the RODOH forum. Most if not all of it should already be known to you.

In my posts nos. 11877, 11878 and 11881 there are 18 questions, 18 out of the hundreds of questions you have run away from on several forums where we have discussed.

I want your answer to each of these 18 questions before I even bother to look at yet another regurgitation of your worn-out "challenges" and NAFH and Skeptic magazine etc. baloney.

And I want that answer from Greg Gerdes, not from "Pat Little" or any other of your sockpuppets. Hiding behind aliases is for cowards.
is too hard for you to understand?

As you seem to be scared shitless of answering just 18 out of the hundreds of questions you have run away from throughout our past discussions, I propose the following program:

1. You drop the "Pat Little" act and repeat your "little challenge with only 5 simple questions" etc. blah, blah under your real name, i.e. as Greg Gerdes.

2. I slap that "little challenge with only 5 simple questions" etc. around your ears, as I have slapped other Gerdian "challenge with simple questions" - baloney around your ears before.

3. Thereafter you will answer my aforementioned 18 questions, plus other questions that may arise in the course of my reply to your latest BS.

Isn't that a generous offer, Mr. Gerdes?

All you'll have to do for me to address your crap is to replace your silly "Pat Little" sockpuppet with your real name, Greg Gerdes.

So come on Greg, stop hiding behind "Pat Little".

Or are you too chicken even for that?
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2132
Tintin
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You provide nothing new. Just the same old picture in which it is not even possible to tell if the dead are Germans or jews or any of a number of other nationalities. Show trials are just that. There are movies video the Soviet's German POW camp. And what about the camp's were American imprisoned German POW after the war, what was the death rate there. Read about the POW camps in the American Civil War where about 600,000 people and about 10% of those died in POW of starvation and disease. Look at the picture of those that survived those camps and they look like the jew in German concentration camps. Compare the fatality rate for American POW capture by the Germans those captures by the Japanese.

You say it was against the rule to take picture, then you say the pictures are the proof. The fact is, there are no picture of Germans treating jews in a manor that is even close the the way the Japanese treated the Chinese.

The difference between the picture is this:
The Japanese are basically taking souvenir war pictures. Here we are raping a chinese girl, here were burying a chinese dude alive, here were are with a pile of chinese dude head freshly cut off, were we are tossing a chinese baby, etc. and of course the standard war time stuff.
The German picture, depicted people being shoot and bodies pushed into a hole, maybe civil resistance fighters being executed, people who starved to death or died of disease, civil being hanged for as warning as to what will happen after German soldiers a killed by civilians. That standard war time stuff.

The fact is, there does not seem to be one picture of Germans soldiers doing anything that is unusual for a war time. There are no picture of German soldier raping jewess, smashing jew babies, gassing jews, or any other atrocity the German soldier has been accused of.

Sure there a picture of lots of dead bodies and lots of dead bodies being put in holes in the ground. Millions of people died and the bodies needed to be buried. And how can be be sure that any pile of bodies found are not a result of of Bolsheviks mass peace time killing like in the Ukraine?

It was a war, tens of millions of people died during the war. The issue is here is to get beyond the propaganda and put the whole issue on a scientific foundation.

You problem is that you are so obsessed with the "holocaust" and WW2 that you actually think that is somehow special. You need to read much more history and you learn just how cruel war is.

If the Germans could just fire bombed jews or dropped an atomic bomb on them, would have made the Germans good like the Americans and British?

There are thinkers and believers. Both can be wrong. But a thinker can correct his himself if wrong but a believer is will just spend his time demonstrating his skill to repeat what he a learned.

Also, what you don't understand is that once the state threatens in academics with regards to the what the outcome for their research must be ...

Nothing more proved that the "holocaust" is a hoax then when the first "holocaust" law was created.

Repeal all the "holocaust" laws give all academics full life time immunity for protection of any future "holocaust" laws and lets the scientist do their job.

For now that has to be the last word.
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2133
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
You provide nothing new. Just the same old picture in which it is not even possible to tell if the dead are Germans or jews or any of a number of other nationalities.
No, pictures don't usually show who the dead are. For that you usually need other evidence, regardless of who the killers and who the victims are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Show trials are just that.
I don't think you can demonstrate that NS murder trials before West German courts were show trials, but feel free to give it a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
There are movies video the Soviet's German POW camp.
As there are photographs and probably also movies of dead Soviet POWs in German camps. To be sure, you don't necessarily see in the pictures that the heaps of naked dead are Soviet POWs. But if you take, say, a picture showing heaps of stripped or half-stripped German dead on the Stalingrad battlefield, you also don't necessaily know what dead you're looking at unless you have other evidence providing the context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
And what about the camp's were American imprisoned German POW after the war, what was the death rate there.
Much lower than in Soviet camps for German POWs, not to mention German camps for Soviet POWs. Unless you believe James Bacque's nonsense, which I don't (I've read the book. It sucks).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Read about the POW camps in the American Civil War where about 600,000 people and about 10% of those died in POW of starvation and disease. Look at the picture of those that survived those camps and they look like the jew in German concentration camps.
Certainly, but that doesn't make Nazi concentration camps any better. And you risk comparing apples with oranges if you invoke a war in which two thirds of all soldier fatalities were due to disease in the camps of their own armies, IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Compare the fatality rate for American POW capture by the Germans those captures by the Japanese.
American POWs were treated quite well by the Germans. Soviet POWs were seen as subhuman scum and treated accordingly, the result being that they died like flies, at a higher rate than American POWs died in Japanese captivity.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
You say it was against the rule to take picture, then you say the pictures are the proof.
No, I don't. I say that pictures illustrate what becomes apparent from other evidence. Where you don't have pictures you have no illustration, but that doesn't mean you don't have proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
The fact is, there are no picture of Germans treating jews in a manor that is even close the the way the Japanese treated the Chinese.
No, the Germans tended to be more "professional" when it came to killing and avoid picturesque cruelties, or at least photographing such cruelties. Hence there are pictures like the following:































but no pictures (at least that I know) of slit bellies, heads cut off and stuff like that. So what? What the Germans did was still mass murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
The difference between the picture is this:
The Japanese are basically taking souvenir war pictures. Here we are raping a chinese girl, here were burying a chinese dude alive, here were are with a pile of chinese dude head freshly cut off, were we are tossing a chinese baby, etc. and of course the standard war time stuff.
The German picture, depicted people being shoot and bodies pushed into a hole, maybe civil resistance fighters being executed, people who starved to death or died of disease, civil being hanged for as warning as to what will happen after German soldiers a killed by civilians. That standard war time stuff.
Systematically bumping off women and children and dumping them into mass graves is not "standard war time stuff", and neither is allowing prisoners of war to starve to death or burning down barns or churches with whole village populations inside, as was done by the Germans in Belorussia (and not only to Jews).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
The fact is, there does not seem to be one picture of Germans soldiers doing anything that is unusual for a war time. There are no picture of German soldier raping jewess, smashing jew babies, gassing jews, or any other atrocity the German soldier has been accused of.
Absence of such pictures from Nazi mass killings would only mean that German authorities frowned upon taking and distributing pictures of the gorier stuff. You may have heard of Max Täubner, a German police officer who was put on trial not for systematically bumping off Jews but for taking gory pictures of the fun he was having. In the judgment against Täubner the following was stated (emphases mine):

Quote:
1. The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against
the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the
Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should
have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of
Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should
be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take
part in the extermination of Jewry himself. Real hatred of the Jews
was the driving motivation for the accused. In the process he let
himself be drawn into committing cruel actions in Alexandriya which
are unworthy of a German man and an SS-officer.
These excesses cannot
be justified, either, as the accused would like to, as retaliation
for the pain that the Jews have caused the German people. It is not
the German way to apply Bolshevic methods during the necessary
extermination of the worst enemy of our people.
In so doing the
conduct of the accused gives rise to considerable concern. The
accused allowed his men to act with such vicious brutality that
they conducted themselves under his command like a savage horde
...

2. By taking photographs of the incidents or having photographs
taken
, by having these developed in photographic shops and showing
them to his wife and friends
, the accused is guilty of disobedience.
Such pictures could pose the gravest risks to the security of the
Reich if they fell into the wrong hands
...
The pictures taken by Täubner were obviously destroyed by order of the Nazi court. So what? Absence of pictures only means absence of illustration, not absence of conclusive evidence that Nazi killing squads did things like smashing babies against walls etc. And please don't offend decent German soldiers by calling those murderers German soldiers. The overwhelming majority of Wehrmacht soldiers didn't take part in mass murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Sure there a picture of lots of dead bodies and lots of dead bodies being put in holes in the ground. Millions of people died and the bodies needed to be buried. And how can be be sure that any pile of bodies found are not a result of of Bolsheviks mass peace time killing like in the Ukraine?
Because of the context of other evidence, like eyewitness testimonies and written reports. You don't expect a crime to be proven solely by photographs, do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
It was a war, tens of millions of people died during the war. The issue is here is to get beyond the propaganda and put the whole issue on a scientific foundation.
Actually that's what criminal investigators and historians have been doing for decades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
You problem is that you are so obsessed with the "holocaust" and WW2 that you actually think that is somehow special.
No I don't. The only reason why I'm interested in the Holocaust is actually that ideologically motivated fanatics denying it are so active on the internet. Take those folks away and my interest in the subject will just about vanish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
You need to read much more history and you learn just how cruel war is.
I've read a lot about war, but systematic mass murder and war are two different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
If the Germans could just fire bombed jews or dropped an atomic bomb on them, would have made the Germans good like the Americans and British?
No, it the Germans had conducted their genocide by fire bombs or nuclear bombs instead of starvation, shooting and gassing it would be genocide all the same. Methods are secondary, as is the presence or absence of picturesque cruelties such as perpetrated by the Japanese at Nanking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
There are thinkers and believers. Both can be wrong. But a thinker can correct his himself if wrong but a believer is will just spend his time demonstrating his skill to repeat what he a learned.
Well, then let's hope for you that you're a thinker and not a believer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Also, what you don't understand is that once the state threatens in academics with regards to the what the outcome for their research must be ...
It's rather far-fetched to assume that historians refuse to peddle anti-historical hate propaganda just because it's criminally prosecuted in some countries. Nonsense is nonsense even if "persecuted", just like facts are facts even if "politically correct".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Nothing more proved that the "holocaust" is a hoax then when the first "holocaust" law was created.
I'm afraid that's just wishful thinking, coupled with perhaps deliberate ignorance of the reasons (like concern about disturbances of the public order by discontented folks incensed by "Revisionist" propaganda and/or about the image of a country involved in genocide that allows denial of genocide) why such laws exist in some countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin
Repeal all the "holocaust" laws give all academics full life time immunity for protection of any future "holocaust" laws and lets the scientist do their job.
Definitely, also and especially to keep anti-historical hate propagandists from claiming that they are poor persecuted darlings and trying to excuse the miserable shortcomings of their "research" with restrictions they claim to be subject to.

You are invited to sign my Petition to the German Legislator.

Last edited by Roberto Muehlenkamp; May 13th, 2010 at 04:48 PM.
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2134
Pat Healey
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Clearly, the jew readers here are only interested in perpetuating their Big Lie (holohoax).

That bullshit story falls apart when examined closely.

Let's see what happens to the jews as their web of lies entraps them. I think there will be some people coming for the money that was stolen in the name of the jew lie. Possibly even blood.
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2135
Pat Little
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Muley

Quote:
You drop your "little challenge with only 5 simple questions" etc… you will answer my aforementioned 18 questions…
This isn’t about answering questions muley, it’s about providing proof:

Quote:
Now that we’re all on the same page, now that we all know exactly what fraudulently alleged 10 “huge mass graves” of Sobibor that we’re talking about, we’re going to make this so simple that even a retarded 4th grader could figure out that the 10 alleged “huge mass graves” allegedly located / proven to exist at Sobibor via “archaeological investigations” aren’t just another example of the jews unconscionable big-lie technique, but a literal jewish conspiracy.

* The NAFH’s – The Final Solution Forensic Challenge TM – also includes the following:

For each one of the 10 fraudulently alleged “huge mass graves” of Sobibor that are proven to contain the remains of at least 100 people (which is just 1 / 100 of 1 % of the alleged mass murder as per sham “skeptical scholar” Shermer’s claims), $100.00 will be donated to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in the names of Michael Shermer AND the person / group / organization which provides the proof that is published in Shermer’s - “skeptic” magazine.

So that’s a total reward offer of - $1,00.00 - for providing the “proof” of the jews big-lies about the 10 fraudulently alleged “already located / proven to exist - huge mass graves” of Sobibor.

Just 100 jews in each “huge mass grave” - Just 1 / 100 of 1 % of the alleged mass murder.

Caveats: First, to begin the process of claiming the reward, all alleged “proof” must be posted on this forum thread:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5943

Second, the “proof” must then be published verbatim and in-to-to in “skeptic” magazine. Third, the published “proof” must be unequivocally endorsed by Shermer, stating that said published “proof” meets his own, “skeptic” magazine’s and the “skeptics” society’s standards of “proof;” i.e. - the same standards that they apply to claims made about aliens, big-foot, etc. Fourth, Shermer may have to answer a few simple questions to ensure that he’s honestly endorsing the published “proof.”

So the $1,000.00 reward offer for the portion of - The Final Solution Forensic Challenge TM that relates to Sobibor is literally in the hands of Shermer himself. What will be accepted as proof by the NAFH will be anything that Shermer endorses as proof, as long as the caveats expressed above are met.

* Again, if you deny the fact that the jews criminally fraudulent claim of locating 10 alleged “huge mass graves” at Sobibor via “archaeological investigations” is a literal jewish conspiracy, then go to:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5943

and present your refutation / answers / proof. After all, you do want to have money donated in your name to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and help put an end to “holocaust denial,” don’t you?

Just how hard should it be to prove - IF - the jews big-lies are actually true?

Whatcha got for proof muley?
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2136
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Healey View Post
Clearly, the jew readers here are only interested in perpetuating their Big Lie (holohoax).

That bullshit story falls apart when examined closely.

Let's see what happens to the jews as their web of lies entraps them. I think there will be some people coming for the money that was stolen in the name of the jew lie. Possibly even blood.
Wishful thinking is also thinking, usually the kind of thinking that Jew-haters and other fanatics excel in.

I suggest you visit the Holocaust Controversies blog, Mr. Healey. There "close examiners" like Carlo Mattogno, "Thomas Dalton PhD" and my old friend Greg Gerdes (the coward who hides behind the handle "Pat Little") are subject to close examination. And guess what happens to their bullshit story.
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2137
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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As to my old friend Greg Gerdes, still repeating his "show me proof (but I'll never tell you what I'd accept as proof and run away from all your questions like the chicken I am") - baloney under the alias "Pat Little", I have nothing to add to what I wrote in post 2120:

Quote:
Still playing "Pat Little", Mr. Gerdes?

Again, what part of what I wrote in post 2108:

Quote:
Are you now repeating your imbecilic "challenges", etc. as "Pat Little", Mr. Greg Gerdes?

What information about the mass graves at Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka I currently have at my disposal is mentioned in my post # 11879 on the RODOH forum. Most if not all of it should already be known to you.

In my posts nos. 11877, 11878 and 11881 there are 18 questions, 18 out of the hundreds of questions you have run away from on several forums where we have discussed.

I want your answer to each of these 18 questions before I even bother to look at yet another regurgitation of your worn-out "challenges" and NAFH and Skeptic magazine etc. baloney.

And I want that answer from Greg Gerdes, not from "Pat Little" or any other of your sockpuppets. Hiding behind aliases is for cowards.
is too hard for you to understand?

As you seem to be scared shitless of answering just 18 out of the hundreds of questions you have run away from throughout our past discussions, I propose the following program:

1. You drop the "Pat Little" act and repeat your "little challenge with only 5 simple questions" etc. blah, blah under your real name, i.e. as Greg Gerdes.

2. I slap that "little challenge with only 5 simple questions" etc. around your ears, as I have slapped other Gerdian "challenge with simple questions" - baloney around your ears before.

3. Thereafter you will answer my aforementioned 18 questions, plus other questions that may arise in the course of my reply to your latest BS.

Isn't that a generous offer, Mr. Gerdes?

All you'll have to do for me to address your crap is to replace your silly "Pat Little" sockpuppet with your real name, Greg Gerdes.

So come on Greg, stop hiding behind "Pat Little".

Or are you too chicken even for that?

Last edited by Roberto Muehlenkamp; May 13th, 2010 at 05:14 PM.
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2138
Pat Little
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All talk of Sobibor can now take place here:

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.p...=1#post1133109


Whatcha go muley? Whatcha waiting for?
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2139
Pat Little
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T.F. Shleb:

Quote:
Roberto's tap dancing gives revisionism a well deserved shot in the arm. His words reveal him to be a . . . . well, a loser.

Gerde's constant thrashing of Roberto must make other exterminationists cringe.

Hey Roberto, got any proof whatsoever?

This forum thread is about Treblinka muley. Giot any proof whatsoever about Treblinka?


Quote:
Now who in their right mind could believe the official story that millions of pounds of evidence were “utterly eradicated” by a layer of soil and couldn’t be detected today with the use of modern archeological / forensic science techniques? Compounding the obvious absurdity that the pseudo “science” of history gives eyewitness testimony more credence than tangible physical evidence (or the lack thereof) is the fact that every single “eyewitness” that helped to “historically” prove the preposterous Treblinka legend was a SHAMELESS LIAR. Don’t believe it? Well then, since Michael Shermer (who is also the president of the “Skeptics” Society and publisher of “SKEPTIC” magazine) has such disdain for real skeptics (i.e. - intelligent / logical people who refuse to share his delusion that millions of jews can magically vanish from the face of the earth without leaving a trace), “SKEPTIC” magazine should be more than willing to publish the results of any scientific investigation that claims to have proven that this asinine pure extermination center legend has been forensically proven to be a fact. Therefore, all one has to do to become an applicant for The Final Solution Forensic Challenge TM reward, is to have said claims / results first published in “SKEPTIC” Magazine. Now, just how hard should it be to prove the existence of just one “huge mass grave” that contains just one tenth of one percent (3,500 pounds of cremated bone fragments or 27,000 teeth) of the alleged mass murder - IF - the official story is true?


Quote:
Lest you think there must be some truth to the alleged Treblinka holocaust (That’s the psychology of the big-lie technique at work) The National Association of Forensic Historians TM presents THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM $10,000.00 REWARD For locating / proving the existence of just one grave that contains just one tenth of one percent of the alleged mass murder.

Whatcha got muley?
 
Old May 13th, 2010 #2140
Pat Little
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Muley

Quote:
Whatever it is that you call "forensic proof" (I guess you mean physical evidence) has been presented, along with much other forensically relevant proof.
So have you submitted it to Shermer / Skeptic magazine yet?

Whatcha waiting for muley?
 
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