Are traditional martial arts styles dead now, with the rise of MMA?

[Igor Alexander]

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

He answer was: "To seek perfection of character."

Which is precisely why I don't recommend that people study these arts if what they want are skills that will be useful in a real fight.

The Asian martial arts, with a few exceptions, have more to do with preserving (and proliferating) Asian culture than they do with practical fighting skills.

[Igor Alexander]

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

Karate-ka (and practitioners of other traditional martial arts) are taught to kill.

Nonsense. You will not find even 1 in 10 martial arts instructors who will agree with you on that point. Most instructors do all they can to discourage such attitudes in their students (though there are, of course, many frauds out there who will gladly take your money to teach you the jealously-guarded secret of the ninja death touch and so on).

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

Boxers waste a good deal of the energy of their punches because boxing does not understand biomechanics as well as it might; use only the top half of their body as a weapon;

See my previous remarks about kicking.

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

are not taught to block/deflect/ride;

I'm not sure what you mean by this; the reason there's such an emphasis on legwork in boxing is so that a fighter doesn't stand there like an idiot taking punches.

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

and are not taught to destroy joints and kill.

Again, what dojo do you attend where they train people to kill? Have you ever actually killed somebody using karate? Have you seen your instructor do so? If not, then how can you claim that karate teaches people to kill?

I'm sure there are a lot of black belts around who think they can kill, just as you occasionally encounter martial artists who claim their chi is so strong they can blow out candles by looking at them. Just 'cause they say they can, doesn't make it so. The Asian martial arts are full of bullshitters and blowhards, whereas it's impossible for a boxer to fake it.

There's quite a bit of concussive power in a boxer's punch. It may not seem like much from the outside, but a boxer's punch can do quite a bit of damage to the internal organs. People die in boxing, even today, with all the rules and safety precautions; how often do you hear of people dying in karate competitions?

Here's some data on boxing fatalities:
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm

According to the chart on that page, over 750 people have died in the boxing ring in the United States alone.

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

As a practitioner of Shotokan karate, if I were to face a boxer on the street I might, for example, do either:
1. A side thrust kick to one of his knees to destroy the joint while I was out of range of his fists; then as he rolled about screaming on the ground finish him off with a reverse punch to the sternum (stops heart), or crush the trachea.
2. Deflect his first punch and move in close in one movement; sweep him; follow him down to break several ribs with a knee and then crush his trachea.
3. Same as step two, but add a knife hand strike to the carotid artery as part of the deflection of the punch. When done with sufficient force, this is in itself generally a killing blow. At the very least it will render your opponent unconscious.
4. Deflect his first punch and go straight to the trachea kill shot.

Sounds good on paper. Unfortunately, an unknown assailant isn't going to give you time to decide which of these four options you're going to go with. He's not going to stand around like some dummy waiting for you to hit him in the windpipe. He might even deviate from the moves you and your partner practiced at the dojo and that won you all those pretty ribbons at the tournament. Hell, you might not even see him coming, and he might get the first punch in; do you think you'll be able to effectively defend yourself when you're half unconscious from his attack? A boxer would because a boxer's used to being punched and his reflexes will take over even when he's dazed.

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

In Shotokan we have a saying: If you have to hit them more than once, you are not training hard enough.

If Shotokan karate is what I think it is, then yes, it might have an edge over other schools. I think the guy who founded that school actually killed a few people in competitions, and lamented the fact that karate was being turned into "a dance" by the other schools.

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

Contrast that with a boxer who lines up to go 10 rounds with someone and win on points, unless he can score a knockout.

Boxing is a sport. I'm not denying that. I just happen to think the experience gained in boxing would be more useful in a real fight than that gained in sports like karate, judo, aikido, tae kwon do, kung fu, etc.

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

Which skill set would you rather possess if faced with a couple of niggers in a dark place?

Boxing.

But then, the wise thing to do if you're being jumped by niggers in an alleyway is to run, no matter how much fighting experience you have.

The only people I've ever heard talk the way you do are young blowhards who haven't had much real fighting experience. If they had, they'd know it's better to back away from a fight they're not sure they can win. Again, that's why I recommend boxing; because it teaches you early on that being punched really fucking hurts. You don't learn that in karate.

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

You cannot judge any fighting system on what you see in the sterile environment of a tournament (or a boxing ring) for which there are rules that prevent the fighters doing serious harm to each other (intentionally, anyway).

Yes, I can judge a fighting system that way. If what I see being practiced in the dojo or a tournament would be of no or little use in a real fight, then it's fair to conclude that studying such a system for self-defense purposes is a waste of time. In real life, no one is going to attack you the way your partner or instructor does in the dojo.

My point again is that people in a boxing ring are trading real punches, real punches that hurt like hell, even though they're wearing gloves; in karate, if someone actually hits another person, it's by accident. Therefore, boxing better prepares people for a real fight than does karate.

MMA is about as close to a real fight is you're likely to see in a ring. There are lots of MMA fighters who are trained in karate, and you know what? Their karate skills are next to useless in a fight where there are practically no rules. To the extent that an MMA fight doesn't take place on the ground (most of them do end up on the ground, which is why so many MMA fighters study Brazilian ju-jitsu or Greco-Roman wrestling in addition to something like boxing or karate), all they do is exchange punches (or grapple to avoid getting punched). If these karate kicks were as badass as you claim they are, then a lot more karate black belts would be winning MMA competitions than actually are.

Again, I think kicking is overestimated by people who think that real fights look like something out of a Bruce Lee or a Chuck Norris movie. Real fights look nothing like that, and the average guy couldn't take two punches from a boxer before he went down.

[Igor Alexander]

Captain Kung Fu:
http://www.tac.tv/captain_kung_fu_vid655

[Derrick MacThomas]

Originally Posted by Igor Alexander

Nonsense. You will not find even 1 in 10 martial arts instructors who will agree with you on that point. Most instructors do all they can to discourage such attitudes in their students (though there are, of course, many frauds out there who will gladly take your money to teach you the jealously-guarded secret of the ninja death touch and so on).

That may be why the Japanese refer to martial arts as practised in the USA as Kentucky Fried Karate. They have contempt for the American approach to martial arts, which they consider to be superficial, disrespectful and ignorant.
I can assure you that true traditional karate is a combat system that has as its objective the killing of your enemy in the most efficient way possible. If you look into the history of karate you will see that was its original intent as the people of Okinowa developed a system with which they could defend themselves against the soldiers and samauri of the Shogun.
There is plenty of sport karate about, which has been sanitised so that it does not frighten the soccer moms who send their children to after-school classes.
To answer your question, yes . . . my Sensei has killed . . . many times. He used to teach unarmed combat in the army and saw plenty of action during his day.
I am also a former soldier and we have compared notes. He is who he says he is.
I have not used karate to kill, but I have crippled a couple of Lebs for life. Side thrust kick to the knee destroys the joint.
It was on a commuter train and they would not leave a white girl alone.
What you have said tells me that you have likely seen only sport karate, not the real thing.
I agree that the movie-style kicks are worse than useless in a real street fight. Kicks have their place, but not as the primary weapon. This is where our tactical approach differs from that of the Tae Kwan Do and Kung Fu people, who rely upon spectacular kicks.
As for full-contact tournaments, you might do well to watch what happens at black belt level in the Japan Karate Association.
There are still rules (no kill blows, no destruction of joints, no eye gouging and no testicle ripping) but other than that there is full contact.
It may change your mind, once you have an opportunity to compare it with Kentucky Fried Karate.

[Derrick MacThomas]

Originally Posted by Igor Alexander

Which is precisely why I don't recommend that people study these arts if what they want are skills that will be useful in a real fight.

The Asian martial arts, with a few exceptions, have more to do with preserving (and proliferating) Asian culture than they do with practical fighting skills.

You understand nothing of the true nature and spirit of martial arts. You know only the outward appearance.
You exhibit a cultural arrogance and ignorance that is so typical of Americans (I assume that you are an American by your attitude).

[George Witzgall]

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

You understand nothing of the true nature and spirit of martial arts. You know only the outward appearance.

martial arts are 99% spirit. form follows as an inevitable consequence.

[George Witzgall]

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

You exhibit a cultural arrogance and ignorance that is so typical of Americans (I assume that you are an American by your attitude).

oh he's a canadian.

[cillian]

mar⋅tial

–adjective
1. inclined or disposed to war; warlike: The ancient Romans were a martial people.
2. of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces: martial music.
3. characteristic of or befitting a warrior: a martial stride.

Origin:
1325–75; ME < L Mārtiālis of, belonging to Mars(the Roman war god), equiv. to Mārti- (s. of Mārs) + -ālis -al 1

art
–noun

7. the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning: the art of baking; the art of selling.
8. the craft or trade using these principles or methods.
9. skill in conducting any human activity: a master at the art of conversation.
10. a branch of learning or university study
12. skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.
14. studied action; artificiality in behavior.
15. an artifice or artful device: the innumerable arts and wiles of politics.
16. Archaic. science, learning, or scholarship.

Any skill or technique that can be use in fighting or war is martial arts, whether it is a punch, block, choke, arm lock, sword stroke, or how to aim a rifle. The whole of a set of techniques such as boxing or kenpo would be more accurately called a fighting style.

Saying martial arts doesn't work is like saying carpentry doesn't work. Some techniques are more useful or versatile than others, but if it doesn't pertain to fighting it isn't martial arts. Like backflips and flashy triple spin kicks or the elements of boxing that are sport oriented, like controlling the ring or 'rope a dope' or scoring points, they are useful in boxing contests but have nothing to do with fighting. Same with all sports oriented fighting systems. Judo for example you get a full point for landing the guy flat on his back - great for a judo contest, but in a fight you would want him to land on his shoulder or better yet his head.

As far as separating the bushido from the fighting moves, it is true that this is more suited to westerners, but it is also why mma fighters are a bunch of wiggers, drunks and juicers (for the most part).

[MikeTodd]

Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas

You understand nothing of the true nature and spirit of martial arts. You know only the outward appearance.
You exhibit a cultural arrogance and ignorance that is so typical of Americans (I assume that you are an American by your attitude).

Your Sensei sucks balls.

[Hugh]

It depends what type of fighting one is preparing for.
Fights also consist of two parts, the fight, and the court case.

MMA is not for most people, its more for those who like to fight and enjoy training, which very few people do.

Most street fights however are between people who know each other, usually only happen because one or both are afraid of looking weak in front of their women or onlookers, and more than three quarters of streetfights only occur when one or more of the people involved are drunk/high.
Usually consist of shouting, pushing and pulling, maybe a few punches and kicks get traded, friends or police intervene, game over.

Don't get drunk, and don't hang out with junkies or aggressive drunks, and you'll reduce your chances of being attacked by three quarters. Prevention is better than cure.

Most really vicious, bloody assaults are domestic violence related, usually following substance abuse. The only answer to avoiding domestic violence is to leave when the person starts drinking etc, and move away as soon as possible. They never change.

For the rest, the real street attacks, the most dangerous are when you get a blacks blood on you, because they will often be riddled with lethal diseases especially STDs, which are just as easily transmitted by blood, and infect you.

If the attacker is on drugs or drunk, run away if possible.
If one can't run away, only taking out their joints, preferably a knee would work, and any art that teaches taking out knees will do.
Junkies and often drunks feel no pain at all, and if they do, it just enrages them and if they are junkies, makes them more desperate than ever, so attacks to muscles, pain etc are meaningless.
These cases usually end up in court, and an effective defence against a junkie is usually a crippling one, in which case you would probably be more severely punished than the attacker.
There are no winners in street fights.

Most other street attackers are not very professional, they have learnt a few good moves, and rely upon surprise, people's fear of being attacked, most people not wanting to hurt other people, and people simply not knowing what to do.
They don't want to fight, they want money and to get away as fast as possible, unhurt.
If they have firearms, well, you should have armed yourself.
Guns don't kill people, bullets do, and you don't argue with bullets over money.

For the very small percentage of mainly gangsters, who fight because they enjoy hurting people, in such cases the victims attitude is usually what wins or loses fights.

If the opponent is not taken down in one or two strikes, its probably going to the ground, and there judo, as well as Wing Chun for knee and elbow strikes, are best.
Systema teaches about balance, leverage and joints, which are key to any good self defence.

Martial arts have enormous value, because they make people fit, strong, quick and co-ordinated, and above all reduce/remove the fear so many have of striking another person.

They also teach people to breathe during a fight, which very few do at the beginning, so they tire easily. Judo is good, because most fights start with pushing or pulling.
Its best if your opponent hits the pavement, rather than hitting you.

Wing chun is great for smaller, lighter people, because almost all its strikes are within the 1 to 2 foot range, and it doesn't rely on strength.
One needs something that will teach the basics in a month or two, without needing to become an athlete, or spend much time, money or too much effort.

The value of martial arts, apart from the great people one gets to meet, is that whatever art it is, it gives people more confidence, and self-confidence prevents most attacks.
Criminals hardly ever attack fit, confident looking people, they attack people alone, the small, the weak, the scrawny types, and usually only when they outnumber the victim three or four to one.
One will hardly ever be attacked by one criminal.
Fit people tend to avoid bars etc, feel, eat and sleep well, and mix with good folks, and by so doing, reduce their chances of being attacked.

Street fighters especially enjoy attacking body builders, because so many bodybuilders are actually not very self confident at all, and hope their size and muscles will scare away an attacker. Muscles mean very little in a fight. Grabbing a couple fingers and breaking them doesn't require much strength.

A small maglite just larger than the fist is great for strikes, but then one cant grab or push properly without losing it.

Steelcapped safety shoes and a lock with a large loop would be good friends.
Hypothetically, if attacked, insert finger through loop,with body of lock in fist.
Should the mugger attack the fist repeatedly with his face, he would voluntarily hit the loop, again and again, and one won't break their fingers or hand.

Practice a few times with it, so the right size and shape lock and loop is obtained, some can damage the hand/break fingers otherwise.

Improvised weapons are not viewed in the same light by courts as purpose designed weapons, if the courts even find out an improvised weapon was used.

Punches should be with the heel of the palm, keeping the thumb close, not the fist, as most peoples fingers today are quite weak, and most folks would break their fist if they hit a bone.
Arts teaching grabbing, pushing, pulling, working with balance, leverage and joints are best.

Some systema

YouTube - Systema pre-emptive work 1

YouTube - Systema pre-emptive work 1

YouTube - What is Systema? Systema Self Defense Mega clip

YouTube - What is Systema? Systema Self Defense Mega clip

but attitude is always the most important factor when working with crowds

YouTube - British Self Defense

YouTube - British Self Defense

[COTW]

Good post Hugh! Your last vid was a hoot, "I wanna see windmills" lol.

I'd like to add this video for what it's worth.

YouTube - Bas Rutten Lethal self defence

YouTube - Bas Rutten Lethal self defence

[MikeTodd]

Good post Hugh! Your last vid was a hoot, "I wanna see windmills" lol.

I'd like to add this video for what it's worth.

Good stuff!
That's what I call Can-O-Whupass (country style).
And he didn't even need to wear some silly ass gook pajamas either. Lol!
("I'm sorry...I'm sorry...NO, I'M NOT!" !POW!)
Fuck you, Grasshopper! LOL!

[Mr Murray]

Ah, the good old "my martial art is better than yours" thread.

It's up there with the "which is the better gun: AK-47 or AR-15?" and "who won WWII: UK or USA?" arguments.

Always good for a laugh.

[Myles]

I took Wing Chun for about a year from a guy who claimed a direct teaching lineage from Yip Man (the guy who trained Bruce Lee). One day I was reading about it in a book store when I ran across some information on Yip Man that stated he never taught the art to Westerners; he thought it was a treasure of China and it should remain that way. I learned I'd been lied to and never returned to the studio. Shortly after that I joined a boxing club.

Wing Chun is pretty much useless in a real fight. Put on a pair of boxing gloves and start sparring with a Wing Chun practitioner. He'll abandon his techniques after a couple of punches.

That being said, it does teach straight punching and the Lop Sao exercises are excellent for developing sensitivity and hand speed.

YouTube - Fast Punches

YouTube - Fast Punches

[Hugh]

Wing Chun practiced by 5 foot, 50kg yellow men is at one level.
Wing Chun practiced by six foot 200 pounders, is on a completely different level

Some Wing Chun applications

YouTube - Wing Tsun, Karate, Kung Fu - victor_gutierrez

YouTube - Wing Tsun, Karate, Kung Fu - victor_gutierrez

YouTube - Wing Tsun - Victor Gutierrez 1/6

YouTube - Wing Tsun - Victor Gutierrez 1/6