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Old September 16th, 2011 #1
RickHolland
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Default Fascism Is Not Conservatism

Quote:
Someone recently emailed and asked me to rebut the claim that fascism is a right-wing system.

I have given this question considerable thought over the years; even when I was in college, liberals routinely smeared conservatism as a fascist political ideology. Indeed, how many times have we heard the mantra that communism and Nazism represented the two extremes of the political spectrum, left and right, respectively? This never made sense to me, as I knew that conservatism championed political and economic liberty and that communism and fascism were the direct antithesis of these.

I am thankful that my friend Jonah Goldberg has written the definitive work on this subject and set the record straight, in his scholarly and entertaining "Liberal Fascism." I strongly recommend it.

But let me share some thoughts I've developed over the years as to how the misunderstandings on these terms evolved, points which may or may not be addressed in Jonah's book.

Both communism and Nazism are evil totalitarian systems characterized by enormous power in the central government. It's true that in theory, Karl Marx predicted the eventual withering away of the state and the "dictatorship of the proletariat," when the people would rule, which was sheer fantasy because it was based on grossly erroneous assumptions about human nature, as history would repeatedly demonstrate.

But no one can deny that communism, in practice as well as theory, is a form of socialism, as evidenced, among other things, by the Soviet Union's proud self-identification as a "socialist republic." Likewise, Nazism and fascism, by definition, are socialist systems, with the state owning or controlling the major means of industry and production.

But there are differences in these systems, and I think these differences, along with historical reasons so well chronicled in Jonah's book, contribute to the left's soft identification with one and strong rejection of the other.

Apart from being centralized political systems, Nazism and fascism were nationalistic, patriotic and militaristic. Some have even said they were religious, but I see little authentic evidence of that. The Soviet system was more international in its orientation, being driven less by national fervor and more by world expansion. I'm not disputing that Hitler and Mussolini were expansionist, as indeed they were, but the Soviets were more focused on making communism a global system and diminishing the role of the nation-state in comparison with Nazism and fascism.

But there's something even more telling. Communism, as conceived by Marx, was based on the perceived class struggle. Marx envisioned that the "workers of the world" would unite against so-called capitalist oppression. Marxism was thoroughly materialistic and rooted in class warfare. Nazism was probably not so virulently anti-capitalist -- at least in terms of its ideological emphasis. It was more racially and nationally driven.

So where does that leave us? Well, today's liberals see themselves as champions of the "working man" and enemies of corporate interests and the wealthy. Their political lifeblood is class warfare on behalf of the "working man" (read: labor unions). Redistributionism is at the heart of their philosophy.

When those on the left today call conservatives "fascists" or liken Bush to Hitler, they are betraying their contempt for what they perceive to be excessive nationalism, patriotism and militarism on the part of conservatives. But there's a darker side to their thinking. The left's worst-kept secret is that many liberals believe -- or would at least like the electorate to believe -- that conservatives are racist. So there you have it. Conservatives are nationalistic, jingoistic and racist. Point, set, match. They're fascists.

But it's as divorced from reality as it is sinister. Conservatives are driven by liberty and a healthy skepticism for centralized government. They aren't enemies of the federal government but believe it ought to be limited in its powers and scope, as contemplated and designed by the Constitution. They are the opposite of racists, aspiring to colorblindness and equality of opportunity and rights for everyone. We will proudly accept, however, the charge that we are nationalistic, patriotic and firm believers in American exceptionalism.

Liberals can definitely identify with communism, as indeed they have through the years, as in their glorification of the Soviet Union in years past and their romanticizing of communist dictators, such as Cuba's Fidel Castro. But they also have far more in common with fascism than conservatives do, given their penchant for centralized governmental power and too much state control over business and industry, as we've seen most strikingly under President Barack Obama.

As political theory and actual practice throughout history demonstrate, both communism and fascism are left-wing political and economic ideologies -- as far as they can be from the right wing of the spectrum.
http://patriotpost.us/opinion/david-...-conservatism/
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Old September 16th, 2011 #2
Hunter Morrow
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Oh, did he now? The author got a run down on the finer points of Mussolini's government and fascism and Hitler's government and national-socialism from somebody named Jonah Goldberg.

I'm new to the game but at least I know better than to ask a National Review
contributor named Jonah Goldberg to give it to me straight with regards to Mussolini and Hitler.

Jewnah Goldberg, everybody. He looks like the infinitely slappable lovechild of Kevin Smith and Mick Foley.

 
Old September 16th, 2011 #3
Mike in Denver
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The definition of what Fascism is varies from one academic weenie to another. Usually it is said to mean a political-economic system where a coalition of big-government and big-business runs everything. The biggest problem with this is since business has all the money and politicians want money you end up with no coalition at all. You end up with a country that solely serves the interests of big-business. That's what we have here in the US. Everyone not in the financial or political world is livestock.

Nazism is pretty much impossible to define. As far as we know it's only existed once...now it's gone. Hitler did some stuff with banking and money creation. Seemed to work. Who knows what's mythology and what's truth.

Conservatism means one thing to one person, another thing to another person. By observation I'd say most conservatives are decent types with little grounding in observed reality.

Libertarianism is interesting but belongs in fantasy world. Thinking that the invisible hand of the market is going to float down and make life good for people is exactly the same as believing that Gandalf and Elrond are going to ride down from Rivendale and wave magic wands to make things good. The market is a blind mouse in a maze. It goes down the path that smells most like cheese. And more often than not, for the ordinary bloke -- that sucks. But to be fair, in a really White world it would probably work best. Trouble is, thinking that we will ever have a really White world is magic thinking, too.
--

We need to focus more on reality -- harsh or not. Minus the magic thinking, the demographics (race and aging population) favor eventually ending up in a watered-down Bolshevik world. Get used to it.

Oh! And watered-down Bolshevik world, is the optimistic possibility. We may end up in far worse, a pure Leo-Straussian, Zionist monster world. Gods help us. We'd better hope that the Bolshevikis get pissed-off enough at their Straussian cousins so we can at least live in what they call liberal socialism.

Get used to it, folks.

Mike

Reply: How dare you be so defeatist?

Answer: Yep! Reality sucks, maybe Gandalf and Elrond will ride down from Rivendale and wave magic wands.
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Old September 26th, 2011 #4
RickHolland
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Quote:
Someone recently emailed and asked me to rebut the claim that fascism is a right-wing system.
Fascism like Socialism is a very manipulated term.

Sometimes is used to define the repression of the left other times is used to define the repression of the right.

But the true Fascism is the Italian Fascism.


Quote:
I have given this question considerable thought over the years; even when I was in college, liberals routinely smeared conservatism as a fascist political ideology. Indeed, how many times have we heard the mantra that communism and Nazism represented the two extremes of the political spectrum, left and right, respectively? This never made sense to me, as I knew that conservatism championed political and economic liberty and that communism and fascism were the direct antithesis of these.
National Socialism was a prohibited term in the Soviet Union because they didn't want any confusion or contamination of their own version of Socialism so they always called it a Fascist political ideology.

I also never bought that story that communism and Nazism represented the two extremes of the political spectrum, left and right, respectively.

Conservatism doesn't champion political and economic liberty.

Conservatives want to conservate something like the elite status quo, religion, capitalism, democrazy ...

Conservatives are resistant to change and what we have now isn't worth of conservation.


Quote:
Both communism and Nazism are evil totalitarian systems characterized by enormous power in the central government. It's true that in theory, Karl Marx predicted the eventual withering away of the state and the "dictatorship of the proletariat," when the people would rule, which was sheer fantasy because it was based on grossly erroneous assumptions about human nature, as history would repeatedly demonstrate.
Evil like Satan?

No political ideology is inherently "evil".

It is the humankind that do "evil" things.

I think we already live in a totalitarian regime with enormous power in the central government.

Doesn't matter how you call it, because the dictatorship and repression of the weak by the installed powers are always present because of the human nature (greed and power).


Quote:
But no one can deny that communism, in practice as well as theory, is a form of socialism, as evidenced, among other things, by the Soviet Union's proud self-identification as a "socialist republic." Likewise, Nazism and fascism, by definition, are socialist systems, with the state owning or controlling the major means of industry and production.
NS Socialism and Communist Socialism are two different types of Socialism.

National Socialists aren't so inspired by the class strugle of Marxian Socialism like the Communists are.

Even the Communism in Soviet Union evolved for example some communists don't consider the Stalinist period a true form of communism because it was too "Fascist" (national communism).

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/haken32.htm

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.co...ftist/id9.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerated_worker's_state


Quote:
Apart from being centralized political systems, Nazism and fascism were nationalistic, patriotic and militaristic. Some have even said they were religious, but I see little authentic evidence of that. The Soviet system was more international in its orientation, being driven less by national fervor and more by world expansion. I'm not disputing that Hitler and Mussolini were expansionist, as indeed they were, but the Soviets were more focused on making communism a global system and diminishing the role of the nation-state in comparison with Nazism and fascism.
While Germany (National Socialism) and Italy (Fascism) wanted to expand their national territories, the communists wanted a world revolution with a unified world under the communist political/economic system.

That is why communists targeted Russia as it was a big and powerful country wich could be a trojan horse to change the political system in Europe (specially the 'monarchistic, reactionary agitation') and spread the communist revolution to the rest of the World.

World_revolution World_revolution


Quote:
But there's something even more telling. Communism, as conceived by Marx, was based on the perceived class struggle. Marx envisioned that the "workers of the world" would unite against so-called capitalist oppression. Marxism was thoroughly materialistic and rooted in class warfare. Nazism was probably not so virulently anti-capitalist -- at least in terms of its ideological emphasis. It was more racially and nationally driven.
Karl Marx lived in the age of Nationalism and Racialism.

Karl Marx "workers of the world" united against capitalist oppression also was racially and nationally driven.

The reason why the Soviet version of Communism was always known as "Marxism-Leninism" is of course that Lenin "developed" Marxist doctrine in various ways.

Although Marx and Engels were great advocates for the working class, they were also antisemitic German nationalists who took a very dim view of Russians.

Lenin concentrated on the first part of Marxism and, understandably, largely ignored the latter. So when Lenin said: "it is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people" but "the capitalists of all countries", it was to a degree Marx himself whom he was critcizing.

National Socialism was anti-capitalist but they weren't against the private property or against mercantilism.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...077413,00.html


Quote:
So where does that leave us? Well, today's liberals see themselves as champions of the "working man" and enemies of corporate interests and the wealthy. Their political lifeblood is class warfare on behalf of the "working man" (read: labor unions). Redistributionism is at the heart of their philosophy.
These Neo-Marxists, the corporate interests and the wealthy (all of them are internationalists) stabbed the white nations working class in the back.


Quote:
When those on the left today call conservatives "fascists" or liken Bush to Hitler, they are betraying their contempt for what they perceive to be excessive nationalism, patriotism and militarism on the part of conservatives. But there's a darker side to their thinking. The left's worst-kept secret is that many liberals believe -- or would at least like the electorate to believe -- that conservatives are racist. So there you have it. Conservatives are nationalistic, jingoistic and racist. Point, set, match. They're fascists. But it's as divorced from reality as it is sinister.

Conservatives are driven by liberty and a healthy skepticism for centralized government. They aren't enemies of the federal government but believe it ought to be limited in its powers and scope, as contemplated and designed by the Constitution. They are the opposite of racists, aspiring to colorblindness and equality of opportunity and rights for everyone. We will proudly accept, however, the charge that we are nationalistic, patriotic and firm believers in American exceptionalism.
There are many types of conservatism but they all have a patriotic, bourgeois, coward nature.

The only conservatives that are half decent are conservative-nationalists like Salazar or Franco, the rest are pure trash.

When it comes to destroying our countries and the white race, conservatives are just as 'good' as liberals.

Parties like the Republicans and the Tories and politicians like David Cameron or Nicolas Sarkozy have done nothing to arrest the decline of our societies because they ultimately share the same radical, anti-traditional principles of the Left.

For evidence, look no further than Britain’s rapid transformation into a crime-ridden, multicultural surveillance state.

Internationalists can have a liberal (left) or a conservative (right) flavour but they are two faces of the same coin.

They both follow Jewish ideologies (Capitalism, Bolshevism, Christian Zionism ...) and many of their treasenous Judaized followers aren't ethnic Jews.


Quote:
Liberals can definitely identify with communism, as indeed they have through the years, as in their glorification of the Soviet Union in years past and their romanticizing of communist dictators, such as Cuba's Fidel Castro. But they also have far more in common with fascism than conservatives do, given their penchant for centralized governmental power and too much state control over business and industry, as we've seen most strikingly under President Barack Obama.
It depends ...

I think that revolutionary nationalism have more things in common with conservative nationalism than with International Marxism.


Quote:
As political theory and actual practice throughout history demonstrate, both communism and fascism are left-wing political and economic ideologies -- as far as they can be from the right wing of the spectrum.
Fascism is left-wing in the nationalist part of the spectrum (Revolutionary Nationalism) and Communism is left-wing in the internationalist part of the spectrum (International Marxism).

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Old September 27th, 2011 #5
Chip Farley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike in Denver View Post
The definition of what Fascism is varies from one academic weenie to another.
The best definition in my mind is fascism =
Palingenetic_ultranationalism Palingenetic_ultranationalism

Quote:
Nazism is pretty much impossible to define.
Uh?

Just read the official publications of National Socialists (Mein Kampf and Myth of the 20th Century being the two best examples) and one will get a pretty good idea.





Quote:
As far as we know it's only existed once...now it's gone.
Many National Socialists claimed that Ancient Sparta was the first National Socialist state! Also Uncle Adolf himself stated once that Martin Luther was the first National Socialist! The political ideology has existed in other times and places, it just had not been explicitly defined as such!
 
Old September 27th, 2011 #6
cillian
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"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini

"The keystone of the Fascist doctrine is its conception of the State, of its essence, its functions, and its aims. For Fascism the State is absolute, individuals and groups relative." - Benito Mussolini


And he would know a thing or two about the subject.
 
Old October 1st, 2011 #7
RickHolland
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I think that every political ideology can be used in a democratic or totalitarian way.

Is is true that Fascism wasn't particularly anti-semitic but Fascism is a nationalist ideology.

National_Fascist_Party National_Fascist_Party

Manifesto_of_Race Manifesto_of_Race


"[When the] city dies, the nation — deprived of the young life, [the] blood of new generations — is now made up of people who are old and degenerate and cannot defend itself against a younger people which launches an attack on the now unguarded frontiers. . . . This will happen, and not just to cities and nations, but on an infinitely greater scale: the whole White race, the Western race can be submerged by other coloured races which are multiplying at a rate unknown in our race."

—Benito Mussolini, 1928

Griffen, Roger (ed.). Fascism. Oxford University Press, 1995. Pp. 59.



"Fascism would like to be conservative, but it will [be] by being revolutionary."

-Angelo Oliviero Olivetti


The First World War (1914–18) inflated Italy’s economy with great debts, unemployment (aggravated by thousands of demobilised soldiers), social discontent featuring strikes, organised crime, and anarchist, Socialist, and Communist insurrections. When the elected Italian Liberal Party Government could not control Italy, the Fascist Revolutionary Party (FRP) Leader Benito Mussolini took matters in hand, combating those societal ills with the Blackshirts, paramilitary squads of Great War veterans and ex-socialists; Prime Ministers such as Giovanni Giolitti allowed the Fascist’s taking the law in hand.

The Liberal Government preferred Fascist class collaboration to the Communist Party of Italy’s bloody class conflict, should they assume government, as had Lenin’s Bolsheviks in the recent Russian Revolution of 1917.

The Manifesto of the Fascist Struggle (June 1919) of the FRP presented the politico-philosophic tenets of Fascism; it included [B]women's suffrage, a minimum wage, an eight-hour workday, and reorganisation of public transport. Appeasing its initially strong feminist wing, the Fascist party actually bowed in November 1925, allowing the introduction of limited women's suffrage, much to the dismay of Fascist feminists.

The March on Rome coup d’ État: Mussolini and the PNF paramilitary Blackshirts, October 1922.

By the early 1920s, popular support for the Fascist Revolutionary Party’s fight against Bolshevism numbered some 250,000 people. In 1921, the Fascisti (Fascists) metamorphosed into the National Fascist Party, and achieved political legitimacy when Benito Mussolini was elected to the Chamber of Deputies in 1922.

Although the Liberal Party retained power, the governing prime ministries proved ephemeral, especially that of the fifth Prime Minister Luigi Facta, whose government proved vacillating. To depose the weak parliamentary democracy, Deputy Mussolini (with military, business, and liberal right-wing support) launched the PNF March on Rome (27–29 October 1922) coup d’État, to oust Prime Minister Facta, and assume the government of Italy, to restore nationalist pride, re-start the economy, increase productivity with labor controls, remove economic business controls, and impose law and order.

On 28 October, whilst the “March” occurred, King Victor Emmanuel III withdrew his support of Prime Minister Facta, and appointed PNF Leader Benito Mussolini as the Sixth Prime Minister of Italy. the March on Rome became a victory parade, the Fascists believed their success was revolutionary and traditionalist.

Italian Fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The manifesto (published in "Il Popolo d'Italia" on June 6, 1919) is divided into four sections, describing Fascist objectives in political, social, military and financial fields.

Politically, the manifesto calls for:

Universal suffrage polled on a regional basis, with proportional representation and voting and electoral office eligibility for women;

Proportional representation on a regional basis;

Voting for women (which was opposed by most other European nations);

Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector;

The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown);

The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers (this concept was rooted in corporatist ideology and derived in part from Catholic social doctrine).

In labour and social policy, the manifesto calls for:

The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;

A minimum wage;

The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;

To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;

Reorganisation of the railways and the transport sector;

Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;

Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

In military affairs, the manifesto advocates:

Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;

Armaments factories are to be nationalised;

A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.

In finance, the manifesto advocates:

A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);

The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;

Revision of all contracts for military provisions;

The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

The manifesto thus combined elements of contemporary democratic and progressive thought (franchise reform, labour reform, limited nationalisation, taxes on wealth and war profits) with corporatist emphasis on class collaboration (the idea of social classes existing side by side and collaborating for the sake of national interests; the opposite of the Marxist notion of class struggle).

Fascist manifesto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Old October 1st, 2011 #8
RickHolland
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Revolution is a process it can be violent or not, it can be spiritual, intellectual and/or material.

National Socialism, though a revolutionary movement, evolved as a regular political party NSDAP with a complete organization of its own, until, it came to power.

National Socialism was a revolutionary movement because it had a concept of progress and was "determined" to change society and the individual to a degree never before attempted nor realized (“spiritual revolution”).

"These burningly patriotic lads went through the hell of a losing war, culminating in crushing defeat. Then their abased spirits were given a savage tonic by joining the Free Corps formed to combat the attempt at a "Spartakist" [Communist] revolution. Joyously, they killed Communists for a while.

After that, some of them tried to go to college or into business; but few of them could adapt themselves to the life of the Weimar republic which they hated and despised. Some of them went abroad, adventuring; the rest sulked and brooded until their ears heard a sudden trumpet-call.

Until they hear the National Socialist call: Deutschland, Erwache! "Germany, Awake!" They listened to Adolf Hitler's oratory which stressed all the longings of their embittered hearts and they were conquered by his hypnotic speeches. Into the ranks of the Storm-Troops they went, with additional years of fighting as they killed more Communists and "mastered the streets." Then, at last, victory -- and undisputed power."

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n5p50_Stoddard.html


National Socialism usually is not accepted as a revolutionary movement because the term “revolution” is reserved, as for instance by Camus and De Felice, for ideologies and political movements in the tradition of the Enlightenment and the French Revolution: progressivism, positivism, communism, anarchism.

National Socialism, on the other hand, is placed in the tradition of nationalistic and racist ideologies whose sources are found in German Romanticism and the Nationalism of the Napoleonic era. Numerous scholars have investigated this tradition; they all put emphasis on its irrationalism, racist nationalism and antimodernism in contrast to the rationalism, universalism and belief in progress of “true” revolutionary movements, and therefore classify it as reactionary and regressive.



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