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Old December 2nd, 2003 #1
SMG3000
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Default .45 versus .9mm

I own a single firearm, a .38 special revolver with five chambers. I bought it new and have outfitted it with various ammo. A few 158 grain with a couple pre-fragmented "MagSafe" and some plus-p hollow points.
Basically I considered concealability and price.

I plan on getting a second pistol at some point, either before or after I get a decent shotgun or rifle.

The guy at a local gun range seemed to know the ins and outs of guns and ammo and he stated that a 9mm can serve as well as a .45 for the simple fact that today's ammo evens out the performance issue.
Considering that most 9mm handguns are less pricey than .45 calibers, I was very interested in this claim. Frankly price IS a big issue with me. I was actually looking at this .45: http://www.taurususa.com/products/pr...ategory=Pistol
which seems like a good deal.
Also how about this 9mm http://www.taurususa.com/products/pr...ategory=Pistol
Again, price is a big consideration. If I use those expensive MagSafe pre-fragmented ammo in the 9mm, that should be a pretty damn powerful weapon. According to the MagSafe company, the .38 pre-fragmented travel at 1,800 feet per second, with a 469 ft-lbs impact force. It claims to have a deadlier wound channel than any .40 cal JHP ammo you can buy. The larger caliber rounds are respectively more powerful.
I just can't throw money around.

Another consideration is that I do not have a distance weapon. At the local gun shop I can get a used AK-47 for about 525. These are the ones that can handle magazines of 30 rounds or more. The ones limited to 10-shot magazines are about 80 dollars less.
On the other hand, perhaps I'd be more in need of a shotgun.
What am I mostly likely to need- a backup handgun or an AK-47? Maybe a shotgun?
Perhaps someone would like to wire me a couple thousand dollars...

Last edited by SMG3000; December 2nd, 2003 at 10:20 PM.
 
Old December 3rd, 2003 #2
tacitus
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Default 9mm handguns

9mm handguns are superior in my opinion. There are two reasons for this. Larger magazine capacity, and velocity. In simple terms the 9mm is much faster than the .45. Remember, speed kills. One hears alot of stuff about "knock down" power. This is only important if you are using a single shot gun. You have 9 more or 14 more (in a pre ban magazine) to fire at the threat. For home defense however, nothing and I mean nothing beats a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. Some people like rifles and pistols but the rounds from these can penetrate walls and possibly kill innocent by-standers. Your best bet is the shotgun. preferably, 12 gauge, with a short barrel. Check out www.maverickarms.com they are a subsidiary of Mossberg. The model 88(if you can believe it.) sells for about 200 hundred bucks. You won't find a better street howitzer for the money.
 
Old December 3rd, 2003 #3
Franco
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Being an amateur gunsmith, I can address this issue pretty well.

If you can afford a .45, get it. One shot from a .45 equals two from a 9mm. Use round hollow-points, NOT flat ones. Copper-jacketed only.

As far as a long gun, get a Mini-14 or a Mini-30 in stainless steel. Yeah, I know that you cannot get many parts for a Mini. You don't need to. They are built like tanks. Who cares?

Shotguns have no range. Forget them.

As for brands, modern Taurus are actually pretty good for people on a budget. If you can afford it, though, get a Colt 1991A1. And change the plastic mainspring housing/trigger.
 
Old December 3rd, 2003 #4
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SMG3000 Sir,

Your .38 w/ magsafe is not bad at all.

When you can afford it I do think a .40 or .45 would be
a very good idea. Whatever you shoot best! 9mm is the
minimum!

My own choice would be a .40 or .45.
And 100% reliability right out of the box is manditory!
There are other factors to consider also.

Personal obersavitions:

The only pistols that I know of will always work 100%
right out of the box are Glock, Sig, Baretta, HK and very
expensive customized 1911s Some say Glocks are ugly -
- read below and see what you think.

Check out the 27 (.40), 36 and 30 (both .45)...
tiny, light, 1/2 the moving parts of other makes,
never 'burps', functions even when full of dirt
and can be taken Completely Apart with nothing
more than a strong Toothpick ! .

Extra mags- you can get for as little as $13-16.
Save up and buy at least 5, prefreably 10 extra mags!!!

Hi Capticy mags are more expensive but just the standard
mags - 9+1 or 10+1 of .40 or .45 are mighty comforting!!

And don't mind buying a used Glock. Glock will fix,
rebuild, replace little or no cost! Or you can do it
yourself with a toothpick hahaha!
Try that on a 1911 HaHaHa!

($325-50 used, $500+/- new)

Oh yes, and they will not rust!

Not a SA trigger like 1911's but if you can make little
ol' coke cans dance at 25-30 yards what more do you need?

Designed and built by an Austrian!
Probly a distant cus of Uncle Wolf !

If you would like to avail yourself of it there is much Glock info on-line.

Glock Talk forum members would be most helpful with any and all
questions you might have. (They LIVE for their Glocks haha).
I would avoid any reference to 'politicks' and just stick to Glocks. HA!

http://www.glocktalk.com



TONS of Good technical info here (and many other sites on web also).

GLOCK INFORMATION SPECIFICATIONS AND STUFF
http://glockmeister.com/glockinf.shtml

AKs are similiar in that they are very simple and reliable and rugged!!
30 rnd mags are a blast to empty!

Shotguns are excellent home and crowd "tamers"

Have fun!.

Last edited by no_nomen; December 3rd, 2003 at 02:51 AM.
 
Old December 3rd, 2003 #5
no_nomen
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SMG Sir,

I was working on another project and kept thinking about your desire for economy. The Kel Tec pistols are remarkable value (very inexpensive) and their quality is now very good. You might even consider both the KTs below as they both have their 'place' and a back up is a very good idea!

Early (2x+ yrs ago) in their production run there were some problems but Kel Tec will quickly fix or replace any problem. They are renounded for that. You can find great deals on used KTs and the factory will check them out and fix good as new no charge usually!

Probably the ultimate concealed pistol out there IMHO. Very tiny and extremely light weight. Long trigger pull - add a Trigger Shoe an you are 'good to go'. A little practice and the long pull becomes no problem at all. btw: the "belt Clip" accessory is fantastick!

Night Sights are a must for any pistol. anywhere from $65-80 will get you a good set of PTs or NMCs or etc.

Magsafe is very good but if you really want some 'devistating' stuff Check out RBCD!!! Even the tiny .32 becomes extremely 'effective' with RBCD.
Order directly from RBCD as itz hard to find.
see:
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/c9mmcoldnhotB.htm
and
www.rbcd.net\index.html
see Penetration and Expansion Chart (itz no joke I assure you!)
http://www.rbcd.net/Personal%20Defense%20Ammo.htm

www.kel-tec.com
Even a toll free # if you have a problem or question. 1 (800) 515-9983.

P 11 Pistol sorry for the ugly green frame- they do come in black too... hahaha


The P-11 is a semi-automatic, locked breech pistol, chambered for the 9 mm Luger cartridge.


Technical Specifications
Calibers: 9 x 19 mm Luger
Weight unloaded lbs. 14 oz. 400g
Loaded magazine 6oz. 159g
Length 5.6" 142mm
Height 4.3" 109mm
Width 1" 26mm
Barrel Length 3.1" 79mm
Sight radius 4.6" 116mm
Muzzle energy max 400 ftlbs 540J
Capacity 10+1

P 32 Pistol




The P-32 is a semi-automatic, locked breech pistol, chambered for the .32 Auto cartridge.

Technical Specifications
Calibers: .32 AUTO
Weight unloaded. 6.6 oz. 186g
Loaded magazine 2.8 oz. 81g
Length 5.1" 129mm
Height 3.5" 89mm
Width .75" 19mm

Barrel Length 2.7" 68mm
Sight radius 3.8" 96mm
Muzzle energy max 200ftlbs 240J
Capacity 7+1 rounds

Some sources of great info on KT:
Many very simple things you can do to make KTs even better if you are the least bit handy with tools!!!!
KTOG.Org - Kel-Tec Owners Group

This web page originally started out as a space for Kel-Tec P-11 9mm owners. Since its inception, KTOG has grown to encompass Kel-Tec CNC products in general. ...
http://www.ktog.org

Really Great KT info here:
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/

Last edited by no_nomen; December 3rd, 2003 at 07:55 AM.
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #6
SMG3000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacitus
9mm handguns are superior in my opinion. There are two reasons for this. Larger magazine capacity, and velocity. In simple terms the 9mm is much faster than the .45. Remember, speed kills. One hears alot of stuff about "knock down" power. This is only important if you are using a single shot gun. You have 9 more or 14 more (in a pre ban magazine) to fire at the threat. For home defense however, nothing and I mean nothing beats a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. Some people like rifles and pistols but the rounds from these can penetrate walls and possibly kill innocent by-standers. Your best bet is the shotgun. preferably, 12 gauge, with a short barrel. Check out www.maverickarms.com they are a subsidiary of Mossberg. The model 88(if you can believe it.) sells for about 200 hundred bucks. You won't find a better street howitzer for the money.
Very interesting! I would certainly choose a shotgun from that company, provided I can locate a dealer that stocks them (I'm sure there are some around me).
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #7
SMG3000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco
Being an amateur gunsmith, I can address this issue pretty well.

If you can afford a .45, get it. One shot from a .45 equals two from a 9mm. Use round hollow-points, NOT flat ones. Copper-jacketed only.

As far as a long gun, get a Mini-14 or a Mini-30 in stainless steel. Yeah, I know that you cannot get many parts for a Mini. You don't need to. They are built like tanks. Who cares?

Shotguns have no range. Forget them.

As for brands, modern Taurus are actually pretty good for people on a budget. If you can afford it, though, get a Colt 1991A1. And change the plastic mainspring housing/trigger.
Hmmm. Are Mini-14s or Mini-30s relatively cheap? And availibility may be an issue.
I was looking at this for an AK: http://www.keepshooting.com/ak47.htm Does anyone have thoughts on this distributor? I don't want to buy something thats going to bust apart in combat. I would like to pay less than 400 dollars for a quality distance weapon too!
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #8
SMG3000
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Thank you for the info no_nomen!

At the shop I go to, they allow you to rent "the whole shelf" for thirty dollars a day, meaning I can try out all the handguns if I wanted to. Then I'll be able to get a feel for my strong-suit.

I think I might get a used Glock if its in good condition!
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #9
no_nomen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMG3000
Hmmm. : http://www.keepshooting.com/ak47.htm
Does anyone have thoughts on this distributor? !
I don't know but I would be a bit wary of them because
their price on 1000 rnds of AK ammo is $130. Locally here
itz $80 and even less at gun shows.

Ammo, 7.62x39, HP, 1000rds, Russian Mfg, Wolf®
Code: AM762103
Price: $79.97
.
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #10
no_nomen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMG3000
Thank you for the info no_nomen!

At the shop I go to, they allow you to rent "the whole shelf" for thirty dollars a
day, meaning I can try out all the handguns if I wanted to. Then I'll be able to
get a feel for my strong-suit] I think I might get a used Glock if its in good
condition.
Go for it! Burn up everything you can get your hands on. Wait [if you can
stand it] for a 27 or 30. you will see one sooner or later. But in meantime try
out every pistol you can. Love those pretty pistols but Glock are best out there by far.

Visit GlockTalk and ask ??? they love ''newbees'' & will help you a bunch!
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #11
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Howdy SMG3K,

I'm not a gun guru or nothing, but here's my 2 cents.

Your .38 is pretty adequate, provided you keep it loaded with the MagSafes. I would ditch the mixed rounds in the cylinder, since if you've gotta end up shooting someone, you're not gonna be thinking about what cylinder is loaded with what.

If you want another handgun and keep the .38 as backup, you can't go wrong with a 1911 clone in .45 cal. Bear in mind Franco's point about the "round" hollowpoints, meaning the shape of the bullet when viewed from the side, as the 1911 was never designed to feed the weird bullet shapes available on the market today. The Federal 230-grain Hydrashok performs pretty well in this role (they have a 165-grainer, but why get a .45 if you're gonna use a light bullet?) Anyway, be sure to "break in" the gun with a couple of boxes of ammo before you carry it, as some guns need to smooth out the machined surfaces to function reliably. There are several makers of 1911 knock-offs that won't break the bank as well as more expensive ones. I'll leave you to research them, since I don't have any firsthand knowledge of their pros and cons. The big disadvantage of the .45 if you're on a budget is the cost of the ammo, usually about twice that of 9mm ammo, which is pretty plentiful on the market now. Bear that in mind. I turned to reloading as a way to save ammo costs, but that too costs money to get going. However, there's some fairly inexpensive reloading setups as well. Something to think about for the future, anyway.

I don't like Glocks, but that is merely a personal preference, as they are well-made guns, both accurate and highly reliable. I just don't like the way it fits in my hand or the strange trigger, but you might find it suits you well. As no_nomen suggested, get to the range and rent as many guns as you like and see which one feels right to you.

As for a long gun, you really can't go wrong with an AK if you're on a budget. Yeah, a lot of them are ugly as hell and they aren't as accurate as some other rifles, but they're highly reliable, cheap and both mags and ammo are cheap as well. Five and a quarter is a bit pricey for an AK. Sometimes, you can find them for around $300 or so, but the FFL you get it from will add a markup, so expect about $350 when it's all said and done. Another nice thing is that there are plenty of accessories for the AK out there, and you can improve yours as you get the money. Oh, used AK 30-round mags are fine, since they're built like a brick shithouse. You can pick 'em up for around $7-8 or so at gunshows.

A shotgun is also a good investment for dispatching two-legged parasites invading your house. The brands named are good choices, as is the Winchester line, which is almost as cheap (a no-frills 1300 Defender will often be found for around $225 or so). The Remington 870 is also a good choice, but a little more expensive, though there are a lot of nifty gizmos for it on the market because it is so common. I would also suggest that unless you live alone, to keep the thing loaded with birdshot (#6 or #7) for in-home use, since buckshot will sail thru interior sheetrock walls and possibly hit someone you don't want to. The birdshot is perfectly adequate at indoor ranges, (have y'all seen a #7 shot pattern at ten feet?) will make literal hamburger out of anyone and won't penetrate walls. Just aim high center-chest and you'll put them down, even if they're high on something. Trauma-room RN I know says that the docs usually just call time on those poor saps right away (ever think about trying to resolve 80 separate wound tracks and remove all those embedded pellets? No thanks.)

Lastly, you might consider a .22 rimfire rifle, not for defense, but for practice, since the .22 teaches valuable skills at a fraction of the cost (less than $10 for 500+ rounds of .22LR) and the fact that it's a lot quieter than an AK might let you practice outside if you can find a secluded spot without attracting attention and having to pay range fees every time you want to shoot (depending on where you live of course). There are plenty of .22 rifles on the market and the Ruger 10/22 is a good buy at around $150 or so. Other makes are far cheaper, but the quality is more varied of course.

Lastly, as a bargain hunter, start checking the classifieds for guns that interest you. It's especially common this time of year to see guns for sale, since some improvident people need the cash for buying holiday gifts so their wife will give 'em a blowjob they wouldn't otherwise get. So, take advantage of their financial incaution and keep a gun in White hands! Also, you get a gun without a paper trail as an added bonus. You need to be careful you aren't getting a gun that's been worn out or abused of course, but for .22s, classifieds are a good route to go, since it's hard to wear out a .22 barrel from shooting.

Best,

MST

P.S. You might want to go grab a copy of Shotgun News to see what is out there and what retail prices are, as well as looking for deals on ammo and such. I think WallyMart might even carry it, if you can stand going to one of those multicultural shopping disasters.

Last edited by MadScienceType; December 4th, 2003 at 04:01 PM.
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #12
no_nomen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadScienceType
Howdy SMG3K,
If you want another handgun and keep the .38 as backup, MST
P.S. You might want to go grab a copy of Shotgun News
to see what is out there and what retail prices are, as well as
looking for deals on ammo and such. I think WallyMart might
even carry it, if you can stand going to one of those
multicultural shopping disasters.
SIEGE ! MST,

Good advice Sir! All of the above. I'm not a 'gun guru' either Sir.
Just an 'old man' who has 'been there - done that'. Cost me a
lot of $$$ and had a lot of fun hahaha! Love 'em all!

One reason I recomend Glock (esply for Folks just getting started)
over 1911s is Glock's 100% reliability right out of the box. Glocks \
never seem to have a problem feeding even the widest mouthed
hollow point or any type of ammo- they eat everything haha. There's
nothing worse than hearing a 'click' instead of a 'bang' when you
really need a ''bang''! I "like" lot of others but my bottom
line is function. 100% reliability is manditory!

If you have time to spend w/ local gun clubs & internet forums much
free info'/learning can be obtained and good deals may be found.
Better to wait and watch for a private sale for sure!

And as stated above:

Check out the 27 (.40), 36 and 30 (both .45)...
tiny, light, 1/2 the moving parts of other makes,
never 'burps', functions even when full of dirt
and can be taken Completely Apart with nothing
more than a strong Toothpick ! .

Extra mags- you can get for as little as $13-16.
Save up and buy at least 5, prefreably 10 extra mags!!!

Hi Capticy mags are more expensive but just the standard
mags - 9+1 or 10+1 of .40 or .45 are mighty comforting!!

And don't mind buying a used Glock. Glock will fix,
rebuild, replace little or no cost! Or you can do it
yourself with a toothpick hahaha!
Try that on a 1911 HaHaHa!

Last edited by no_nomen; December 4th, 2003 at 07:03 PM.
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #13
Blondie
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I love my Rem 870 youth model .20, and I love my revolvers. If I could afford a long gun right now, I would go for an AR shortie! What a great little gun, no kick and really accurate. Love them!

Forget about semi's for a beginner. The good ole double action revolver, point and shoot is a no-brainer gun, especially if you're a blonde AND a woman! You can't make a mistake! (But if someone made me have a semi, I would take a Beretta 92!)

 
Old December 4th, 2003 #14
no_nomen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondie
I love my Rem 870 youth model .20, and I love my revolvers.
If I could afford a long gun right now, I would go for an AR shortie!
What a great little gun, no kick and really accurate. Love them!

Forget about semi's for a beginner. The good ole double action
revolver, point and shoot is a no-brainer gun, especially if you're
a blonde AND a woman! You can't make a mistake! (But if someone
made me have a semi, I would take a Beretta 92!)
Blondie,

Right you are about the 870! And the AK shorty - wonderful!
And revolvers serve their purpose very well! Beretta 92!
What a blast for a range pistol! Love 'em! And HiPowers also!
But damn 92s are big! :>)

.
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #15
SMG3000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no_nomen
I don't know but I would be a bit wary of them because
their price on 1000 rnds of AK ammo is $130. Locally here
itz $80 and even less at gun shows.

Ammo, 7.62x39, HP, 1000rds, Russian Mfg, Wolf®
Code: AM762103
Price: $79.97
.
Thank you for warning me. I guess if I go to a gunshow I'd see things for much cheaper than at commercial shops, but I only worry I'll end up with a dud, either cruddy ammo (since I don't know much about ammo) or a faulty rifle.

I do think I will get an AK before I purchase another handgun. I think I'd hate to be caught in a civil war without one.
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #16
SMG3000
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Thanks all for the other advice too, I will retain enough to really help me out when it comes time to purchase!

I will remember to use birdshot indoors when I get a shotgun, and I'm glad my .38 is not considered silly

The reason I alternate ammo is because I figure if one wont do it, another will. Someone at the range also suggested this tactic. The full-metal jackets should penetrate thick clothing, the MagSafes are to hopefully put them out of my misery (so he cant sue or retaliate in person) and the hollowpoints are to knock them down before they can reach me with a knife, assuming they aren't shooting at me instead.
I feel more comfortable that way, but...

Last edited by SMG3000; December 4th, 2003 at 09:56 PM.
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMG3000
I guess if I go to a gunshow I'd see things for much cheaper
than at commercial shops, but I only worry I'll end up with a dud, either cruddy
ammo (since I don't know much about ammo) or a faulty rifle.

I do think I will get an AK before I purchase another handgun. I think I'd hate to be caught in a civil war without one.
SMG,

You can lear alot about what other Folks have had bad and good experiences
w/ at glock talk and other forums. btw: AKs love cheap Wolf ammo... Glocks do
also eat 'em like candy!

.
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #18
Franco
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The Mini-14 goes for around $500 in Arizona. I would get a stainless "Ranch" version if possible, which has scope mounts and a tip-up site.
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #19
Steve B
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Some great gun info here. I'm also a Glock fan. Unlike Madscience Type I find the Glock fits well in my hand and has a nice feel and balance to it. The 45 cal Glock 21 beats all handguns in my opinion and the thing is damn near indestructable.I prefer the 45 to 9mm becase as the old saying goes the 9 just doesn't have the knock down power of the 45. I have friends in law inforcement who tell me this all the time and they know from first hand experience.

I tried out the 45 cal model 1911 for comparison to the Glock 21 but the 1911 seemed a little heavy and the rate of fire was slower than the Glock. Or maybe it was just my imagination, I donno.

Speaking of shotguns, the Remington model 870 Marine Magnum is a gun that to me just looks good and is deadly! Nickel plated, corosion resistant, 18 inch barrell. Just an outstanding riot gun for close quarter combat. You point one of these bad nasties at a perp and he'll probably die of a heart attack before you can cut him in half.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/shotguns/870mrmag.htm
 
Old December 4th, 2003 #20
no_nomen
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Default Welcome to the DarkSide Sir HaHa !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B
Some great gun info here. I'm also a Glock fan.
Unlike Madscience Type I find the Glock fits well in my hand and
has a nice feel and balance to it. The 45 cal Glock 21 beats all
handguns in my opinion and the thing is damn near indestructable.
I prefer the 45 to 9mm becase as the old saying goes the 9 just
doesn't have the knock down power of the 45. I have friends in
law inforcement who tell me this all the time and they know from
first hand experience.

870 Marine Magnum ...You point one of these bad nasties at a perp
and he'll probably die of a heart attack before you can cut him in half.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/shotguns/870mrmag.htm
Steve B Sir,

Love the 21 ! but itz a bit large for me. Have you 'tried out' the 30 and 36?
The 36 is a real blast though I am more comforted by the hi-cap of the 30.

The 870MM? A real tear-or!

Hey I love 'em all! KeepOnaFirinTillTheyQuitaFloppin'

.
 
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