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Old January 15th, 2012 #21
Thomas de Aynesworth
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Originally Posted by alicia_victoria View Post
It makes perfect sense.
The theory that the Iberians of the Caucasus and the Iberians of the Peninsula is highly dubious to anyone but Caucasian romantics.

Last edited by Thomas de Aynesworth; January 15th, 2012 at 09:36 PM.
 
Old January 15th, 2012 #22
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Originally Posted by alicia_victoria View Post
Yes, very sure.
.....Huh. Well in that case, I would be inclined to make the assessment that you're of Near Eastern origin; you don't look very Caucasoid.


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Originally Posted by MikeTodd View Post
I meant from Transylvania.
Oh, shut the fuck up.
 
Old January 15th, 2012 #23
Steven L. Akins
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Originally Posted by alicia_victoria View Post
Wow!!!!


I didn't know about the origin of the nickname "Peninsula Iberica". This is what I needed; no wonder I always get asked if I'm from that area.
There was an awful lot of migration going on all across Europe from prehistoric times on. The Cimmerians originated in the Crimea, near Caucasian Iberia, along the northern shores of the Black Sea, but some of them migrated west across Europe and ended up settling in the Himmerland of the Jutland Peninsula of what is now Denmark, where their descendants were known as the Cimbri.





Later the Cimbri were driven out of the Himmerland by an invading Germanic tribe known as the Dani (Danes). Some of the Cimbri became allies of the Belgae in what is now Belgium; from there, some migrated across the English Channel and settled in Britain where their descendants became known as the Cymry, and gave their name to the Cambrian mountains in what is now Wales, as well as Cumbria, in what is now northwestern England.



Likewise the Gauls or Gallic tribes originated in what was once part of ancient Scythia, in the province of Galicia in Eastern Europe, located on the Polish-Ukranian border:



The Gallic tribes migrated westward across Europe, occupying present day France, Belgium, parts of Spain, and northern Italy. The region of Galicia, in northwestern Spain is named for them:


Last edited by Steven L. Akins; January 15th, 2012 at 10:01 PM.
 
Old January 15th, 2012 #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
.....Huh. Well in that case, I would be inclined to make the assessment that you're of Near Eastern origin; you don't look very Caucasoid.
Middle Eastern makes a lot of sense, since Andalucia (where my mother's side of the family is) was inhabited by Moors, but the Amerindian one is soooo far fetch I mean, how can I be Amerindian when nobody in my bloodline is from Indigenous origin?!
 
Old January 15th, 2012 #25
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Originally Posted by alicia_victoria View Post
Middle Eastern makes a lot of sense, since Andalucia (where my mother's side of the family is) was inhabited by Moors
Actually I was referring to a Mongoloid type indigenous to Asia; not Moorish (then again, I'm certainly no expert on this matter).

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but the Amerindian one is soooo far fetch I mean, how can I be Amerindian when nobody in my bloodline is from Indigenous origin?!

In my opinion, you look Amerindian.
 
Old January 15th, 2012 #26
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Quote:
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Actually I was referring to a Mongoloid type indigenous to Asia; not Moorish (then again, I'm certainly no expert on this matter).


In my opinion, you look Amerindian.
Ok. Next.
 
Old January 15th, 2012 #27
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It is funny, I typically associate Southern Europeans as short, stocky people with short limbs. You seem to be the opposite, I've seen Slavic women with almost your exact profile, sans the eye pigmentation. If I had to guess, those qualities would have been atavistic from the Germanic invasions into Spain, coupled with hardy genes from Ireland. The high cheek bones is the only thing that throws me off, possibly inherited from some kind of Western Slavic influence, or perhaps even atavism from the Proto-Slavic Vandal tribes.

At either rate, those saying to lack "Caucasoidalness" are quite off, to say the least.
 
Old January 15th, 2012 #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas de Aynesworth View Post
It is funny, I typically associate Southern Europeans as short, stocky people with short limbs. You seem to be the opposite, I've seen Slavic women with almost your exact profile, sans the eye pigmentation. If I had to guess, those qualities would have been atavistic from the Germanic invasions into Spain, coupled with hardy genes from Ireland. The high cheek bones is the only thing that throws me off, possibly inherited from some kind of Western Slavic influence, or perhaps even atavism from the Proto-Slavic Vandal tribes.

At either rate, those saying to lack "Caucasoidalness" are quite off, to say the least.
I know some girls from Russia, Lithuania, and Kazakhstan who have dark eyes just like me; my brothers look like me as well, but they do have lighter eyes (but their skin is slightly darker, due to prolonged beach time).
 
Old January 16th, 2012 #29
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Originally Posted by alicia_victoria View Post
I got the answers I was looking for; thank very much all of you for helping a curious woman.


Mods; this thread can be closed at anytime now. See y'all in the language forums.
Sir may I?.....no disrespect Sir, but i don't think that's how things work around here....Sir.
 
Old January 16th, 2012 #30
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Originally Posted by Thomas de Aynesworth View Post
It is funny, I typically associate Southern Europeans as short, stocky people with short limbs.
You mean, like this:

 
Old January 16th, 2012 #31
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Originally Posted by Thomas de Aynesworth View Post
The theory that the Iberians of the Caucasus and the Iberians of the Peninsula is highly dubious to anyone but Caucasian romantics.
What? You think people didn't get around 2500 years ago?

Let me show you something...


See this bowl? It's known as the Gundestrup Cauldron:



It was found here, in the Himmerland of the Danish Jutland Peninsula:



It belonged to an ancient Gallic tribe known as the Cimbri, who once occupied the Jutland Peninsula:



Quote:
"As for the Cimbri, much of what is said about them is either incorrect or highly unlikely. For example, one cannot accept that the reason for their pirate-like and nomadic existence is because they were driven from the peninsula that they formerly inhabited due to its having been flooded by a great wave of the sea; for in fact they still occupy the country that they held in earlier times; and they sent as a present to Augustus the most sacred cauldron in their country, with a plea for his friendship and for an amnesty of their earlier offences, and when their petition was granted they set sail for home.....the Cimbri, being a piratical and wandering folk, made an expedition even as far as the region of Lake Maeotis, and that also the "Cimmerian" Bosporus was named after them, being equivalent to "Cimbrian," the Greeks naming the Cimbri "Cimmerii."

"Writers report a custom of the Cimbri to this effect: Their wives, who would accompany them on their expeditions, were attended by priestesses who were seers; these were grey-haired, clad in white, with flaxen cloaks fastened on with clasps, girt with girdles of bronze, and bare-footed; now sword in hand these priestesses would meet with the prisoners of war throughout the camp, and having first crowned them with wreaths would lead them to a brazen vessel of about twenty amphorae; and they would erect an altar which the priestess would attend, and then, bending over the cauldron, would cut the throat of each prisoner after he had been lifted up; and from the blood that poured forth into the vessel some of the priestesses would draw a prophecy."

- Strabo
(below) scene from the Gundestrup Cauldron showing a captured war prisoner being sacrificed as described above by Strabo:


The Gundestrup Cauldron was made here however, in Thrace:



At the time, the Cimbri and other Gallic tribes occupied portions of the region in and around Thrace:

Quote:
"There are those who say that Gaul was once wide and large enough to reach from the furthest sea and the arctic regions to the Maeotic Sea eastward, where it bordered on Pontic Scythia, and from that point on the Gauls and Scythians were mingled together....so that the whole legion was generally known by the name of Gallo-Scythians. Others say that the Cimmerii, anciently known to the Greeks, were only a small part of the nation, who were driven out upon some quarrel among the Scythians, and passed all along from the Maeotic Sea to Asia, under the conduct of one Lygdamis; and that the greater and more warlike part of them still inhabit the remotest regions lying upon the outer ocean. These are said to live in a densely wooded country hardly penetrable by sunlight, the trees being so close and thick, extending into the interior as far as the Hercynian forest....and from this region the people, anciently called Cimmerii, and thereafter, by a slight change, Cimbri"

- Plutarch
Another tribe known as the Getae also occupied part of this region north of Thrace:



And like the Cimbri, the Getae migrated across Europe eventually settling in southern Sweden, where their descendants became known as the Geats:



If the Cimbri and the Geats could travel freely from the shores of the Black Sea all the way to Scandinavia, what makes you think it is improbable that Iberians from the Caucassus were a different people from the Iberians of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain)?

Last edited by Steven L. Akins; January 17th, 2012 at 09:05 AM.
 
Old January 16th, 2012 #32
Thomas de Aynesworth
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The improbability would stem from the lack of any evidence of this kind that links the Caucasian Iberians with the Iberians from the peninsula. So far, I have yet to see genetic, archaeological or primary literary sources confirming this. What I have seen are writers from the 11th c. AD onwards from the Caucasus harp on about a brotherhood between the two Iberias. I have never stated that migration did not occur, so you may dispense with the straw man now.

I would believe that Venus-descended Aeneas of Troy sailed and rode for a decade to found the Latin state that would become Rome before I believed in some undocumented Iberian kinship based on the arbitrary naming of the regions by the Romans.

Furthermore, my explanation that her traits could be atavistic from the Germanic influence in Iberia is proof enough that I have just claimed the opposite.
 
Old January 16th, 2012 #33
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Originally Posted by Thomas de Aynesworth View Post
The improbability would stem from the lack of any evidence of this kind that links the Caucasian Iberians with the Iberians from the peninsula. So far, I have yet to see genetic, archaeological or primary literary sources confirming this. What I have seen are writers from the 11th c. AD onwards from the Caucasus harp on about a brotherhood between the two Iberias. I have never stated that migration did not occur, so you may dispense with the straw man now.

I would believe that Venus-descended Aeneas of Troy sailed and rode for a decade to found the Latin state that would become Rome before I believed in some undocumented Iberian kinship based on the arbitrary naming of the regions by the Romans.

Furthermore, my explanation that her traits could be atavistic from the Germanic influence in Iberia is proof enough that I have just claimed the opposite.
The evidence for a westward migration by Caucasian Iberians into what is now Spain is apparent in the Iberian alphabet, which shows marked similarities to other scripts which evolved in the Near East:



The chart below shows Iberian letters compared to their counterparts in the Greek and Phoenician alphabets:





The use of Iberian scripts and their associated languages gradually declined as the Roman Empire conquered and latinized the population of what is now Spain. They were gradually forgotten until the 18th century when antiquarians began to rediscover and decipher the ancient texts.



Above: The Botorrita Inscription – on four bronze plaques found near Zaragoza in Aragon in northern Spain. The plaques were discovered in 1970, 1979 and 1994. They are dated to the first century BC.


Last edited by Steven L. Akins; January 16th, 2012 at 01:09 PM.
 
Old January 16th, 2012 #34
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These folks will need a swab from you, and then say where your DNA is from.
It's always best to get two opinions.

http://www.familytreedna.com/

http://www.oxfordancestors.com/

http://www.smgf.org/

There are different tests for men and women, but if you already have some family info :

Information and Maps on Y-DNA haplogroups
Y-haplogroups World Map
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf


Y-Haplogroups brief descriptions and regional origins
http://www.roperld.com/YBiallelicHaplogroups.htm
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Old January 16th, 2012 #35
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The problem with the alphabetical argument is that if one were say, use this criteria for the understanding of any movement of peoples, then one would end up with a vision of the world in which the Greeks migrated from Phoenicia (given that both Linear A and B descend from Phoenician), the Etruscan people coming from Greece (that the Etruscan alphabet seems to have been developed from Linear B) and worse yet, the Germans are in fact Etruscans (as the case for the German Futhark being a development of the Etruscanized Linear B script has been concisely made).

So no, an alphabet in Iberia descended from Phoenician script does not convince or even surprise me. Given that the Phoenicians were well seated in Carthage by the time in question (1st c. BC) and that the Carthaginians controlled a swathe of the Iberian Peninsula, it is quite obvious as to why the Iberian script developed as it did. Another thing to note, if the Iberians migrated from Caucasian Iberia a few thousand years ago, then it would be quite a stretch to use an alphabet used by the Phoenicians that apparently influenced the Iberian alphabet when the earliest use of Phoenician comes from around the 1st millennia BC, after the alleged sojourn you envision.
 
Old January 16th, 2012 #36
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Originally Posted by Thomas de Aynesworth View Post
The problem with the alphabetical argument is that if one were say, use this criteria for the understanding of any movement of peoples, then one would end up with a vision of the world in which the Greeks migrated from Phoenicia (given that both Linear A and B descend from Phoenician), the Etruscan people coming from Greece (that the Etruscan alphabet seems to have been developed from Linear B) and worse yet, the Germans are in fact Etruscans (as the case for the German Futhark being a development of the Etruscanized Linear B script has been concisely made).

So no, an alphabet in Iberia descended from Phoenician script does not convince or even surprise me. Given that the Phoenicians were well seated in Carthage by the time in question (1st c. BC) and that the Carthaginians controlled a swathe of the Iberian Peninsula, it is quite obvious as to why the Iberian script developed as it did. Another thing to note, if the Iberians migrated from Caucasian Iberia a few thousand years ago, then it would be quite a stretch to use an alphabet used by the Phoenicians that apparently influenced the Iberian alphabet when the earliest use of Phoenician comes from around the 1st millennia BC, after the alleged sojourn you envision.
So you have no problem understanding that there were Greek colonies along the Mediterranean coastline of what is now Spain; yet you think it is a bit far fetched that the Iberians of the Caucasus were the ancestors of the Iberians that inhabited parts of Spain?

Kind of strange that two tribes found on opposite ends of a continent would both be called by the same name and yet have no connection to each other, don't you think? Especially when everyone else around them was migrating from nearby areas in Eastern Europe (Cimmerians, Geats, Gallic tribes, etc.) and resettling in nearby areas of Western Europe.




Last edited by Steven L. Akins; January 16th, 2012 at 07:36 PM.
 
Old January 16th, 2012 #37
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Without serious genetic evidence, epigraphic and literary evidence (Strabo, Herodotus etc. all make claims for Etruscan origins, as well as Strabo's lengthy Geographic work covering most of the tribes, yet fails to mention Eastern origins for the Iberians) I would say that the Iberian east-west migrationary theory to be weak at best.
 
Old January 16th, 2012 #38
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Diodorus Siculus gives the best account of the various tribes that inhabited ancient Europe in his Histories, compiled in the first century B.C.:

Quote:
And now it will be worth while to declare that which multitudes we altogether ignorant of. Those who inhabit the inland parts beyond Massilia, and about the Alps, and on this side the Pyrenean mountains, are called Celts; but those that inhabit below this part called Celtica, southward to the ocean and the mountain Hyrcinus, and all as far as Scythia, are called Gauls. But the Romans call all these people generally by one and the same name, Gauls. The women here are both as tall and as courageous as the men. The children, for the most part, from their very birth are white-headed; but when they grow up to men's estate, their hair changes in colour like to their parents. Those towards the north, and bordering upon Scythia, are so exceeding fierce arid cruel, that (as report goes) they eat men, like the Britains that inhabit Iris.

They are so noted for a fierce and warlike people, that some have thought them to be those that anciently overran all Asia, and were then called Cimerians, and who are now (through length of time) with a little alteration, called Cimbrians.

Anciently they gave themselves to rapine and spoil, wasting and destroying other countries, and slighted and despised all other people. These are they that took Rome, and robbed the temple at Delphos. These brought a great part of Europe and Asia under tribute, and possessed themselves of some of the countries of those they subdued. Because of their mixture with the Grecians, they were at last called Gallo-Grecians. They often routed and destroyed many great armies of the Romans....

Having spoken of the Celts, we shall now give an account of their neighbours the Celtiberians. The two nations Celts and Iberians, heretofore breaking forth into a war about the boundaries of their countries, at length agreed to inhabit together promiscuously, and so marrying one with another, their issue and posterity (they say) afterwards were called Celtiberians. Two potent nations being thus united, and possessed likewise of a rich and fertile country, these Celtiberians became very famous and renowned; so that the Romans had much ado to subdue them after long and tedious wars with them. These Celtiberians bring into the field not only stout and valiant horsemen, but brave foot, both for strength and hardiness able to undergo all manner of labour and toil. They wear black rough cassocks made of wool, like to goat's hair. Some of them are armed with the Gaulish light shields, others with bucklers as big as shields, and wear greaves about their legs made of rough hair, and brazen helmets upon their heads, adorned with red plumes. They carry two-edged swords exactly tempered with steel, and have daggers beside, of a span long, which they make use of in close fights. They make weapons and darts in an admirable manner; for they bury plates of iron so long under ground, till the rust hath consumed the weaker part, and so the rest becomes more strong and firm. Of this they make their swords and other warlike weapons; and with these arms, thus tempered, they so cut through every thing in their way, that neither shield, helmet, nor bone can withstand them. And because they are furnished with two swords, the horse, when they have routed the enemy, alight and join with the foot, and fight to admiration.....

As to their manners, they are very cruel towards their enemies and other malefactors, but very courteous and civil to strangers; for to all such, from what place soever they come, they readily and freely entertain them, and strive who shall perform the greatest office of kindness and respect. Those who are attended upon by strangers they commend and esteem them as friends of the gods. They live upon all sorts of flesh in great plenty, and their drink is made of honey, their country abounding therewith: but they buy wine jdso 'of the merchants that traffic thither.

Of those that border upon them, the most civilized nations are the Vaccĉi, who every year divide the lands among them, and then till and plough it, and after the harvest, distribute the fruits, allotting to every one their share; and therefore it is death to steal, or under-handedly to convey away any thing from the husbandman. Those they call Lusitanians are the most valiant of all the Cimbri. These, in, times of war, carry little targets made of bowel strings, so strong and firm, as completely to guard and defend their bodies. In fights they manage these, so nimbly whirling them about here and there, that with a great deal of art they avoid and repel every dart that is cast at them.

They use hooked saunians made all of iron, and wear swords and helmets like to those of the Celtiberians. They throw their darts at a great distance, and yet are sure to hit their mark, and wound deeply: being of active and nimble bodies, they can easily fly from, or pursue their enemy, as there is occasion : but when they are under hardships, they cannot endure near so much as the Celtiberians. In time of peace, they have a kind of a light and airy way of dancing, which requires great agility and nimbleness of the legs and thighs. In time of war they march observing-time and measure; and sing the paeans when they are just ready to charge the enemy.

The Iberians, especially the Lusitanians, are singular in one thing that they do ; for those that are young and pressed with want, but yet are strong and courageous. get together upon the tops of the mountains, and furnish themselves with arms; and having made up a considerable body, make incursions into Iberia, and heap up riches by thieving and robbery; and this is their constant practice in despite of all hazard whatsoever; for being lightly armed, and nimble of foot, they are not easily surprised. And indeed steep and craggy mountains are to them as their natural country, and to these they fly for shelter, because there is no way in those places for great armies to pass. And therefore though the Romans often set upon them, and in some measure have curbed them, yet they were never able wholly to put an end to their thieving and robbing.

Having related what concerns the Iberians, we conceive it not impertinent to say something of their silver mines. For almost all this country is full of such mines, whence is dug very good and pure silver; from whence those that deal in that metal, gain great profit.

And in the former book we have spoken of the Pyrenean mountains in Iberia, when we treated of the acts and achievements of Hercules these are the highest and greatest of all others; for from the south sea, almost as far as to the northern ocean, they divide Gaul from Iberia and Celtiberia, running out for the space of three thousand furlongs. These places being full of woods, and thick of trees, it is reported, that in antient time this mountainous tract was set on fire by some shepherds, which continuing burning for many days together, (whence the mountains were called Pyrenean), the parched superfices of the earth sweated, abundance of silver and the ore being melted, the metal flowed down in streams of pure silver, like a river; the use whereof being unknown to the inhabitants, the Phoenician merchants bought it for trifles given for it in exchange, and by transporting it into Greece, Asia, and all other nations, greatly enriched themselves; and such was their covetousness, that when, they had fully loaded their ships, and had much more silver to bring aboard, they cut off the lead from their anchors, and made use of silver instead of the other.....

In many places of Spain there is found also tin; but not upon the surface of the ground, as some historians report, but they dig it up, and melt it down as they do gold and silver. Above Lusitania there is much of this tin metal, that is, in the islands lying in the ocean over against Iberia, which are therefore called Cassiterides; and much of it likewise is transported out of Britain into Gaul, the opposite continent, which the merchants carry on horseback through the heart of Celtica to Marseilles, and the city called Narbo, which city is a Roman colony, and the greatest mart town for wealth and trade in those parts.
And thus, as we see, Diodorus Siculus, in the first century B.C. identifies the Iberians of Spain as being descended from the Pontic Cimmerians, who at one time inhabited Caucasian Iberia:




Last edited by Steven L. Akins; January 16th, 2012 at 09:31 PM.
 
Old January 16th, 2012 #39
Thomas de Aynesworth
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Eh, I am not above reneging on my comment if plausible evidence were brought forth, but for now I would argue for an autochthonous origin for the Iberians.
 
Old January 20th, 2012 #40
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Pitty, i didnt saw the pictures.
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